INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Shaitan]

It works out to be less than INR 50,000 per piece against the current dollar rate. And we flaunt cheap labor and production cost in India to woo the FDIs !
Such a criminal misuse of taxpayer money to buy a junk rifle and awarding the incompetence of OFB babus.

"FN’s contract with the Army is $77 million for the first 120,000 rifles, which works out to a bottom line of just under $642 per M4A1. These will be manufactured at FNH USA in South Carolina along side the M16A4s and M249s FNH USA currently produces for the U.S. armed forces."

FNH Lands Army M4 Contract, Underbids Colt, Remington :: Guns.com

In this final round of bidding for the U.S. Army contract for up to $180 million's worth of M4A1 carbines, FNH has placed the last and lowest bid.

www.guns.com

Fortunately, good sense prevailed and we ordered SIGs; which will definitely come handy on Chinese front due to longer effective range. But we can't rule out OFB/MOD's continuous efforts to shove down their another crap in .308 caliber INSAS down the throat of IA. Hope this time, IA wouldn't let them succeed in their shenanigans.

It's not only that, their ammunition is subpar. The SSS Defence guys trialing with OFB ammo says the same, then again both are competitors, but I believe them.

 

[Suryavanshi]

It's not only that, their ammunition is subpar. The SSS Defence guys trialing with OFB ammo says the same, then again both are competitors, but I believe them.

I also have this feeling that the OFB ammunition cost more than it's counterparts worldwide.
Why I say this, OFB is a very sluggish Organisations they don't seem to fo for supply line optimization.
I would be happy to be proven wrong tho

 

[piKacHHu]

But comparing every indigenous weapon or system to a western competitor and running down our institutions is misguided and wrong. Most of the Western Arms companies have been producing weapons for decades and have amortised costs. Most of the time our weapons will fare poorly in the comparison. But we are a developing country with a short history and we will suffer from some defects for some time. If our indigenous weapons meet minimum standards then they should be supported.

Its like wanting very fair beautiful blonde Western women as wives and looking down on Indian women. But the truth is that by marrying an Indian woman you have a greater chance of a successful marriage. The foreigner will probably dump the Indian husband in a few years.

Simply heart wrenching account of our love for phoren maal !

Your argument is correct for strategic defense systems (Like fighters, AWACS, EW Radars etc. for which we need to depend on OEM countries for maintenance and upgrades. For the sake of "Strategic Autonomy" , indigenous solutions are needed and we are doing it well in the field of ballistic missile programs, Radars, etc.

For a $1000 a pop rifle, you need a couple of experienced gun smiths , CNC-Lathe machining tools, good material sourcing, good QA , and QC practices, that's it. It's neither a rocket science nor nuclear engineering. CARACAL has done the same with no prior experience in arms manufacturing. Heck, even the madarssa chaps are making decent copies of AK/AR at FATA region of Pakistan.

But here, despite of all bad press given to INSAS for decades, it seems OFB has hardened its stand to not deviate a inch from its beloved INSAS design for even its upgraded iterations. It must be a shame for OFB to see RR/CRPF Cobras adopting AKs in place of INSAS for CT ops. They didn't wake-up from slumber to just provide latest production batch with foldable/telescopic butt stock and full-auto version. They kept churning out orange painted junk. Therefore, I am judging it purely from its track record and the new products they are pitching for INSAS replacement which sadly seems devoid of innovation.

INSAS replacement program is not going to eat up the budget of IA as the cost of acquisition is not so high. Equipping your infantry to teeth with best rifles and protective gears must be the first priority before the MOD before signing any fancy contract for MBT & Missile procurement. We should stop treating the life of jawans like dispensable cannon fodder.

For private player part, I agree they must be given chance, in fact, a production line in collaboration with SIGs could develop ecosystem for quality small arms production in India, which can be replicated for carbine/LMG replacement programs.

 

[Suryavanshi]

He he check this out.

