J20 Shock to PLAAF

[undeadmyrmidon]

SU57 is hardly an "Indian platform" mate... You may be partly funding its development and buying it later, but when will the Indian air Force get its hands on one? In the early 2020's?

The PLAAF just started developing operational procedures and tactics for operating 5th generation aircraft in 2017 and they have a long way to go. The IAF isn't even off the ground yet in that regard.

We will get Su 57 in 2025 ish. Till then the closest in the entire world is Rafale. Guess whos buying that.

 

[J20!]

Here is your J 20s 'inspiration'.

Back to that are we? So I guess Tejas is a mirage 2000?

Mig 1.44 and j20 are so aerodynamically dissimilar, its the mark of a fanboy to suggest that one is a copy of the other.

The cancelled J9VI is the inspiration for the J20:

Back in 2012 when fanboys where making those same claims I posted Dr. Song Wencong's (Yang mei's mentor) 2001 paper. Read and understand.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-86#post-555429

The J20 programme is decades old, the fruit of years of R&D and testing.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Trolling aside.....

I think there are few chinks in the armor. Let me point out them and maybe someone would help me analyse them even more.......

Scenario 1

Blue: J20 * 2, with lensen lens, only carries Mid-Range AAM
Red: Several 3.5x gen fighter + Several 3x gen fighter + KJ500 AWACs
Blue Target: Kill KJ500 AWACs

Process:
J20 entered by low altitude, kills 3x gen 1 by 1,
KJ500 turned to the opposite and ran, called 3.5x back
J20 tried to make sure of kill, was too close to KJ500, KJ500 downed but located J20 in radar, distributed to 3.5x via datalink,
J20 out of AAM and ran
3.5x AESA was able to see through the ECM from J20

Result:
Red: KJ500 AWACs killed. All 3x killed, lots of 3.5x killed.
Blue: 1 J20 killed.

A low flying fighter missile launches will have very low ranges. Not only that whenever a fighter is targeted, it's RWR goes full alert and gives all kinds of warning signals. Does this mean that J-10b & J-10cs neither has RWR(a very basic equipment from 3rd gen fighters like F-4 had over 50yrs ago!!??) or Jamming systems which is kind of must in 21 century fighter or pilot skills to evade incoming missiles.

What is lacking....

According to @J20! The downed J20 was hit by J-10C from 18km. J-10B didn't even notice the stealthy J-20.....

It is then thought that the J-20 would have at least participated in two types of combat scenarios. The first is to assess the ability of the aircraft to conduct aerial combat as a direct responder, in the face of singular adversaries or reinforced by multiplying means in the air and on the ground. intercept "or" sweep "to eliminate any kind of threat from the sky to pave the way for the squadrons that follow.

For that, several cases would have been unfolded, in which the J-20 always intervened in pairs. For example, there is the case of two J-20s in BVR against a number of J-10B and J-10C which are supported by an AWACS KJ-500, in which one of the two J-20s would have managed to shoot down the AWACS by surprise thanks to its stealth and range of its new Air-Air missile, while the other was busy entertaining and chasing the escort apparatus. A J-20 was reportedly shot down by a J-10C with active-scan radar, which was able to locate and lock the stealth fighter a short distance within 18 km, while all J-10Bs and half of the J-10C would have been down at the end.

The only difference(in terms of avionics) between J-10B and J-10C is the air cooled AESA radar KLJ-7A and the only AESA radar on the Chinese operational aircraft.

If an air cooled AESA in a look down-shoot down mode(I have a theory to believe that it was a look down-shoot down mode and I could be wrong too)can down(from 18km) a J-20, then what would liquid cooled GaN based radar, would do to J-20....give it a thought....

Survival of 4.5 or 5 gen fighters depend on their EW abilities. If J-20 couldn't jam air cooled AESA radar, then there is no escape from GaN radars...

Coming to my theory.....

J-10B and J-10C both have same IRST (If I am wrong, then please provide an official source that J-10C uses different IRST). We all know that J-20 uses(as of now) AL-31 engine derivative, which produces lots of heat. Why didn't IRST detect J-20, the only reason I could come up is J-20's flying very low and very close to J-10s (J-20s sneaked that close without being detected even in the presence of AWACS, I still am unable to come to terms on how it happened, but nevertheless it happened as per the scenario........) If only J-10C had noticed and shot down the J-20 using AESA, then I see no other way than in look down-shoot down mode. If This is possible in any other way, then please explain it.

