Is Russia still our friend? Poll

[Akim]

So no gifts and coming with 1960-1980 , but latest blah blah matter is Vikramaditya and the T 50 , please come to 2015

And Mi-35 to Pakistan.

 

[sgarg]

Then India must be prepared to concede in favor of China the territorial issue it has went to war against it in the past and on a lot more issues. If India goes this way then it will be Nehru looking like a fool against before the Indo-Sino war... (China will not concede a single inch on its territorial claims versus India)

You need to be more specific for India has diverged and converged many times with the West in the past. It's pointless to be talking of general assumptions.

You're too naive. No country buys billions upon billions of Dollars of military equipment from other countries purely on account of economic advantages.

You are very good in making assumptions. So the same continues. India has ALREADY conceded the territorial issue in favour of China by accepting Tibet as part of China. What more is to be conceded??
You need to offer arguments in favour of supporting your line. Your one liners do not impress me. May be some other posters here who are generally ignorant may be impressed by you, but not me.
India buys equipment from USA as a hedge and as a way to balance trade. If you think there is some "hidden" strategic relationship, there is none.

 

[pmaitra]

PRC is going to be the world leader, and will remain so for the next few centuries.

PRC offers a lot to Russia, and India offers very little. Whether we like it or not, with the west becoming increasingly hostile towards Russia, Russia has no choice but to align with PRC. PRC helps Russia and Russia in return helps PRC.

What India must do:

• The basic thing is to start making defence equipment in India and cut down on imports.
• The second thing is to make India's economy self sufficient so that international economic ripple effects do not affect India. Recall how the Housing Bubble sent shock-waves around the world, but not in India.
• Be friends with all, ally with none.

What India must avoid:

• Start a war with PRC. India will not benefit from it. Not in the next couple of centuries.
• Building alliances. They do not necessarily prevent wars. They only obligate participating countries to fight wars they do not need.

Question in the opening post: Should India make its relationship with Russia transactional?
The answer is: The relationship is already transactional. We need to stop being cry-babies and stop expecting Russia to treat India the way the USSR treated India. India is not Poland or Baltika. India is much greater than that.

 

[Razor]

PRC is going to be the world leader, and will remain so for the next few centuries.

PRC offers a lot to Russia, and India offers very little. Whether we like it or not, with the west becoming increasingly hostile towards Russia, Russia has no choice but to align with PRC. PRC helps Russia and Russia in return helps PRC.

If PRC is going to be world leader, why is the US driving "the big gas station" (Obamma's words) towards China?
----------

Also, there is no true friendship. Every friendship has at least a bit of self-interest, harsh reality.

So it seems India has decided to explore other "friends" and likewise Russia does the same.

In the future there are going to be conflicts with China. Lets see if "friend" USA will stand by India

PS: I can not seem to remember a single "friend" of the US that isn't a vassal and doesn't have to vote according to the globalist agenda of the "freedom/democracy lovers" who run the US. Can someone help me here.

 

[Zebra]

Please check post #9 of this thread.

I like this part..........

It's time we pull our Bongo - bindi heads out of our asses and acknowledge that. Buy more American/European stuff.

And make them in India too.

 

[sgarg]

Please check post #9 of this thread.

I like this part..........
And make them in India too.

The only problem is India is not important to USA/EU. India is JUST A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY to them. It is Indian who are jumping for the empire's attention. The empire barely notices India's presence.

People talk about Russia where it is France that routinely inflates its contracts with India and is very bureaucratic. No "friendship" is visible in French dealings.
USA supplied 20 artillery locating radars are in-operational due to lack of spares. Nobody talks about that. How much experience India has operating USA-origin equipment?? At least the French score here.

I see argument for argument sake here. India has successfully used Soviet and Russian equipment for decades and fought actual wars with it. We shall see how much American equipment is useful in an actual war.

 

[sgarg]

If PRC is going to be world leader, why is the US driving "the big gas station" (Obamma's words) towards China?
----------

Also, there is no true friendship. Every friendship has at least a bit of self-interest, harsh reality.

So it seems India has decided to explore other "friends" and likewise Russia does the same.

