Israel-Palestine Conflict

[Nonynon]

If land for peace works, it'll be a big reversal of trend. The usual historic trend has been - get some land, use it as staging area for attacks - get more land - ad infinitum.

I still feel Israel's demand of only "peace" as too less. "Peace" isn't something that'll benefit Israel alone but those Palestinians too. So why do Israelis think "peace" is something that Palestinians are giving to them. "Peace" is a natural outcome, not a reward for "land".

In return for "land" and evacuation of kibbutzim in westbank/gaza, these are the minimum natural rewards Israel deserves ...
- Jerusalem remains Israeli. Palestinians can pray there but never occupy it.
- West bank is delinked from Gaza - Gaza should be given to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan. No overland routes between Gaza and West Bank.

Palestinian exclusivity claim to Jerusalem is as ridiculous as Israel partially claiming Mecca because Jews used to live there.

But I guess if Israel is ready to give up Gaza strip, it also indicates a great confidence of IDF as being able to protect Israel against using that land for staging attacks.

That's all very true, in a reasonable place both sides would benefit from peace and ground would never be just given away for nothing but the fact Israel was at war sense its first day and even before that makes people here dream of peace and the fact almost everyone here served in the army makes everyone know what war really means. On the Arab side the anti Israeli propaganda is too strong to make them want peace on their own. The fact Israel doesn't normally bombard arabs for the fun or send suicide bombers makes them not much need Israel's peace.
The thing is the Arab side gains a lot from being in a position of seize fire with Israel instead of peace with Israel because he uses all the Anti Israel thing as a mean to unify the people and help oppress them by pointing their angers at someone else. For example, almost right after Egypt signed peace with Israel, the Egyptian president (dictator) was assassinated.
In the Past (after the six day war - 1967) Israel also occupied all the Sini peninsula, taking all its oil as well as guard Eilat from naval blockades, be in control of the Suetz Cannal and use Suetz as a good defendable boarder against Egypt. After a few years all Sini was given back to Egypt in return for Peace with Egypt. Was it worth it? It probably spared us another war but on the other hand there's a good chance now after the Egypt revolts that Egypt will just stop the peace (Gaza was also offered to be given along with Sini but Egypt insisted they don't want it).
In my opinion it was a good move in general but we shouldn't have given them all Sini, only part of it back so they will know that if they make another war on us then we will take a little more, and that they do have something to lose by making war (they don't really consider the other things they lose... In fact the more Israel kills right now the better they look on Western Media).

Continued occupation of the Palestinians isn't off the table in Israeli politics but the thing is most Israelis want peace more then holding more ground and many (if not most) also feel guilty about occupying people for too long. I think if the UN would not have such an obsession with Israel and neither would foreign medias then Israel might have been more able to continue the occupation or just annex larger parts.

As for the too points you mentioned, Jerusalem had been annexed into Israel but the Palestinians keep demanding East Jerusalem (although wikileaks revealed some Palestinians leaders are starting to think about giving it up).
Land connections between Gaza and the West bank isn't seen as something the Palestinians 'deserve' its just something that can be brought up as a way to bargain.
Its all about the bargaining right now, the main cards the Palestinians are playing are:
1. Until we get peace we will continue to do terror attacks
2. Until we get peace we will get world general opinion against you
3. Until we get peace we will use international pressure and deligitimation against you.
So after using those stuff they hope that Israel would except peace deals more into their favor.

 

[kch]

Your 1.-3. are much the same tactics being used by separatists in Kashmir.

The important thing to realize is that "land" isn't just a material entity. A nation needs "land" for survival. As you say, it's not for some fun that Israel has occupied the land. If there's no buffer, you are strategically exposed to even greater encroachment.

After 50-60 years, the generations grow weary of violence and people are ready to give up "land". What they don't realize is that the "peace" they'll buy is only temporary. A permanent "peace" is only between two sane neighbours. If one neighbour (arabs) are insane, you won't have "peace", but least you can do is ensure your "survival" by holding on the the "land".

PS: I suggest using the word "reclaim" instead of "annex" for land. The former means taking what belongs to you. The latter implies grabbing what is someone else's.

 

[Nonynon]

Your 1.-3. are much the same tactics being used by separatists in Kashmir.

The important thing to realize is that "land" isn't just a material entity. A nation needs "land" for survival. As you say, it's not for some fun that Israel has occupied the land. If there's no buffer, you are strategically exposed to even greater encroachment.

