INSAS Excalibur In Person

[SPIEZ]

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I was doing some research on the same for quite a long time

All weapons these days are moving towards having the barrel in line with the shoulder butt for example AK12

The muzzle climb is primarily due to torque. Yup, the same RxF torque we used to study at 11th standard.

And with any case involving torque, there exist a point of application of force and a point about which the object (in this case the rifle) rotates, both lying in the same plane.

Here in the image above, the black point is the point about which the rifle attempts to rotate, and the blue line indicates the line of action of recoil force due to the bullet leaving the barrel. (The reaction force always acts along the line of action, but in the opposite direction)

As can be seen, there is quite a bit of vertical gap between the point of contact and the line or recoil. As such, a torque is generated about the black mark, which in this arrangement comes to be anticlockwise, resulting in the muzzle climb. If the situation was reversed and the gun barrel was below the point of support (contact), the torque would be clockwise, i.e. downward muzzle movement.

However, with the new stock, as can be seen in the image below, the line of action of recoil passes nearly through the point of contact. This implies that there will be nearly no muzzle climb. In effect, the shoulder will be in line with the barrel when the recoil comes, unlike in case of Ak-47, where the rifle barrel is quite above the shoulder. (This is even better in case of certain other rifles.)

Of course many may wonder why I have positioned the support point above where I positioned it on the AK-47, but this is actually the location of centre of pressure. In the case of AK-47, the line of action passes above the stock at the plane of contact, as such, this has a different effect on center of pressure. The forces are evenly distributed across the cross section of the stock end in the case of Ak-47.

While in case of the Excalibur, the line of action of recoil passes through the top of the stock at the plane of contact, meaning the most of the recoil force is concentrated at that point, thus the difference.

Also, the choice of polymer material has another set of advantages. The most important being that polymer is a much better dampener than wood or iron for energy passing through the same thickness of material. As such, shoulder fatigue sets in much later as the shoulder is protected to a greater degree from the energy of recoil.

 

[hitesh]

Like Like Like Like!!!!!!!!

I was doing some research on the same for quite a long time

All weapons these days are moving towards having the barrel in line with the shoulder butt for example AK12

Even if you compare the aiming sights in the image you would notice Excalibur has its sights little raised up compare to Ak47's sight so that compensate the change of butt design also the distance between the rear and front sight plays its role ,in ak12 they changed the position of rear sight .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What Soviats did is for their requirement and Spray and Pray tactics as i have mentioned above is no soviet invention but dated back to pre WW1..

The media quoted someone`s statement long ago and putting it in every place, Including J&K which is not right, Because the need for AK is only coz Indian army do not have proper carbines,According to Indian requirement we need AK simply because we dont have a good carbine for CQB ops, Indian Army prefer Carbines in CQB and 9mm is too old to do so, Carbine are compact and low recoil firearm with a reasonable accuracy, AK fits the bill partially as it has a higher recoil and highly inaccurate in burst mode which is what preferred in most senerio ..

I respect ever words, Brig Sir said but times have changed now and 7.62m43 availability is hard to come-by, Most 7.62m43 captured for tangos are booby trapped hence not used in the same time INSAS 1B1 is getting popular due to avalibility of ammo and spares, Most importantly Improved Ammo has better killing factor, TAR-21 used by para uses OFB 64gr ammo so does special 5.56mm ammo ..

==================

AK-12 is a Rifle in development its no revolutionary rifle either, The credit of what is been take here goes to American with introduction of M-16 ..

AK47 was designed with soviet doctrine of compensating the numeric strength with auto firing guns which would create a wall of bullets and with which solders could be easily trained as it had bigger and less no of parts which required less maintenance. In CQB or CT operation the response time is very low for a solder to aim and shoot so the same soviet doctrine becomes effective in such situation .For IA adopting Ak47 or AKM in j&k was because it did not have an automatic rifle ,as there primary weapon was bulky semi-auto SLR and Srilanka conflict tough them a bitter lesson of how bad the idea of using a semi auto battle rifle would be when facing AK touting tamil tigers. So they adopted AK as it was cheap and easy to acquire ,easy to train. I once heard a talk of a brigadier where he was saying that use of AK's in JK is not because of its bigger round than 5.56 nato but because of availability,rate of fire and reliability and i agree his statement that's why we have tavore full auto 5.56mm in J&k for Special operators.