In the future there are going to be conflicts with China. Lets see if "friend" USA will stand by India

PS: I can not seem to remember a single "friend" of the US that isn't a vassal and doesn't have to vote according to the globalist agenda of the "freedom/democracy lovers" who run the US. Can someone help me here.

USA views Eurasian Union as a threat as it undermines its influence in the world. It is a known fact that 70% of world population is no longer supportive of American domination. The Americans have destabilized one country after another in the 21st century and continue to crush more.
China is fast gaining prominence from South America to Africa to Asia as a counter-balance to USA.

 

[Zebra]

The only problem is India is not important to USA/EU. India is JUST A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY to them. It is Indian who are jumping for the empire's attention. The empire barely notices India's presence.

People talk about Russia where it is France that routinely inflates its contracts with India and is very bureaucratic. No "friendship" is visible in French dealings.
USA supplied 20 artillery locating radars are in-operational due to lack of spares. Nobody talks about that. How much experience India has operating USA-origin equipment?? At least the French score here.

I see argument for argument sake here. India has successfully used Soviet and Russian equipment for decades and fought actual wars with it. We shall see how much American equipment is useful in an actual war.

That is what you Russian Representatives tried to sell here on DFI since long back.

But reality is just opposite to it.......

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/39618-us-offers-match-indias-ally-russia.html

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/international-politics/64871-henry-kissinger-s-words-wisdom.html

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Russia is nobody's friend. Russia has never been anybody's friend. It has allies and competitors, much like anyone else in the nations.
Time and again we keep forgetting that Russians are perhaps the most cold blooded players of geo-politics.
It is their objective insight of world intrigue and its ruthless utilization, that they have been more effective in protecting their interests, than the even more powerful players like US.
If there's anyone who knows best how to wield power however much it be, and work wonders with it, it is Russia.

As for the Indian concerns on Russia in regard to Pak-China; Russians have due reasons :
--Russia currently is trying to melt ice with Pak for long term reasons, as US-NATO are drawing back from Af-Pak theatre.
--Russia is also trying to break west imposed chokes (that pose an existential threat) and thus the stress on currencly deals, oil deals, defense deals with China-Pak etc.

It is true that the world has moved on from the bi-polar cold war. But another truth lies beside it, Russia is emerging smarter and grittier.
Wise ones deliberately keep their ranks hazy in geo-politics. That is because their stands are dictated by how best the self-preservation can be forwarded based on ground realities. Groudd realities that are ever changing.
Regardless of how much we would want/imagine, these things don't work by college canteen emotions like friendship etc.
From where we stand today and specially where Russia stands, we can't stop them from selling to whoever they want.
What we can do however is ride the learning curve - build indigenous, buy from whoever we want to and sell to whoever we want to, smile nice, talk soft to all and carry a big stick everywhere.

Regards,
Virendra

Ofcourse, it is much easier to wield power when you have dictator as head of govt. But history does not confirm that they were so good at self-preservation.

And China falls in the same category.

 

[sgarg]

Ofcourse, it is much easier to wield power when you have dictator as head of govt. But history does not confirm that they were so good at self-preservation.

And China falls in the same category.

Absolute BS. Putin is NOT a dictator. And I bet Xi is not one either. A lot of people (Congressi) call Modi a dictator - is he one?

Putin, Xi and Modi did not seize power. All three were elected through due process in their respective countries. Indians fall for Western lies too easily.

 

[sgarg]

That is what you Russian Representatives tried to sell here on DFI since long back.

But reality is just opposite to it.......

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/39618-us-offers-match-indias-ally-russia.html

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/international-politics/64871-henry-kissinger-s-words-wisdom.html

Don't you see the irony in the words - "us-offers-match-indias-ally-russia"? Why US wants to MATCH Russia? Is this a healthy "friendship" in any sense of the word.
Henry Kissinger is an old man now and nobody listens to him anymore in his own country. So spare me Kissinger drivel.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Absolute BS. Putin is NOT a dictator. And I bet Xi is not one either. A lot of people (Congressi) call Modi a dictator - is he one?

Putin, Xi and Modi did not seize power. All three were elected through due process in their respective countries. Indians fall for Western lies too easily.