After 50-60 years, the generations grow weary of violence and people are ready to give up "land". What they don't realize is that the "peace" they'll buy is only temporary. A permanent "peace" is only between two sane neighbours. If one neighbour (arabs) are insane, you won't have "peace", but least you can do is ensure your "survival" by holding on the the "land".

PS: I suggest using the word "reclaim" instead of "annex" for land. The former means taking what belongs to you. The latter implies grabbing what is someone else's.

I don't know exactly how strong you're terrorists are but the thing is the Arabs did so well in demonizing Israel that I can't go in any Western country and feel safe saying were I'm from. Even when you check internet chats you can see the average Western guy will atleast dislike you if you say you're Israeli, some others might start cursing you and call Nazi slugans. I've got friends living in Europe, every single one of them had already had been ganged and bitten up at least once for being Jewish. Makes me wonder were I'd be if I wouldn't have Israel...

Back to the point, their international pressure is very effective and that gets the international community to demand irrational stuff from Israel. For example to give up the blockade on Gaza and to allow Hamas to arm itself at will, or to retreat to the full 1967 borders in return for peace. Some even see Zionism as the main problem and refuse to believe Israel has a right to exist (like the UN ruled Zionism is racism= Israel is racist and should not exist). Most of Latin America as well as some others like Russia have already recognized a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders, now the EU is starting to hint of them doing the same (mainly France).

And you're right about the 'demand more' point you pointed out. Most people here don't believe the Palestinians will take the land and really keep the peace going. But we trust there's a way to get peace and it would involve giving land as part of the process. Not all the 1967 land ofc, Israeli presence in the high grounds and strategic points is a must and if Israel keeps those then Israel would surround the new Palestine except for maybe a small pass into Egypt and the sea in Gaza, but the West bank might be completely surrounded.
The Palestinians and the West would probably hate it but like you said, its not an option to think otherwise.

Wikileaks revealed a deal the PA offered in the peace talks and it sounded like a deal that might be worked on a bit then possibly work but Israel and USA refused it, saying the land deals aren't the only thing that can make the process work bu merely the final part of it. Abbas (PA leader- leader of the Palestinians in the West bank) got really angry but this shows you're point. The secrete ties being built between Israel and the PA sound like a good development and if the PA would finally stop the Anti-Israel, Anti-Jewish propaganda that helps them control their people then we might get another step towards peace.

 

[AOE]

One thing I will add to the discussion here is that jews are statistically maltreated far more in the west than muslims are, especially in Europe. A lot of this is thanks to the demonization of Israelis and jews in general by muslims as Nonyon has already mentioned.

Much of this nonsense can be traced back to conspiracy theories in literature form, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Texts like these were popular amongst 20th century fascists, and are now in the best seller lists in many Arab countries today. This is a sobering fact, and makes one realize how history is repeating itself.

 

[The Messiah]

One thing I will add to the discussion here is that jews are statistically maltreated far more in the west than muslims are, especially in Europe. A lot of this is thanks to the demonization of Israelis and jews in general by muslims as Nonyon has already mentioned.

Much of this nonsense can be traced back to conspiracy theories in literature form, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Texts like these were popular amongst 20th century fascists, and are now in the best seller lists in many Arab countries today. This is a sobering fact, and makes one realize how history is repeating itself.

What rubbish! Jews have been persecuted in europe for centuries.

 

[AOE]

If you read the rest of the quote, you will note I included the Tsarist secret police and the National Socialist movement. Most of their works today are best* sellers in the Arab world, not in Europe.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Newt's unpopular truth: Palestine wasn't even a country 100 years ago | Columnists | Opinion | Edmonton Sun

 

[ejazr]

Newt's unpopular truth: Palestine wasn't even a country 100 years ago | Columnists | Opinion | Edmonton Sun

Maybe NEwt doesn't know that even Israel wasn't a country 100 years ago, and I think even Israelis (the average sane ones atleat) agree on existence of Palestinian people. Who else are they fighting against in West Bank and Gaza for the past 60+ years then?

Besides, there is almost unanimous world opinion that recognises Palestinains right to self-determination.


Right of the Palestinian people to self-determination - GA vote (Plenary) - Press release (Excerpts) (19 December 2011)

The draft resolution on the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination (document A/66/461) was adopted by a recorded vote of 182 in favour to 7 against, with 3 abstentions, as follows:
In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People's Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United Republic of Tanzania, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Against: Canada, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.