Humne bahut mehnat ki he hume kam se mat nikalo

 

[Tridev123]

Insas use MINSAS round 30mm not 45 mm. The time for that round is over as an assault rifle.

INSAS is done and dusted. Army will likely fall in love with New Aks and ARs.

Perhaps private industry can compete and bring better or similar iteration of them.

You are wrong in stating that the Insas assault rifle uses 5.56 * 30 calibre ammunition. The original idea of designing the Insas was to have a replacement for the SLR. The assault rifle Insas uses 5.56 * 45 calibre ammunition, a NATO round.

The Carbine version of the Insas Assault Rifle uses a lower powered bullet. 5.56 * 30. It was a failure. I believe it was called Mini Insas.

You can confirm the facts with service members or ex army men. Please check the facts before posting.
The 5.56 * 45 round still powers most of the world's assault rifles especially the Western countries. The TAVOR assault rifles used by the Para Commandos use
5.56 * 45 rounds. By no means is the round outdated or obsolete

Big drawback of the more powerful 7.62 * 51 round is that firing in auto means unmanageable recoil.

 

[Tridev123]

Simply heart wrenching account of our love for phoren maal !

Your argument is correct for strategic defense systems (Like fighters, AWACS, EW Radars etc. for which we need to depend on OEM countries for maintenance and upgrades. For the sake of "Strategic Autonomy" , indigenous solutions are needed and we are doing it well in the field of ballistic missile programs, Radars, etc.

For a $1000 a pop rifle, you need a couple of experienced gun smiths , CNC-Lathe machining tools, good material sourcing, good QA , and QC practices, that's it. It's neither a rocket science nor nuclear engineering. CARACAL has done the same with no prior experience in arms manufacturing. Heck, even the madarssa chaps are making decent copies of AK/AR at FATA region of Pakistan.

But here, despite of all bad press given to INSAS for decades, it seems OFB has hardened its stand to not deviate a inch from its beloved INSAS design for even its upgraded iterations. It must be a shame for OFB to see RR/CRPF Cobras adopting AKs in place of INSAS for CT ops. They didn't wake-up from slumber to just provide latest production batch with foldable/telescopic butt stock and full-auto version. They kept churning out orange painted junk. Therefore, I am judging it purely from its track record and the new products they are pitching for INSAS replacement which sadly seems devoid of innovation.

INSAS replacement program is not going to eat up the budget of IA as the cost of acquisition is not so high. Equipping your infantry to teeth with best rifles and protective gears must be the first priority before the MOD before signing any fancy contract for MBT & Missile procurement. We should stop treating the life of jawans like dispensable cannon fodder.

For private player part, I agree they must be given chance, in fact, a production line in collaboration with SIGs could develop ecosystem for quality small arms production in India, which can be replicated for carbine/LMG replacement programs.

I said kick out OFB from Insas manufacture. I am asking for the private sector to be given a chance.
It is a also a question of pride. We build space rockets, ICBM's and nuclear submarines but can't build a decent rifle. That hurts. The Pakis and Chinks on PDF taunt Indian members on this. We need to prove them wrong.

 

[aditya g]

I had said that the Insas can replace old bolt action rifles in the States Armed Police battalions. What is wrong with that. I did not say guarantee sales to the Army. Obviously the MHA will buy the Insas only if they meet specifications. The private company will be told that we guarantee 200,000 sales only if the rifles are in acceptable condition. So nobody is being forced to buy shit.

Do you not want to see the ugly duckling turn into a beauty?. Is there no room for improvement on the Insas platform?.Allow the private sector to try.

INSAS with kit furniture. There is also the INSAS 1C if brand new is required.

So upgrade options are available, but this is too less too late. In any case I dont think state police needs assault rifles except for a small number. Amogh and JVPC are the way to go for armed police.

 

[Tridev123]

Simply heart wrenching account of our love for phoren maal !