So was Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Stalin etc.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Absolute BS. Putin is NOT a dictator. And I bet Xi is not one either. A lot of people (Congressi) call Modi a dictator - is he one?

Putin, Xi and Modi did not seize power. All three were elected through due process in their respective countries. Indians fall for Western lies too easily.

Btw, you missed the whole point of my post.

All I meant to say was it is much easier to implement/pursue a policy when there are not many different power centres. If you want to say that democratic India has same diversification of power as in today's Russia, then I have to say you are good at jokes!!

 

[Ray]

I wonder if PRC is going to be a world leader. It is already slipping and is getting a trifle worn at the ends. It economy has peaked and there is nothing beyond. Its workers are no longer the jingoist Communist but are in the mound of labour of capitalist countries. Less is no longer More that fuelled the Chinese labour under the changed approach of Deng.

It is make belief to believe that Russia is enamoured by China. It is merely a charade since that is realism and realpolitik for the moment. One must not forget the distaste that was there in the past, where the fraternal brotherhood spilt without a tear lost. Russia is very wary of the lustful ogling and 'infiltration' in Russian Eastern frontiers, so much so, it is alleged that Russia is flooding the area with 'European' Russians as they did in the past.

India has to get 'smart'. All that nonsense of moralist claptrap of Gandhi and Nehruvian India has to be jettisoned. India has to look after its national interest. It has to get self-sufficient in all ways and become an exporter and not an importer. That will give India the clout that it has abdicated all these years with juvenile ideas of moralism in an immoral world that only laughed at India's stupidity of not being able to carry its weight that it deserved as a large land mass, huge population and blessed with natural resources.

Wars are no answer. Sun Tsu's saying that the acme of winning is to make the adversary lose without a fight must be the credo.

China is a paper tiger and can actually be put in its place if only we stop having this passive attitude to it. Xinjiang and Tibet are ideal hunting ground and like China, which supports, abets and funds our secessionists and terrorists, we should give them the same back with the same innocent protestation that they apply. Likewise to Pakistan, which is the easiest thing to be done given the chaos that prevails there, not only sectarian but regional too.

China has to be boxed in without raising the tempo. Strategic partnership with US and allies in the Pacific rim would go a long way. A reverse 'String of Pearls', if you will with all the innocence that the Chinaman shows for its strategy.

Build bases in the Indian Ocean friendly countries like Mauritius, Seychelles, Madagascar etc. That allows sea denial as also establishes a strategic deterrent footprint.

Allow foreign Navies berthing facilities in Indian ports to include US, its allies and even Russia. Flood the Indian Ocean with foreign navies with diverse strategic interest. It will ensure it to be 'zone of peace'.

And in the interim, have a 'Peaceful Rise' of India.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I wonder if PRC is going to be a world leader. It is already slipping and is getting a trifle worn at the ends. It economy has peaked and there is nothing beyond. Its workers are no longer the jingoist Communist but are in the mound of labour of capitalist countries. Less is no longer More that fuelled the Chinese labour under the changed approach of Deng.

It is make belief to believe that Russia is enamoured by China. It is merely a charade since that is realism and realpolitik for the moment. One must not forget the distaste that was there in the past, where the fraternal brotherhood spilt without a tear lost. Russia is very wary of the lustful ogling and 'infiltration' in Russian Eastern frontiers, so much so, it is alleged that Russia is flooding the area with 'European' Russians as they did in the past.

India has to get 'smart'. All that nonsense of moralist claptrap of Gandhi and Nehruvian India has to be jettisoned. India has to look after its national interest. It has to get self-sufficient in all ways and become an exporter and not an importer. That will give India the clout that it has abdicated all these years with juvenile ideas of moralism in an immoral world that only laughed at India's stupidity of not being able to carry its weight that it deserved as a large land mass, huge population and blessed with natural resources.

Wars are no answer. Sun Tsu's saying that the acme of winning is to make the adversary lose without a fight must be the credo.

China is a paper tiger and can actually be put in its place if only we stop having this passive attitude to it. Xinjiang and Tibet are ideal hunting ground and like China, which supports, abets and funds our secessionists and terrorists, we should give them the same back with the same innocent protestation that they apply. Likewise to Pakistan, which is the easiest thing to be done given the chaos that prevails there, not only sectarian but regional too.

