Is the tank becoming obsolete?

p2prada

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Would you mind posting a source or proof of those statements.
10 Most Epic Tank Battles in Military History
2. Battle of Chawinda, 17 – 22 September 1965

The battle of Chawinda, which was part of the Indo-Pakistani war of 1965, has been called one of the largest tank battles since World War Two's Battle of Kursk. The forces were fairly evenly matched, with the Indian Army commanding 225 tanks and the Pakistani Army controlling 282 tanks (including reinforcements). The Indian aim of the attack was to seize control of the Sialkot-Pasrur railway, thereby cutting off Pakistan's route to important supplies. Things did not, however, go the Indians' way, with the Pakistanis receiving reinforcements from Kashmir that vastly improved their situation. At the UN-enforced end of hostilities, India held around 200 square miles of Pakistani territory.
Then there was the battle of Asal Uttar. You just need to see the number of tanks in each of these battles to know the scale.

But nevertheless, second biggest after Arab Israeli wars.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Tanks can come in handy if you have air superiority, if you dont do you really want to be in a tank.

CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon (SFW) Live Fire Test - YouTube

US Air Force dropping Cluster Bombs... - YouTube

In real life A10s alone destroyed over 800 tanks in the Iraq war have you ever looked at one of those tanks,,,they look like swiss cheese that had a bomb explode. Theres never been a tank made that can stand up to a laser guided bomb or DU shells. Webshots Rides offers thousands of the best car wallpapers.

Remember this was 2003
Your comment is like:

Aircrafts are obsolete and cant stand a chance against SAM such as SA-6 / S-300/400 and Patriots..

Tanks are obsolete coz they can be killed by AT means..

Soldiers are obsolete coz they can be killed by bullets and other means

Ships are obsolete coz they can be sink via Anti-ship means..


Remember this was from birth of human beings..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Regarding Stryker..


Note from 2.46 about commander of 1st Armoured had to say..
 
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Damian

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Yeah, I really want to be in a tank.

The very popular myth is that air forces are effective against land forces... in fact air forces allways ---- up everything and land forces needs to clean up the mess that fly boys do.

If Air Forces would be so incredibly effective, then in 1991 there would not be any large tank battle like 73 eastings or battle for norfolk or battle for medina ridge.

In fact 80-90% of Iraq ground forces, this means also tanks, were destroyed by cialition land forces, mostly coalition tanks and IFV's, not by these silly fly boys that were wasting ammunition on wrecks.

There are several good books written in USA, how USAF was effectiveness was just a huge lie, and how they took all the "glory" while the dirty work was done in reality by armor and mechanized forces.

In Balkan wars, NATO air forces were capable to destroy only 14 tanks, from 200-300 used in the region... incredible "effectiveness" I must say. ;)

In 2003 air forces as allways, were talking much, but in reality, the ground forces, and especially tanks done dirty work and great effort o push forward, despite the popular myths, there were serious tank battles there.

I recommend for example book Heavy Metal - A Tank Company's Battle To Baghdad written by capt. Jason Conroy and Ron Martz. Interesting lecture that shows how usefull were tanks in different situations, and how useless were air forces.

Not to mention that mistakes of fly boys costs lifes of many civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, tank crews were never making such mistakes because of their greater situational awareness and knowledge what actually happens on the ground.

So yeah if someone would give me an option what support I want to have for infantry, for example in city battle, air forces or tanks... I take tanks any time.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

But nevertheless, second biggest after Arab Israeli wars.
Its first after WW2, Coz this was about so many tanks concentrated in small space.. ..
 

average american

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Bows and arrows are obsolete, calvary is obsolete, dog fighting is obsolete battleships are obsolete, tanks are obsolete air craft carriers are obsolete, 4th generation planes are obsolete. It dont mean they are not dangerous and that you cant use them. If you are planning on winning a war today or in the future you cant depend on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZf5ILZ8fI8&feature=related Russian tanks are obsolete
 
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Damian

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Bows and arrows are obsolete, calvary is obsolete, battleships are obsolete, tanks are obsolete air craft carriers are obsolete, 4th generation planes are obsolete. It dont mean they are not dangerous and that you cant use them. If you are planning on winning a war today or in the future you cant depend on them.
Thanks god that US Armed Forces, and armed forces of all countries do not agree with armchair generals like You, or we would be ----ed up nicely.

What next, human beings are also obsolete? By You logic everything is obsolete. :D

Can I expect any proffesional and reliable source, not idiotic slide show from YouTube?

Sorry mate, but I was teached on university that only good source is a good book, or document, everything else is not worth and effort to even read it.