Like Like Like Like!!!!!!!!

I was doing some research on the same for quite a long time

All weapons these days are moving towards having the barrel in line with the shoulder butt for example AK12

 

[SPIEZ]

Thanks Kunal!

Coming back to 7.62x39 mm M43, do you think it is better to have a fully automatic AKM rather than a burst mode AKM. I'm aware that some soldiers are trained to fire in burst modes.

I'm asking this question, because I believe with INSAS many soldiers were thought to fire 1 round mode.

What Soviats did is for their requirement and Spray and Pray tactics as i have mentioned above is no soviet invention but dated back to pre WW1..

The media quoted someone`s statement long ago and putting it in every place, Including J&K which is not right, Because the need for AK is only coz Indian army do not have proper carbines,According to Indian requirement we need AK simply because we dont have a good carbine for CQB ops, Indian Army prefer Carbines in CQB and 9mm is too old to do so, Carbine are compact and low recoil firearm with a reasonable accuracy, AK fits the bill partially as it has a higher recoil and highly inaccurate in burst mode which is what preferred in most senerio ..

I respect ever words, Brig Sir said but times have changed now and 7.62m43 availability is hard to come-by, Most 7.62m43 captured for tangos are booby trapped hence not used in the same time INSAS 1B1 is getting popular due to avalibility of ammo and spares, Most importantly Improved Ammo has better killing factor, TAR-21 used by para uses OFB 64gr ammo so does special 5.56mm ammo ..

==================

AK-12 is a Rifle in development its no revolutionary rifle either, The credit of what is been take here goes to American with introduction of M-16 ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Soldiers are trained thoroughly for using any firearm, Every part and its use are taught to the soldiers, They are trained to shoot in every position, They are trained to strip and clean the rifle in every conditions, Countless time until its design is printed in solider`s mind, Its not just INSAS but every other fiream they will be using in the force ..

Solider use single shots both in CT so does in Conventional mostly irrespective to their origin, Single shot is accurate and lethal so does economical ( Ak goil Ak Dhusman, One bullet One enemy ) But when its job of cover firing or pinning enemy down, Or just to make spray and pray, full auto is useful ..

Thanks Kunal!

Coming back to 7.62x39 mm M43, do you think it is better to have a fully automatic AKM rather than a burst mode AKM. I'm aware that some soldiers are trained to fire in burst modes.

I'm asking this question, because I believe with INSAS many soldiers were thought to fire 1 round mode.

 

[mikhail]

Sir, Right now i dont have but INSAS 1B1 length is at least 10-15cm longer than the one i am holding..

sir,from the above specification we can safely predict that the INSAS Excalibur A.R. is an ideal A.R. for CQB and other urban warfare scenarios.it's compact size and weight also makes it an extremely handy one in closed enviroments and will serve quite well in the hands of the R.R. Jawaans.i just hope that the I.A. goes ahead and place a substantial order from the O.F.B. instead of buying an expensive foreign A.R. .btw,sir do you have any information regarding it's current price?afaik,the latest INSAS 1B1 csts somewhere between Rs. 35,000-Rs. 50,000.....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I know abt the INSAS older 1B1 cost 22,500 rs, I dont know abt the new ones ..

afaik,the latest INSAS 1B1 csts somewhere between Rs. 35,000-Rs. 50,000.....

 

[kurup]

Sirji , I don't know if it's just me but in this picture the build quality does not look good .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That gun is not a real gun but a replica of Original ..

It has almost everything same as real gun including the weight but not the firing function ..

The real Rifle is grey in colour and the built quality is better than this if not the best ..