China has to be boxed in without raising the tempo. Strategic partnership with US and allies in the Pacific rim would go a long way. A reverse 'String of Pearls', if you will with all the innocence that the Chinaman shows for its strategy.

Build bases in the Indian Ocean friendly countries like Mauritius, Seychelles, Madagascar etc. That allows sea denial as also establishes a strategic deterrent footprint.

Allow foreign Navies berthing facilities in Indian ports to include US, its allies and even Russia. Flood the Indian Ocean with foreign navies with diverse strategic interest. It will ensure it to be 'zone of peace'.

And in the interim, have a 'Peaceful Rise' of India.

May be you are right in your analysis. But I would comment on the bold part.

I think China is seeing an inflexion point where it will transition to knowledge based economy. Why do I say so? Go to any part of the world and Chinese form a significant part of any decent university. They are hard working and good students. I do not see how a generation of hard working educated society cannot keep up the growth momentum. Yes, there are problems, specifically due to one child norm and their population has already peaked. But it would be a slow decay and can be arrested by moving into high productivity sectors. So, I do not think your observation on economy will hold out, unless there is a big recession and Communist party is thrown out.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Russia is now a neutral state for the sub continent. So, we cannot tell that Russia is a complete friend of India. But we can depend on Russia rather than being slaves of UNCLE SAM. We have to help Russia to come out of its economical difficulties. We lack good leaders to negotiate with Russia in a proper manner. Lets see what MODI JI can do....

The main concern about Russia is time and money. Time in delivering the equipment and arms and rising money if the time gets extended..... If we can negotiate with the Russians we can get the work done. I still believe that Russian technology is superior to what UNCLE SAM will give to us........

 

[Zebra]

Don't you see the irony in the words - "us-offers-match-indias-ally-russia"? Why US wants to MATCH Russia? Is this a healthy "friendship" in any sense of the word.
Henry Kissinger is an old man now and nobody listens to him anymore in his own country. So spare me Kissinger drivel.

Only and only Russian representatives find irony in it.

And why US offers to match Russia bcz Russians are idiots.

They butchered 26 million of their own country people.

We don't want to do it India.

-----------------------------

Second, they are words of Kissinger and US govt still listen to it carefully, no matter what.

 

[sgarg]

@Casper, so you consider me Russian representative. Well thank you. Hope somebody in Putin's administration is reading your posts.

OK tell me how did USA match Russia? Well consider this -
95% of Indian tanks are Russian origin
Bulk of Indian artillery is Russian origin
Bulk of India's frigates and destroyers are either Russian origin or use Russian weapons
Most of India's fighter aircraft are Russian origin

What did USA offer so far to MATCH Russian contribution - some overpriced transports.

What happened in USSR is no longer relevant as USSR is dead. Americans are not far behind in deaths. Read about wars and pogroms in USA. Ignorance can be cured by reading.

Yes it is true that USA has caused more deaths overseas than in USA itself.

 

[sgarg]

A friendship is always between two willing people. It takes two hands to clap. If India thinks Russia need to subsidize its arms, then the question is what India offers in return?

Why US "friends" not ask USA to give some free goodies to India - like a few squadrons of fighters. After all USA has been paying up Pakistan year after year, right starting in fifties. Now as India has become a "friend", India also deserves some goodies.

I find it really funny people wanting this and that from Russia - while considering it not-friend; while the "friend" USA is only interested in channeling India's defence budget towards some very expensive, mostly useless items.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Can you show me any document supporting that France would have done the same back in 1988? I am pretty sure that Indian nuclear submarine program exists because we were allowed to lease INS Chakra.

Regarding the love Americans had/have for India. I see that everyday.

Bhopal disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Warren Anderson (American businessman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So, unless you can find any instance of Russia killing thousands of Indians and the company and it's owner responsible was shamelessly protected by the president (Reagan) then forgive me for not jumping with excitement.

One company does not represent USA. The Bhopal disaster was unforeseen and not in usa's
Control. India's economic miracle is from a change which favors trade with the west . Russia has
Almost no part of it.