INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier

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Can someone educate me on my noob question that we must focus moar heavily on nuclear submarines and missile-centric navy force because its certainly cost effective, risk efficient and more survivable due to the distributed shooters and their ability to shoot and scoot. These can also effectively be used in area denial operations of our navy. Or we should still go for aircraft carriers that will help us navigate the tech learning curve and so that we are not left behind in carriers race?

Many thanks in advance...
2 aircraft carrier battle groups - 1 each for for Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea is sufficient for IN for this decade.
Funds needed for more ASW ships , Minesweepers , Helos.
Remember we have 2 stationary ACs as well - Lakshadweep and Andaman & Nicobar islands.
Navy wants one in south Indian ocean too for power projection while two defend east and west coasts.

Clearly, not only a third carrier but a supercarrier of 65k-100k tonnes would be needed to stay as dominant force in IOR. SSN too is going under construction next year. So basically, navy is asking for more budget as well. Their budget is lowest among Indian armed forces.

Navy has asked for both things, defensive assets as well as expeditionary capabilities. Let's see if government listens.
 

Trololo

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Navy wants one in south Indian ocean too for power projection while two defend east and west coasts.

Clearly, not only a third carrier but a supercarrier of 65k-100k tonnes would be needed to stay as dominant force in IOR. SSN too is going under construction next year. So basically, navy is asking for more budget as well. Their budget is lowest among Indian armed forces.

Navy has asked for both things, defensive assets as well as expeditionary capabilities. Let's see if government listens.
Broken record mode enabled:

1> Research on naval reactor to be sped up for a carrier grade unit. Worst case 4-5 low power LEU reactors on board which need refuelling every 10-15 years. Similar to early Nimitz class reactors.
2> INS Vikrant design to be improved and stretched and beefed up for IAC-2, with significant automation put in place for reduced crew complement.
3> An Indian EMALS would be nice, or else direct purchase from USA.
4> Prepare 2 shipyards for carrier manufacturing.
5> Prepare factories and workshops elsewhere to make the carrier blocks.
6> Ensure carrier aviation complex supports all existing aircraft and others like tedbf, hornets, rafales, and f35. Why? we may not buy them but should have compatibility in the event there is a joint face-off with the CPC.
7> Points 1 and 2 can happen immediately, and 6 becomes part of the design phase. 4 and 5 can be part of shipyard modernisation and vendor development program.
8> When firm intention comes to order the carrier, we can order 2 at a time and pieces of the puzzle will be ready beforehand.
 

rohit b3

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2 aircraft carrier battle groups - 1 each for for Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea is sufficient for IN for this decade.
Funds needed for more ASW ships , Minesweepers , Helos.
Remember we have 2 stationary ACs as well - Lakshadweep and Andaman & Nicobar islands.
"for this decade"
If the Carrier is approved now, detailed design will begin, then order will be placed a couple of years after, then construction will begin in the mid/later 2020s and it will be commissioned by mid 2030s.
 

silentlurker

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Ensure carrier aviation complex supports all existing aircraft and others like tedbf, hornets, rafales, and f35. Why? we may not buy them but should have compatibility in the event there is a joint face-off with the CPC.
This is how you end up with elevators large enough for Rafales wasting space moving Mig-29Ks. Unless India has inked plans to procure one of these fighters building a CV for them is cart before horse.
 

WolfPack86

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NAVY CHIEF STRONGLY PITCHES FOR THIRD AIRCRAFT CARRIER
New Delhi: A third aircraft carrier for India is "absolutely necessary" to further expand its maritime prowess, and it will be in sync with the country's aspiration to become a USD 5 trillion economy, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Karambir Singh said on Thursday.


Addressing a press conference ahead of the Navy Day on December 4, Admiral Singh said the Navy was moving forward with its plan to have a third aircraft carrier and will place a case for it before the government after collecting all required technical details.

"We have not yet gone to the government for the third aircraft carrier. But we are very clear about the utility of the aircraft carrier. Because the air operations are absolutely integral in naval operations. Air power at sea is absolutely important," he said.