 

[ALBY]

What Soviats did is for their requirement and Spray and Pray tactics as i have mentioned above is no soviet invention but dated back to pre WW1..

The media quoted someone`s statement long ago and putting it in every place, Including J&K which is not right, Because the need for AK is only coz Indian army do not have proper carbines,According to Indian requirement we need AK simply because we dont have a good carbine for CQB ops, Indian Army prefer Carbines in CQB and 9mm is too old to do so, Carbine are compact and low recoil firearm with a reasonable accuracy, AK fits the bill partially as it has a higher recoil and highly inaccurate in burst mode which is what preferred in most senerio ..

I respect ever words, Brig Sir said but times have changed now and 7.62m43 availability is hard to come-by, Most 7.62m43 captured for tangos are booby trapped hence not used in the same time INSAS 1B1 is getting popular due to avalibility of ammo and spares, Most importantly Improved Ammo has better killing factor, TAR-21 used by para uses OFB 64gr ammo so does special 5.56mm ammo ..

==================

AK-12 is a Rifle in development its no revolutionary rifle either, The credit of what is been take here goes to American with introduction of M-16 ..

OFB produces m43 ammo.Wht is the problem in ammo?And concernning the reolutionary rifles even the much hhyped SCARs were turnedd out to be not up to the expectations and US SOCOM still relies on HK416 and M4s which are of comparatively old gen

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I never saw OFB M43, This is not the right thread for a **** measuring contest either , would be happy to reply you at some other thread ..

OFB produces m43 ammo.Wht is the problem in ammo?And concernning the reolutionary rifles even the much hhyped SCARs were turnedd out to be not up to the expectations and US SOCOM still relies on HK416 and M4s which are of comparatively old gen

 

[sayareakd]

Not needed

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

may be the army should use 3d printer to make these guns since quality of finished product of ofb is often question by the end user army.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Finishing is a no concern for Army, As long as Rifle works in the condition it is meant to ..

Though i will put this, Been using INSAS for time including 1B1 & Improved 1B1 there is a lot of change, This include its workmanship and material used ..

Though there is always space for improvement and that can be only done if Gov upgrade those 60s era factories in which INSAS are made ..

But again, Our corrupt Gov purposefully kept National defense organizations in back and white so there would be more $$$$ from outside ..

may be the army should use 3d printer to make these guns since quality of finished product of ofb is often question by the end user army.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Looks like they did the needed modifications ..

Ihope they add P Rail so that we can have other things attached to it easily for better performance.

Looks like inspired from SIG SG 550.
But as @sayareakd puts it, a picatinny rail would be nice.
This rifle should see operational service at least to replace older INSAS, till the time MCAR comes out or a new rifle gets selected.

I like what they did with Amogh..

 

[Austinjimson]

Hey Kunal. I wanna know if excalibur,Amogh MINSAS have been inducted to indian army and also this years defence expo 2014 ARDE displayed Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System(MCIWS) rifle which can fire 5.56mm,our desi 6.8mm and ak caliber 7.76 for FINSAS program .Any idea of how FINSAS is going??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Excaliber was in Indian Army but replaced by TAR-21, Now its in Police force ( Punjab ) and may be in Paramilitary ..

Minisas is in active service in Navy, Its MSMC meant for Army and its trails are successful and awaiting for induction ..

MCIWS is meant for FINSAS program, Its in progress ..

 

[sayareakd]

MCIWS is meant for FINSAS program, Its in progress ..

Sir it appears that both are different programme. MCIWS for immediate need and FINSAS is for future.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, For immediate need there is ongoing tender going on of foreign rifles, DRDO MCIWS is not included ..

The tender already came under many corruption allegations and still on ..

Sir it appears that both are different programme. MCIWS for immediate need and FINSAS is for future.

 

[Austinjimson]

Hey Kunal thanks for answering my question. I just wanna know the exact difference between insas 1B1 and insas 1B2 rifles

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