Your argument is correct for strategic defense systems (Like fighters, AWACS, EW Radars etc. for which we need to depend on OEM countries for maintenance and upgrades. For the sake of "Strategic Autonomy" , indigenous solutions are needed and we are doing it well in the field of ballistic missile programs, Radars, etc.

For a $1000 a pop rifle, you need a couple of experienced gun smiths , CNC-Lathe machining tools, good material sourcing, good QA , and QC practices, that's it. It's neither a rocket science nor nuclear engineering. CARACAL has done the same with no prior experience in arms manufacturing. Heck, even the madarssa chaps are making decent copies of AK/AR at FATA region of Pakistan.

But here, despite of all bad press given to INSAS for decades, it seems OFB has hardened its stand to not deviate a inch from its beloved INSAS design for even its upgraded iterations. It must be a shame for OFB to see RR/CRPF Cobras adopting AKs in place of INSAS for CT ops. They didn't wake-up from slumber to just provide latest production batch with foldable/telescopic butt stock and full-auto version. They kept churning out orange painted junk. Therefore, I am judging it purely from its track record and the new products they are pitching for INSAS replacement which sadly seems devoid of innovation.

INSAS replacement program is not going to eat up the budget of IA as the cost of acquisition is not so high. Equipping your infantry to teeth with best rifles and protective gears must be the first priority before the MOD before signing any fancy contract for MBT & Missile procurement. We should stop treating the life of jawans like dispensable cannon fodder.

For private player part, I agree they must be given chance, in fact, a production line in collaboration with SIGs could develop ecosystem for quality small arms production in India, which can be replicated for carbine/LMG replacement programs.

Dont tell me you have not lusted for Brooke Shields or a Angelina Jolie. For the West sex is a big selling point Many defence deals are sealed with white, sexy escorts playing an important part.

 

[piKacHHu]

The Carbine version of the Insas Assault Rifle uses a lower powered bullet. 5.56 * 30. It was a failure. I believe it was called Mini Insas.

I don't understand the rationale of switching to intermediate round 5.56 * 30 from 9mm for carbine role. Currently, there are plenty of options available in AR-15 style Pistols & SBRs (Short Barreled Rifles) which offers lower recoil yet more punch than the 9mm or even 5.56 * 30. Adding JVPC for carbine role will add another logistic nightmare in addition to 7.62x51/ 7.62x39/ 5.56x45.

Checkmate Guns Liberator Pistol AR15 10.5″ Tactical AR-15 SBR/PDW (Short Barreled Rifle/Personal Defense Weapon) with Civilian-Legal Two-Shot/Double-Tap Trigger System and SIG SAUER SIGTAC SB15 Stabilizing Brace/Buttstock (Video!)

By David Crane david (at) defensereview (dot) com The following article is property of DefenseReview.com (DR) and is copyrighted material. If you are reading this article on another website other than DefenseReview.com, please email us the website address/URL (where the unauthorized DR article...

www.defensereview.com

 

[Flying Dagger]

You use too strong words for a fanboy. Nor all you have been saying has anything do with facts either.

1. I stand corrected it says it can take NATO standard round But the rounds provided by OFB in comparison to NATO standard one well let those who have used tell us abt it.

2. The move to 7.62 *51 mm round is due to change in strategy of army. Infact even in USA and intermediate round 6.8 mm calibre is in talks and was in India too few years back.

3. Now firing in Auto mode.



The recoil generated isn't unmanageable that's a very stupid statement . Let's rephrase it first , the recoil is high but with the new ARs that's a useless point as the recoil has decreased a lot in modern rifles .

It would be the same case for INSAS too between how often you think soldier fire their rifles in full auto mode ? Every round counts.

Perhaps the no. of round a soldier can carry and weight might be an issue that's it.

Having said that army is replacing them for right reasons infact we should have never diverted from the original slr rounds for replacement.