This is very poor simulation even to assume that it had been run. Many variables had been omitted like RWR, Jamming, IRST, pilot skills to evade incoming missiles, consequence of low altitude missiles launch, IR guided missiles and he'll lot of other things....

This scenario had been written for consumption of 2-cents, it's wasn't even written by a military person (based on the missing pieces).

Now, I don't mean that J-20 or any of Chinese equipment is this bad, but we(civilians) just don't know their capabilities yet.

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Back to that are we? So I guess Tejas is a mirage 2000?

Mig 1.44 and j20 are so aerodynamically dissimilar, its the mark of a fanboy to suggest that one is a copy of the other.

The cancelled J9VI is the inspiration for the J20:

Back in 2012 when fanboys where making those same claims I posted Dr. Song Wencong's (Yang mei's mentor) 2001 paper. Read and understand.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-86#post-555429

The J20 programme is decades old, the fruit of years of R&D and testing.

Ctrl + C / Ctrl + V is all thats there.

 

[asianobserve]

Back to that are we? So I guess Tejas is a mirage 2000?

Mig 1.44 and j20 are so aerodynamically dissimilar, its the mark of a fanboy to suggest that one is a copy of the other.

The cancelled J9VI is the inspiration for the J20:

Back in 2012 when fanboys where making those same claims I posted Dr. Song Wencong's (Yang mei's mentor) 2001 paper. Read and understand.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-86#post-555429

The J20 programme is decades old, the fruit of years of R&D and testing.

You have to admit that J-20 is primarily based on Mig 1.44. But still China did a good job of updating its design and I'm sure its avionics are totally different from Mig's original design.

 

[rockdog]

Ctrl + C / Ctrl + V is all thats there.

You have to admit that J-20 is primarily based on Mig 1.44. But still China did a good job of updating its design and I'm sure its avionics are totally different from Mig's original design.

In the aviation industry, any small change on air-frame needs massive calculation and experiment, that's why for Boeing 787 just the new Wings cost 1 billion USD.

For heavy fighter like F22, J20, even the DSI intake takes years of research, i can say AVIC inspired by LM, but can we say J20 also based on F35?

Thanks to China's world top level of supercomputer squad, AVIC would get J20, JF17, J10C, J31 done for those nice intakes supported by supercomputer's calculation.

You would compare how complicated mig1.44 and how clean the J20 just on intake, it reduce the complexity and weight remarkably.

I won't blame the people who just claimed the J20 is a copy of Mig1.44, it's might not because of the ignorance or stupidity;

I think it's more like commom Indian people are lack of industrial education and sense. I think India is still not a industrialized nation, that's why there are such strange ideas, it's just like Chinese were not educated the concept of industrialization and made stupid and huge mistake on 1960s', famous as Great Leap Forward.

When Indian aviation industry truly go through the whole process on designing and producing at least a 4th Gen heavy fighter, not purchasing, financing or waiting such project, they will know how hard it is.

 

[asianobserve]

In the aviation industry, any small change on air-frame needs massive calculation and experiment, that's why for Boeing 787 just the new Wings cost 1 billion USD.

For heavy fighter like F22, J20, even the DSI intake takes years of research, i can say AVIC inspired by LM, but can we say J20 also based on F35?

Thanks to China's world top level of supercomputer squad, AVIC would get J20, JF17, J10C, J31 done for those nice intakes supported by supercomputer's calculation.

You would compare how complicated mig1.44 and how clean the J20 just on intake, it reduce the complexity and weight remarkably.

I won't blame the people who just claimed the J20 is a copy of Mig1.44, it's might not because of the ignorance or stupidity;

I think it's more like commom Indian people are lack of industrial education and sense. I think India is still not a industrialized nation, that's why there are such strange ideas, it's just like Chinese were not educated the concept of industrialization and made stupid and huge mistake on 1960s', famous as Great Leap Forward.

When Indian aviation industry truly go through the whole process on designing and producing at least a 4th Gen heavy fighter, not purchasing, financing or waiting such project, they will know how hard it is.

While it's true that it takes a lot of work to make small changes to an aircraft's design still China would not have achieved the development pace it did with the J-20 had it not bought the design of the Mig 1.44. Tweaking designs is still much easier than starting from scratch.