Second thing is that in the other topic I asked You, what do You really know about Russian tanks, do You know their history? Do You can even comprehend the fact that Iraqis were using obsolete, downgraded export variants?

I wonder why people just don't read the damn books... oh wait I get it, books are also obsolete? :facepalm:

And the other questions is... how old are goddamnit?! Because I start to think I'am talking with a 10 years old kid, uncapable to comprehend reality.

I hate when people start to generlize, simplify reality, when they bash with mud technology of country x not because of it's technical characteristics but because of their politicial belives.
 
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average american

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By one estimate published in 1993 [The Gulf War Foreign Policy No. 90], the Allied air campaign destroyed about than 1,600 Iraqi tanks, 900 armored personnel carriers, and 1,400 artillery pieces. According to this estimate, another 2,162 Iraqi tanks were destroyed in the ground war. Air power now is ten times as effective as it was twenty years ago if not more.
 
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Damian

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By one estimate published in 1993 [The Gulf War Foreign Policy No. 90], the Allied air campaign destroyed about than 1,600 Iraqi tanks, 900 armored personnel carriers, and 1,400 artillery pieces. According to this estimate, another 2,162 Iraqi tanks were destroyed in the ground war.
A fairy tale, air forces destroyed minority of armored vehicles on ground, simply because fly boys allways do the same mistake, they destroy a wreck several times, and each pilot reports that he destroyed a tank, it is easy to make mistakes flying high above the ground.

There are more recent research work, that is far more accurate showing how "effective" in reality air forces are. Militarysta have these titles, I will ask him.

Not to mention that even numbers of T-72 tanks in Iraq inventory were overestimated.
 

pankaj nema

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In today's battlefield The TANK needs more help than ever before

Tank has not become obsolete but ANTI tank platforms such as Combat helicopters and
infantry weapons like ATGMs and RPGs have become very powerful

SO it has become very important for countries like India which use MASSED Armour
in offensive formations and for offensive thrusts into enemy territory like Pakistan
to be better prepared with well armed infantry and
MASSIVE artilerry barrages to destroy enemy MINEFIELDS and dug in infantry positions

And obviously IAF will have to knock out the PAF planes and helicopters for Indian armour
to move in
 

militarysta

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By one estimate published in 1993 [The Gulf War Foreign Policy No. 90], the Allied air campaign destroyed about than 1,600 Iraqi tanks, 900 armored personnel carriers, and 1,400 artillery pieces. According to this estimate, another 2,162 Iraqi tanks were destroyed in the ground war. Air power now is ten times as effective as it was twenty years ago if not more.
BUAHAHAHAHAHAH In Air Force wet dream maybe. The truth was far worse for flying cowboys -few examples about this:

1. In April/May 1991 one US Study Group about the effectiveness of air strikes became and study 163 "destroyed" Iraq tanks from division:
-Tawalkana
- 12 Tk.Div
- 3 Tk Div.
78 tanks haven't any marks after hit and where abandoned; 28 tanks where destroyed by air munition, rest: 62 tanks where destroyed by Army weapons. This 163 tanks where 6% of whole tanks destroyed in ODS and this is authoritative in scientific studies attempt.

2. After study ~1400 destroy targets on hightway from Kuwait to Basra (famous "deth road") only 14 destroyed tanks was founded and 14 other armoured vechicles.

3. Initially, data from USCENTCOM gives those figure: "5000 shoot Hellfire missaile, destroyed up to 600 Iraq tanks." After few monts USCENTCOM "‹"‹decreased tese values to "550-600 vechicles and 10-20% armoured". So in fact for Hellfire missaile where lost only 55-120 SPGs, MBTs and IFV and other artilery system. So only small parts of those nubers (55-120) will be tanks.

4. The T-72 thema. It's most funny ad give the most pathetic picture about what guys form Air Forcec icludes in to their raports.
Before ODS war Iraq have 786 T-72 in army and 176 in guards units. After ODS air forces claim that they destroyed more then 600 T-72 tanks. And of course more then 400 kills count for themselfs A-10 warthog pilots.
The shock was after 2003 Iraq Freedom when Iraqi Army internal reports have been captured, and it turned out that Iaq had 700-800 T-72! So they just can't loose those 600 tanks for all ~950 have before ODS. And had began counting scored ex- Irq Army reports. And what? of course... Iraq in ODS lost only 50-100 T-72 tanks but for Land Forces and Air Forces activity. And most of them for Land Faorces fire...