Abstain: Cameroon, South Sudan, Tonga.

Absent: Kiribati

 

[Tomcat]

This is the same argument a few macluites would use for India if the palsatines were a nation before the show us the Proof of that then talk this is a chalange to all pro palistine fellows

 

[Son of Govinda]

US voices concern at Israel outpost authorisation

BBC News - US voices concern at Israel outpost authorisation

The US has said it is concerned about reports that the Israeli government has decided to make legal under Israeli law three West Bank settlement outposts.

A state department spokeswoman said diplomats were "seeking clarification", but stressed they did "not think this is helpful" to the peace process.

The US does not accept the legitimacy of continued settlement activity.

The Palestinians also condemned the decision to "formalise the status" of Bruchin, Rechelim and Sansana.

About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

The settler outposts are also illegal under Israeli law and the government agreed to remove them under the 2003 Road Map peace plan.

'No changes on the ground'
On Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu formed a new committee, made up of four ministers, to look into outposts at Bruchin and Rechelim, in the north, and Sansana, near Hebron in the south.

The prime minister's office announced two days later that the committee had decided to "formalise the status" of the outposts, which have a total of about 830 residents.


The Israeli Prime Minister set up a ministerial committee to look at the outposts issue
A statement said the "three communities... were established in the 1990s following the decisions of past governments".

"The decision does not make any changes on the ground. It does not mean any expansion of existing settlements or establishment of new ones," an Israeli official told the BBC.

But US state department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland voiced concern.

"We have raised this with the Israeli government and we are seeking clarification," she told reporters in Washington.

"You know where we are on settlements, we don't think this is helpful to the process and we don't accept the legitimacy of continued settlement activity," she added.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague strongly condemned the decision on Wednesday, saying it set a "dangerous precedent".

"By seeking to entrench illegal settlements in the West Bank, as this decision does, the Israeli government risks sending the message that it is not serious about its stated commitment to the goal of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," he said in a statement.

A spokesman for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Mr Netanyahu had "pushed things to a dead end yet again".


"We're ready to return to peace talks immediately if Netanyahu commits to stopping settlement construction and recognises the 1967 borders," Nabil Abu Rudeina told the Reuters news agency.

US-brokered negotiations on a two-state solution stalled in late 2010 following a dispute over settlement construction.

Israel's announcement came a week after President Abbas sent a letter to Mr Netanyahu asking that Israel freeze all settlement construction and accept the borders which were in place before the 1967 Middle East war as the basis for those of a future Palestine, with mutually agreed modifications.

Mr Netanyahu's office said last Tuesday that both sides were "committed to reach peace" and a reply to the letter would be sent within two weeks.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

A state department spokeswoman said diplomats were "seeking clarification", but stressed they did "not think this is helpful" to the peace process.

Voicing concern is what diplomats do best. The only thing which would be "helpful to the peace process" is for every Israeli man, woman, and child to walk into the Mediterranean Sea until the water closed over their heads.

 

[pack leader]

bla bla bla bla ...........
no one cares what "concerns" America
it all diplomatic bullisht to make Arab morons happy

 

[W.G.Ewald]

bla bla bla bla ...........
no one cares what "concerns" America
it all diplomatic bullisht to make Arab morons happy

Muslim Brotherhood has been received at the White House. And they didn't have to leave by the back door as the Dalai Lama did.

 

[asianobserve]

If you ask me its land grab in broad daylight... illegally seized lands for Lieberman's bast*rds...

 

[pack leader]

If you ask me its land grab in broad daylight... illegally seized lands for Lieberman's bast*rds...

get over your bias its disputed land !!!
there is no international border between the west bank and Israel
they should have accepted partition in 1948 or any off the peace deals now its too late we don't give a ---- anymore
with Arab immigration out and Jewish birth rate and immigration in we will have a Jewish majority in the west bank by 2030
and then we will officially annex it

the Arabs and the UN can have Gaza and do whatever they like with it its worthless

 

[asianobserve]

Israel: Another Former Top Security Aide Criticizes Netanyahu
By KARL VICK | April 29, 2012
Time