 

[badguy2000]

the success of j20 need the support from All kinds of industry sections from skews to supercomputers.

any of those industry sections costs huge money,talents and time.

the procession to finish building those sections is called industrialization.

not All countries can finish industrialuzation.(many countries like argentina fail and are trape in mid~income trapes).
in fact,aftet WW ii,only 3 economies (s.korea,taiwan and mainland china) have successfully been lifted to the club of industrialized societies from traditonal societies,except city~economies like hongkong.(japan and east europe were moderate industrialized before WW II)



india needs more industrialization before working out its own decent birds. just start from raising literacy rate/public education and training more disciplined pucntual industry labour/technicians. then fix india infrastructures, economy growth will come naturely.


china had finished such mass~education/training During Mao era even before 1980.when Deng xiaoping opened the door of china,china had millions of well~educated disciplined industry labour/technicians already.
the combination of those ready excellent industry labour ,foreign capital and world best infrastruture works out economic miracles soon.

 

[Adioz]

A low flying fighter missile launches will have very low ranges

Not to mention the fact that the missile's terminal kinetic performance is going to be severely degraded. If PLAAF pilots could not handle evasion of such missiles, then instead of talking about how J-20 taught the PLAAF a lesson, maybe we should be talking about how this incident revealed the kind of rookies the pilots in the OPFOR were.
Now there are two possibilities:-

• Either these pilots are deliberately chosen rookies. This means that the entire thing was staged.
• Or these were the best pilots PLAAF had to offer. This means that the exercise was genuine, and that pilot training in PLAAF needs some serious revamp. I mean if these were PLAAF aces getting shot out like flies just because they could not see the enemy close-in, they are not going to last out long in front of a standard air force pilot from the IAF or USAF (let alone the ace pilots from these air forces).

For some reason I believe it was the first case: that the entire thing was staged.

 

[Haldiram]

It's interesting how the Chinese are lurking around in the forum and jump in whenever anyone even mentions China remotely. 50 cent party? give them a raise for doing their jobs and call them 60 cent party or something.

 

[Aghore_King]

Well chinese can churn out the planes in numbers quickly, but can they train their pilots that quickly?? Shortage of skilled pilots is a real nuisance for every air force in the world...

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Mention China remotely? This whole section is the China section. If you get rid of this section, we will not come. It is that simple.

 

[nimo_cn]

It's interesting how the Chinese are lurking around in the forum and jump in whenever anyone even mentions China remotely. 50 cent party? give them a raise for doing their jobs and call them 60 cent party or something.

maybe you should not mention china remotely, or simply get rid of the China subforum.

 

[J20!]

While it's true that it takes a lot of work to make small changes to an aircraft's design still China would not have achieved the development pace it did with the J-20 had it not bought the design of the Mig 1.44. Tweaking designs is still much easier than starting from scratch.

The most glaring problem with your argument is that the Mikoyan Aircraft Corporation expressly deny ever having sold either the prototype or design documents of the Mig 1.44 to any Chinese entities.

https://www.rbth.com/articles/2011/...logy_transfer_to_china_for_j-20_fighter_12923
Russia has never transferred any stealth technology to China to assist it with its J-20 Black Eagle fifth-generation stealth fighter prototype, Russian plane maker MiG said.

"We are not delivering any equipment to China, and never have," MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova said.

If CAC had "bought the design" then surely they would have got the prototype as well as SAC did when it bought the Su33 prototypes and design documents from Ukraine. The other major issue with your unsupported theory is that as at 2014, the Mig 1.44 prototype was STILL IN RUSSIA. It was never transferred to China:

http://survincity.com/2014/12/mig-1-44-continues-to-be-on-top-secret-military_2/

Even their wings are not the same size or positioned the same. The other doesn't have LERX's. Let alone the intake design. Could anyone in their right minds call the Mig 1.44 stealthy? These aircraft are so aerodynamically dissimilar its a wonder that you aren't also claiming that the Mig 27 is a copy of the F18 somehow.

People who cant reconcile with the idea of a Chinese origin aircraft come up with the weirdest excuses.

 

[J20!]

Trolling aside.....

I think there are few chinks in the armor. Let me point out them and maybe someone would help me analyse them even more.......

Scenario 1

A low flying fighter missile launches will have very low ranges. Not only that whenever a fighter is targeted, it's RWR goes full alert and gives all kinds of warning signals. Does this mean that J-10b & J-10cs neither has RWR(a very basic equipment from 3rd gen fighters like F-4 had over 50yrs ago!!??) or Jamming systems which is kind of must in 21 century fighter or pilot skills to evade incoming missiles.

What is lacking....

Evade incoming missiles? I suspect that you're being deliberately naive here. An air-to-air missile is infinitely more aerodynamically capable than any fighter aircraft. i wonder why F15's, F16's, Rafales and Eurofighter pilots lack the skill to just "evade incoming missiles" when F22's and F35's shoot them down at ratio's of 10+ to 1. Maybe their RWR don't work either?