You are wrong in stating that the Insas assault rifle uses 5.56 * 30 calibre ammunition. The original idea of designing the Insas was to have a replacement for the SLR. The assault rifle Insas uses 5.56 * 45 calibre ammunition, a NATO round.

The Carbine version of the Insas Assault Rifle uses a lower powered bullet. 5.56 * 30. It was a failure. I believe it was called Mini Insas.

You can confirm the facts with service members or ex army men. Please check the facts before posting.
The 5.56 * 45 round still powers most of the world's assault rifles especially the Western countries. The TAVOR assault rifles used by the Para Commandos use
5.56 * 45 rounds. By no means is the round outdated or obsolete

Big drawback of the more powerful 7.62 * 51 round is that firing in auto means unmanageable recoil.

 

[Tridev123]

You use too strong words for a fanboy. Nor all you have been saying has anything do with facts either.

1. I stand corrected it says it can take NATO standard round But the rounds provided by OFB in comparison to NATO standard one well let those who have used tell us abt it.

2. The move to 7.62 *51 mm round is due to change in strategy of army. Infact even in USA and intermediate round 6.8 mm calibre is in talks and was in India too few years back.

3. Now firing in Auto mode.



The recoil generated isn't unmanageable that's a very stupid statement . Let's rephrase it first , the recoil is high but with the new ARs that's a useless point as the recoil has decreased a lot in modern rifles .

It would be the same case for INSAS too between how often you think soldier fire their rifles in full auto mode ? Every round counts.

Perhaps the no. of round a soldier can carry and weight might be an issue that's it.

Having said that army is replacing them for right reasons infact we should have never diverted from the original slr rounds for replacement.

Just because I correct you on facts I become a fan boy?. The first 500,000 Insas rifles manufactured were 5.56 * 45 calibre. The Carbine version with 5.56 * 30 calibre round came much later. I don't believe even 1% of infantrymen handled the mini Insas Carbine. It was designed around the 5.56 * 45 calibre round. As far as OFB made rounds being sub par and defective - dozens of countries probably even above a hundred manufacture the 5.56 * 45 round. Do all of them have 100% match in performance?. Minor Variations in performance does not make the OFB 5.56 * 45 round a 5.56 * 30 round. It stays a 5.56 *45 round. Stop clutching at straws.

I say kick out OFB from the Insas manufacture and give the production to a reputed private company. Am I an OFB/PSU fan boy. Please calm down. Seems like I touched a raw nerve. If I am a fan boy who are you - Mukesh Ambani.

Both the 5.56 and the 7.62 have their own role to play. Why are our elite forces the Paracommandos(Special Forces) using the Israeli Tavor assault rifle chambered for the 5.56 * 45 round as their primary weapon. They also use the SCAR-H (7.62 * 51) rifle. Depends on the combat situation. DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM?.

I have used polite language. If you feel offended I cannot help you. My advice. Argue on the merits of the case rather than get emotional.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

OFB Amogh Carbine

 

[vampyrbladez]

OFB Amogh Carbine

It may sound rude but I am more interested in the Bulgarian M1F rifle. The Amogh Carbine lost all utility with the arrival of the JVPC.

 

[vampyrbladez]

INSAS is a badly designed gun borrowing good elements from contemporary guns but delivering nothing.

If ARDE had some brains, they would have simply studied the Galil more as that was what the INSAS should have been. Instead they made a hodgepodge AK-HK33-FNC-AUG (Magazines only) which ruined the rifle's potential.

Now they are belatedly attempting to do that with the 5.56x45 mm ARDE/OFB Carbine. I have some tips on how to improve the rifle somewhere in this thread.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Here are my suggestions should anyone like to go through them.

Some suggestions :

1) Change the butt stock to something similar to a MAGPUL Zukhov style one.

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/the-magpul-zhukov-folding-stock-review/

2) Use Galil style iron sights which can function as BUIS (Back Up Iron Sights) instead of the crude INSAS ones.