Sources:
Gulf War Air Power Survay vol II "Effect and Effectivenness"
Gulf War Air Power Survay vol II Part II "Operations and Effect and Effectivenness"
Gulf war Air power Survey - summary report Thomas A. Keaney, Eliot A. Cohen, Washington 1993, s.163
Case Study: The FSCL in Deser Storm, John R.M.McDanel, s.13

ps. sorry for typos :)

did I mentioned that MEAT dates after Kosovo war? Yes, for beween 200-300 Serbian tanks only 14 where destroyed for air strikes, and only about 68-80 armoured vechicles (tanks, APC, IFV, SPH, etc) where destroyed for air strikes.
In more then 5000 strikes.
 
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pankaj nema

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I think 10 ATGMs fired simultaneously will kill Any tank including M1 A 2 Abrams

And how much will 10 ATGMs cost Maximum ONE million dollars

This incudes the cost of Jeep like vehicle carriers for the ATGM crew
 

Damian

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B-2 Bomber

Massed tanks are going to very tempting targets. 80 500lb smarft bombs per plane.
It is typical fanboy based waste of ammunition and valuable resource like B-2 bomber. Why waste such expensive munitions, fuel, time and a bomber, that can be used to attack and destroy infrastructure, factories, powerplants, HQ posts and such targets?

There is a well known truth in all armies, the best anti tank weapon, is a tank, period.

In today's battlefield The TANK needs more help than ever before

Tank has not become obsolete but ANTI tank platforms such as Combat helicopters and
infantry weapons like ATGMs and RPGs have become very powerful

SO it has become very important for countries like India which use MASSED Armour
in offensive formations and for offensive thrusts into enemy territory like Pakistan
to be better prepared with well armed infantry and
MASSIVE artilerry barrages to destroy enemy MINEFIELDS and dug in infantry positions

And obviously IAF will have to knock out the PAF planes and helicopters for Indian armour
to move in
1) Why attack helicopters are considered as main threat to a tank? In Iraq in 2003 attack helicopters failed to efficently attack Iraqi armored vehicles, in fact AH-64's were stopped by a well placed ambush made from RPG-7's, 12,7mm and 14,5mm machine guns and light anti aircraft cannons (ZU-23-2 probably). There are very well known facts, that the most work was done by American armored vehicles, and especially tanks, to push forward in to Baghdad, and to decrease casualties in infantry.

2) Armored fighting vehicles gained two advancements in their design, making shaped charge based weapons more and more less usefull against them. First are ballistic protection made from advanced composite armor and advanced explosive reactive armor. Second are active protection systems.

3) Why the hell You want to destroy minefields with artillery?! There are dedicated methods to deal with minefields.

I think 10 ATGMs fired simultaneously will kill Any tank including M1 A 2 Abrams

And how much will 10 ATGMs cost Maximum ONE million dollars

This incudes the cost of Jeep like vehicle carriers for the ATGM crew
I saw a study somewhere that showed, that simultaneously firing more than single ATGM at one tanks is unrealistic, coordination on the battlefield of all ATGM operators is just immposible to do that. Also it depends where You hit vehicle, and if vehicle hade additional means of protection over weaker protected surfaces like hull sides, and if vehicle have active protection system that can deal with simultaneously fired threats.
 
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militarysta

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I think 10 ATGMs fired simultaneously will kill Any tank including M1 A 2 Abrams

And how much will 10 ATGMs cost Maximum ONE million dollars

This incudes the cost of Jeep like vehicle carriers for the ATGM crew
But it's impossible situation on battlefield.
And how many ATGMs squad survive SPH fire? Did You ever read about artilery fire? I did. I must to known that-so yes, I know. What if those battery wil placed smoke on battlefield and tanks go trought area? Sorry life is not so simple.

BTW: For all DFI users:
www.specops.pl/vortal/download/files/zmech_biblia.zip
Polish Mechanizated Forces basic manuals :) Get all and read please :)
BTW: Akim -it will be interesting for You I suppose. Those manuals are in polish but in MS Word format.
 
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pankaj nema

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Why the hell You want to destroy minefields with artillery?! There are dedicated methods to deal with minefields.


.
Well it is NOT my idea I read it in another forum which is run by an EXPERT
who answers ALL sorts of queries from irritating kids like me

This expert person wrote in India - Pak context and I quote

Field artillery howitzers are reqd for massed firepower on a sustained basis. For instance, in order to destroy minefields & dug-in infantry positions prior to an armoured assault, at least 150,000 rounds of 120mm, 130mm & 155mm ammunition will have to be fired over a 7-hour period.
 

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