The Chief of Naval Staff said aircraft carriers are "absolutely necessary" for an aspirational India that has nearly one-fifth of the global population and want to raise its overall stature.

The Navy has been pitching for three aircraft carriers to deal with China's growing naval prowess and its growing influence over the Indian Ocean region. At present, India has only one aircraft carrier -- INS Vikramaditya which is a Russian origin platform.

Indigenously built aircraft carrier (IAC) INS Vikrant is expected to be fully operational by 2022.

"The navies are all about reach and sustenance. If you are a nation that is aspirational, if you want to become a five trillion economy, you have one fifth of the world population, if you want to do well, you have to go outwards... For that you require air power. Aircraft carriers are absolutely necessary," the Navy Chief said.

In February, Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat had indicated that the Indian Navy may not get an approval for a third aircraft carrier anytime soon as the priority is to bolster its submarine fleet.

Gen Rawat, who has been tasked to prioritise military procurement, had said that cost could be a major factor in deciding on the issue as aircraft carriers are "very expensive".
 

AmitG

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The govt is being shortsited again. A third carrier is an imperative for power projection. It will take a decade to build. By that time Chinese carriers will be roaming the Indian Ocean freely. Today in a nuclear age its not just about actual war but it’s power projection that counts. Submarines are strategic weapons but it’s the carriers that proj CT power.

What the Chinese have done with Ladakh is that they have forced India to concentrate on the army and airforce and starve the navy of funds. It is the navy and the Indian Ocean where India has a huge advantage against China. If our strategic planners and govt can’t see through this simple Chinese rise then we sure are dumb.
 

no smoking

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The govt is being shortsited again. A third carrier is an imperative for power projection. It will take a decade to build. By that time Chinese carriers will be roaming the Indian Ocean freely. Today in a nuclear age its not just about actual war but it’s power projection that counts. Submarines are strategic weapons but it’s the carriers that proj CT power.
As long as the US navy is staying in East Asia, Chinese navy won't go anywhere but SCS. The best they can do now is some symbolic sailing in India ocean.
 

AZTEC

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In my opinion, IAC-2 is destined to happen, sooner or later.

The main objection people have is that 'carriers are not likely to survive against the Anti-Access/Area-denial (A2AD) systems of advanced nations'. This is true actually, but the point people miss is that most of carrier tasks lie away from the range of advanced A2AD systems. For example:

1) in fighting against small countries with primitive/non-existent A2AD systems (like most of middle-east).
2) in asserting control of vital sea lanes while constantly trying to outrun any enemy submarines. (This is why speed is a very important thing for all naval ships.)
3) in enforcing a blockade on high seas away from land-based A2AD systems.
4) during war, as & when enemy A2AD systems are suppressed using means like cruise missiles etc, carriers can then incrementally close-in on enemy shores.

People say that carriers are not 'bang for the buck' assets and the money can be utilized better elsewhere.
This is actually true in case of small stagnant economies, but it is not true for potential economic superpowers like India.

India can afford to spend on aircraft carriers without compromising on A2AD requirements in the long term due to her sheer economic growth potential.

 

WolfPack86

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With China factor in play, Modi govt now open to Navy’s third aircraft carrier demand
New Delhi: With China flexing its muscles, the Narendra Modi government is now looking favourably at the Navy’s need for a third aircraft carrier as the “situation of peace” has changed, ThePrint has learnt.

Top government sources told ThePrint that while the current focus is on submarines, for which the government will soon set the ball rolling for six more conventional submarines under Project 75I, there is a change in the government’s position regarding a third aircraft carrier.

“The times have changed. Earlier it was time of peace and now it is not,” a top government source said, in what appeared to be a reference to the current tensions between India and China in Eastern Ladakh.

The Indian Navy operates the Russian-built INS Vikramaditya and a second indigenously-built carrier is in the final stages of construction.

But even though the Navy has been firm on its plan to have a second indigenous aircraft carrier, the government wasn’t so convinced until now.