The former head of Shin Bet minced no words. "I have no faith in the current leadership of the State of Israel, which is supposed to lead us in the event of a major event, such as a war with Iran or a regional war," Yuval Diskin told a group of retired security officials on Friday, in a restaurant north of Tel Aviv. Diskin, who stepped down a year ago as head of Israel's internal security apparatus, was apparently videotaped by at least one of the attendees and excerpts appeared in Israeli media over the weekend. "I have no faith in either the prime minister or the defense minister," he added, referring to Benjamin Netanyahu and Ehud Barak, respectively. "I am very mistrustful of a leadership that makes decisions based on messianic senses"¦. I've seen them from up close. They're not messiahs, either of them, and they are not people whom I, on a personal level at least, trust to lead the State of Israel into an event of that scale and also to extricate Israel from it. I am very worried that they are not the people whom I truly would want to be at the helm when we set out on an endeavor of that sort."

Diskin's pronouncements were a bombshell in the Israeli media, coming after a string of similar public pronouncements from the previous chief of Mossad Meir Dagan, whose former agency is charged with doing overseas what Diskin's does at home. Dagan, who left office last year, stopped short of Diskin's indictments of the judgment of Netanyahu and Barak. But he has repeatedly called the duo's threats to bomb Iran "the dumbest idea I've ever heard." The former spymaster, under whom Mossad carried out an ambitious espionage campaign against Tehran's nuclear program, warned that a military strike would ignite a regional war that could go on for years.

Like Dagan, Diskin said that a military strike likely wouldn't stop Iran from getting The Bomb. "I object to the operational discussions that are held here as to how to attack, whether to attack, why to attack and how much to attack," he told the retirees. " A barking dog doesn't bite, and I regret to say that I've been hearing too much barking in the State of Israel in that context. They're creating a misrepresentation for the public here on the Iranian issue. They're creating the sense that if the state of Israel doesn't act then Iran will have a nuclear bomb—and this part of the sentence apparently contains a kernel of well-founded truth. But, the second part of the sentence, in which they appeal to, pardon the phrase, the 'dumb public'—or the lay public would be more correct—and they say to it that if the State of Israel does act, there won't be [an Iranian] nuclear bomb. And that is precisely the incorrect part of the sentence, or the misrepresentation in the sentence. A very large number of experts have been saying for a great many years that one of the results of an Israeli attack in Iran could be a dramatic acceleration of the Iranian nuclear program. In other words, that which the Iranians currently prefer to pursue slowly and quietly these days, they'll have legitimacy to pursue quickly and within a far shorter period of time."

Also in the background of Diskin's broadside was last week's interview by Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, the Israeli military chief of staff who assessed the Iranian threat in terms pointedly calmer and more nuanced than his bosses. Gantz contradicted Netanyahu by calling the Iranian leadership "rational" and unlikely to try for a nuclear weapon. Calling for calm, he offered assurances that Israel is "a temperate state" that will make decisions "without hysteria."

Diskin did not limit his criticism of Netanyahu to the Prime Minister's Iran policy and, indeed, to a world that historically sees Israel through the prism of its conflict with the Palestinians, more damage may have been done by the ex-Shin Bet chief's assessment of the peace process. Diskin, whose portfolio included keeping Israelis safe from terror, blamed Netanyahu for the lack of progress toward a peace deal, saying the Prime Minister's right-wing coalition prevents anything more than rhetorical support for negotiating a two-state solution with Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen.

"The state of Israel needs to aspire to a long-term arrangement on the basis of a two-state solution, with maximum security for the state of Israel in the long-term, but without any illusions about the finality of the conflict," he said. "That is why I think that despite the fact that it is super complicated, every passing day makes the problem harder to solve. The fact that we're not talking with the Palestinians—and guys, forget about all the stories they're selling you in the media about how we want to talk but Abu Mazen doesn't and so forth. I'm telling you, we're not talking with the Palestinians because this government has no interest in talking with the Palestinians. I was there up until a year ago. I know from up close what is going on in that area. This government has no interest in talking with the Palestinians. It most certainly has no interest in resolving anything with the Palestinians. The prime minister knows that if he takes even the smallest step forward on this issue then the well-established rule of the prime minister in the State of Israel and his strong coalition will fall apart. It's that simple. That is why no one here has any interest in resolving anything with the Palestinians, and that is the source of the Palestinians' frustration—and incidentally, I'm not defending the Palestinians in the least. They have made their mistakes."