Vs

3) Change that awful pistol grip to a more modern and better suited off shelf solution.

4) Change the FNC style muzzle device and allow for user preferences.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ak-muzzle-device-test-part-1-recoil-reduction/

5) Add a semi magazine well for the OFB Carbine in the style of the Galil ACE. This will reduce the 'rattling' effect seen in the INSAS magazine which leads to 'failure to feed' issues.

6) Picantinny rail attachment must be refined to have no break in between at the gas port. Refer to the previous image for such a configuration.

Congratulations OFB! Now you have a bonafide off brand Galil ACE!

 

[Tridev123]

. . Offering constructive suggestions. As they say, instead of cursing the darkness, light a candle.

 

[Shaitan]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Just because I correct you on facts I become a fan boy?. The first 500,000 Insas rifles manufactured were 5.56 * 45 calibre. The Carbine version with 5.56 * 30 calibre round came much later. I don't believe even 1% of infantrymen handled the mini Insas Carbine. It was designed around the 5.56 * 45 calibre round. As far as OFB made rounds being sub par and defective - dozens of countries probably even above a hundred manufacture the 5.56 * 45 round. Do all of them have 100% match in performance?. Minor Variations in performance does not make the OFB 5.56 * 45 round a 5.56 * 30 round. It stays a 5.56 *45 round. Stop clutching at straws.

I say kick out OFB from the Insas manufacture and give the production to a reputed private company. Am I an OFB/PSU fan boy. Please calm down. Seems like I touched a raw nerve. If I am a fan boy who are you - Mukesh Ambani.

Both the 5.56 and the 7.62 have their own role to play. Why are our elite forces the Paracommandos(Special Forces) using the Israeli Tavor assault rifle chambered for the 5.56 * 45 round as their primary weapon. They also use the SCAR-H (7.62 * 51) rifle. Depends on the combat situation. DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM?.

I have used polite language. If you feel offended I cannot help you. My advice. Argue on the merits of the case rather than get emotional.

It is you getting all emotional and kiddish here.

Between Indian army has moved on to 7.62 *51 mm now. It was stupid to say they can't manage the recoil ( and am not twisting your words )

DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM? Ohh sorry yes you do.

 

[Tridev123]

It is you getting all emotional and kiddish here.

Between Indian army has moved on to 7.62 *51 mm now. It was stupid to say they can't manage the recoil ( and am not twisting your words )

DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM? Ohh sorry yes you do.

How stupid can you get. You said the 5.56 * 45 round is on the way out. I replied that the best troops of the army still use the Tavor as the primary weapon. Come back when all the Special Forces use the Sig 7.62 as their primary weapon

I do not want to argue with an immature novice. Only an ignorant person would make a statement that the main Insas rifle uses the 5.56 * 30 calibre bullet. Nearly a million Insas rifles of 5.56 * 45 calibre have been produced. There are hardly 100 mini Insas which use the 5.56 * 30 calibre that have been produced.
You are nothing but a gas bag full of hot air who pretends to know about rifles.

Be happy in your la la land. Read your Little Red Riding Hood and Scooby Doo comics.

 

[Tridev123]

It is you getting all emotional and kiddish here.

Between Indian army has moved on to 7.62 *51 mm now. It was stupid to say they can't manage the recoil ( and am not twisting your words )

DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN THEM? Ohh sorry yes you do

And send me a video of you firing a full 20 round magazine in auto from the Sig 7.62.I guess you will be standing steady like the Rock of Gibraltar and caring a damn about the recoil.

You can still manage the recoil from the 5.56 when firing in auto. But the 7.62 * 51.
Have you actually even fired an assault rifle.

And YES, full auto firing does take place in close combat especially in counter terrorism operations. Like clearing a house of terrorists. That is why many soldiers prefer lower powered carbines in counter terrorism in urban areas.