And I seem to remeber several Idian posters here celebrating an account of IAF SU30MKI's ambushing USAF F15's in an air-to-air combat exercise by flying at low altitude. What's good for the goose is good for the gander mate. Low altitude approaches are well established combat maneuvers. With their advantages and disadvantages.

Weak argument mate.

According to @J20! The downed J20 was hit by J-10C from 18km. J-10B didn't even notice the stealthy J-20.....

The only difference(in terms of avionics) between J-10B and J-10C is the air cooled AESA radar KLJ-7A and the only AESA radar on the Chinese operational aircraft.

If an air cooled AESA in a look down-shoot down mode(I have a theory to believe that it was a look down-shoot down mode and I could be wrong too)can down(from 18km) a J-20, then what would liquid cooled GaN based radar, would do to J-20....give it a thought....

Survival of 4.5 or 5 gen fighters depend on their EW abilities. If J-20 couldn't jam air cooled AESA radar, then there is no escape from GaN radars...

And another thing, who said 1. The KLJ 7A is "the only AESA radar on the Chinese operational aircraft." 2. That the KLJ 7A is even operational at all?

Wrong on both counts. The Air-cooled KLJ-7A is an exportable AESA developed from the KLJ-7 Pulse Doppler on the JF17. It's been marketed at Zhuhai last year and hasn't even completed testing...

These two are not the same AESA. They aren't even the same shape.

The J10C's AESA is larger and not even the same shape as the KLJ 7A, an export radar designed as aircooled to lower its weight enough to fit light weight fighters like the JF17.

+ I assume the J20, and J16 would beg to differ with your claim that the KLJ 7A is "the only AESA radar on the Chinese operational aircraft".

Final point. If an "AESA" cannot detect a stealth aircraft at WVR's like 18km, then it isn't a very good radar to begin with.

Coming to my theory.....

J-10B and J-10C both have same IRST (If I am wrong, then please provide an official source that J-10C uses different IRST). We all know that J-20 uses(as of now) AL-31 engine derivative, which produces lots of heat. Why didn't IRST detect J-20, the only reason I could come up is J-20's flying very low and very close to J-10s (J-20s sneaked that close without being detected even in the presence of AWACS, I still am unable to come to terms on how it happened, but nevertheless it happened as per the scenario........) If only J-10C had noticed and shot down the J-20 using AESA, then I see no other way than in look down-shoot down mode. If This is possible in any other way, then please explain it.

This is very poor simulation even to assume that it had been run. Many variables had been omitted like RWR, Jamming, IRST, pilot skills to evade incoming missiles, consequence of low altitude missiles launch, IR guided missiles and he'll lot of other things....

This scenario had been written for consumption of 2-cents, it's wasn't even written by a military person (based on the missing pieces).

Now, I don't mean that J-20 or any of Chinese equipment is this bad, but we(civilians) just don't know their capabilities yet.

What's sad is, an Indian fanboy started this thread thinking to troll the J20 with negative info. When it becomes obvious that the two scenarios actually place the aircraft in a good light, other Indian posters call the account "staged" or deny its validity.

The authenticity standard for positive news about Chinese tech is always very high for Indian members, whilst the opposite is true for negative content. If a story alleges poor performance by Chinese tech, Indians lap it up without even verifying its authenticity.

At the end of the day, like Henri K pointed out in his article. Both the scenarios outlined above ARE RUMORS. Even if they happened to be true, you really cant summarize the entirety of an air-combat encounter in a paragraph without leaving important specifics out.

Either way, errors aside, good attempt at an analysis.

 

[Haldiram]

maybe you should not mention china remotely, or simply get rid of the China subforum.

Ya Allah! what impressive dedication! 10 cents extra for you.

 

[nimo_cn]

Ya Allah! what impressive dedication! 10 cents extra for you.

I don't you have the money to pay me, I make more money than you do.

 

[badguy2000]

I don't you have the money to pay me, I make more money than you do.

haha.economic superioty usually brings more self~confidence.

 

[Haldiram]

I don't you have the money to pay me, I make more money than you do.

In all likelihood, you probably do. I is a poe boi.

The 10 cents were to come from Xi Jinping's pockets not mine anyway. I was only trying to put in a good word for your services rendered towards your supreme leader.

People in your part of the world don't like compliments?

 

[asianobserve]

It's clear that Mig 1.44 was the starting design of J-20. The Chinese simply incorporated stealth designed features and other improvements.