The Sunday papers all led with either Diskin's remarks, or the return fire from supporters of Netanyahu and Barak, calling Diskin several variations on a disgruntled former employee. But both Diskin and Dagan left their government positions with high praise from all quarters, including from Netanyahu, with whom they met routinely. Along with the army, Shin Bet and Mossad are the agencies Israelis depend on to prevent crisis and preserve security, dealing efficiently with the kind of sensitive issues that cannot brook mismanagement. As analysts loyal to the prime minister scrambled to discredit another critic once praised as a consummate professional, Israel's most prominent columnist, Nahum Barnea of Yedioth Ahronot, insisted the question of character is better directed at the prime minister himself. "The question"¦ is not why Diskin but, rather, why Netanyahu? How has it happened that this man, who is currently at peak popularity, peak public respect, fails to earn even a smidgen of respect from the people who knew him best of all?"

Diskin's remarks on peace talks, incidentally, echoed the view he offered a conference room of foreign reporters in late 2010, when he was still in charge of Shin Bet, known in English as General Security Service. "In order to keep the legitimacy of the Palestinian security forces we need real progress in the peace process," Diskin said then. "Everything is connected to the progress we will have or we will not have in the peace process." Ben-Dror Yemini, a conservative columnist for the daily Ma'ariv, called Diskin's remarks a windfall for Abbas, especially on the heels of a statement one day earlier by Israeli president Shimon Peres that "Abu Mazen really wants peace with Israel."


Read more: Israel: Another Former Top Security Aide Criticizes Netanyahu | Global Spin | TIME.com

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Yuval Diskin told a group of retired security officials on Friday, in a restaurant north of Tel Aviv.

That's funny. A long article about how important is what this guy thinks and he's speaking in a restaurant. Couldn't he even rent a hall? Israeli leftists are as treasonous as they are in any country.

And believe it, TIME is a major part of the anti-Jewish faction in the US, trotting along behind the post-American president.

 

[StarShip Enterprise]

BBC News - US voices concern at Israel outpost authorisation

"You know where we are on settlements, we don't think this is helpful to the process and we don't accept the legitimacy of continued settlement activity," she added.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague strongly condemned the decision on Wednesday, saying it set a "dangerous precedent".

"By seeking to entrench illegal settlements in the West Bank, as this decision does, the Israeli government risks sending the message that it is not serious about its stated commitment to the goal of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," he said in a statement.

A spokesman for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Mr Netanyahu had "pushed things to a dead end yet again".

it is the rockets from gaza that is very dangerous.
the palestinians donot seem be care about it. they wont ceasefire !!!
it is all these that dont help dialogue or peace process because they have no genuine intension for it.

the anti Semitic media does not focus on these matters and they are the ones who need to be condemed.

 

[asianobserve]

xxx TIME is a major part of the anti-Jewish faction in the US,xxx.

Is Time's Managing Editor Mr. Richard Stengel not Jewish? His last name sounds Jewish to me...

 

[ejazr]

it is the rockets from gaza that is very dangerous.
the palestinians donot seem be care about it. they wont ceasefire !!!
it is all these that dont help dialogue or peace process because they have no genuine intension for it.

the anti Semitic media does not focus on these matters and they are the ones who need to be condemed.

The settlements are illegal as per international law. Even Israeli courts have declared them as illegal. There is nothing anti-semitic about this. The settlements are being created in Arab majority regions. And as per the two state solution agreed upon by past Israeli PMs as well, the West Bank and Gaza would be the future of the new Palestinian state.

So you have a case of Israel eating the bread(land) while Palestinians are negotiating on how to divide it at the same time reducing the final size available for negotiation.

Think of it as Pakistan occupying Eastern Punjab which is non-Muslim majorty and creating settlement blocks were Pakistanis would be living.

It is in the best interests of Israel to implement the two state solution which has now full support of the Arab League and the OIC governments who have signed up for not only recognition by full diplomatic and economic relations with Israel when this is implemented.

And this is something people as pro-Israel as David Ben Gurion proposed so supporting the two state solution is in no way anti-semitic or even anti-Israeli
Peres: Ben-Gurion was first to support two-stat... JPost - Israel


This is affirmed by the former Shin Bet chief - a person who I would assume is more pro-Israeli and loyal to his country than you and who knows more about dangers facing Israel than either me or you. Having the two state solution would improve Israeli-Arab relations and also with other Muslim countries with the exception of perhaps Iran. But in this way, the security environment will be drastically altered in Israel's favour.