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Bipin Rawat in February had said that the approval for a third carrier would take time as, according to him, the Navy needed submarines and not aircraft carriers as “anything on surface can be picked up by satellites and knocked off by missiles”.

Explaining the new thinking, government sources said there is no doubt that future operations and requirements have to be kept while planning.

“The role of India in the global scene is increasing,” a government source said. “For us to have a larger presence in the Indian Ocean Region and beyond where trade and commerce is increasing, a third aircraft carrier is important.”

Navy’s pitch for another aircraft carrier
The Navy has been pitching for a third aircraft carrier.

Just last week, Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh had emphatically come out in support of a third aircraft carrier.

Addressing the annual press conference, the Admiral said the Navy will formally move the proposal to the government for a third aircraft carrier after gathering technical information sought from various countries.

“As the Navy, we are absolutely clear of the utility of the carrier,” he said. “This is because air operations are integral to naval operations, and air power at sea is required since the Navy is all about reach and sustenance.

“If you are a nation that is aspirational and you want to become a $5 trillion economy shortly and you want to do well, you will have to go outwards and seek the world,” he said. “The nation does not want the Navy tethered to the shore. For that, aircraft carriers are absolutely necessary.”

Navy sources in February had told ThePrint that even if a decision is taken to have a third carrier now, it will come into action only by 2033 at the earliest.

They also said shore-based air operations were still limited by range, and this is where the aircraft carriers come into play.

They had said that External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar had defined the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) as including countries fringing the entire Indian Ocean, from the Strait of Hormuz to Reunion island, from East Africa to Australia, and from Lombok Strait to Malacca Strait.

This vast oceanic expanse, they said, was well beyond the capability of strike aircraft operating from the Indian mainland, which would barely cover even 20 per cent of this area and thus leave vast swathes of IOR unchallenged.

According to reports, China plans to have a six aircraft carriers by 2035 including nuclear powered ones.
.
 

Longewala

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I guess the EMALS systems technology isn't fully matured yet.
Thankfully, with a country that has built dozens of carriers in its history and probably spent more in EMALS R&D than India's entire R&D budget,
We are happy to give them the benefit of doubt and wait for them to spend years "maturing"

Whereas, for any weapon system designed in India with minimal research base or budget, if it has has any flaws,
And our military starts jumping up and down denigrating domestic products and cheering foreign maal.

That's the difference
 

Gandaberunda

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Thankfully, with a country that has built dozens of carriers in its history and probably spent more in EMALS R&D than India's entire R&D budget,
We are happy to give them the benefit of doubt and wait for them to spend years "maturing"

Whereas, for any weapon system designed in India with minimal research base or budget, if it has has any flaws,
And our military starts jumping up and down denigrating domestic products and cheering foreign maal.

That's the difference
The difference is army/IAF is infested with Dallals and the dallals hold prominent position to influence decision makers and kickbacks.
Eliminate these dallals by some percent we will progress whole together
 

Kumata

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What we need to counter the upcoming Chinese aircraft carriers is stealthy submarines . At the moment, they will need another 10 to 15 years to fully get themselves going.... Untill than I don't expect them to move Beyond SCS leaving a 10km long smoke trail.... 😀 😀

IMO, A Aircraft carrier is not a counter to air craft carrier... We need to invest in stealth submarines.. Govt priorities are right IMO. two carrier groups are enough for power projections... Third might be needed just to ensure we have 2 operational at all times but thats about it....

Remember we have andamans as well... A permanent carrier... 😀
 

Marliii

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Andaman will never be a unsinkable aircraft carrier as people claim.the main plus point of carriers are that they are on move always that is not the case of andaman they are static and as history has shown us static defences are just inviting the enemy to attack them.chinese satellites could map andamans entire airfields.take battle of midway for eg the IJN carriers would have captured midway if it wasn't for US carriers.the first japanese airstrikes hit the airfield in midway but wasn't that successfully then IJN changed their plan and tried to sink us carriers.it was joint effort from us aircraft from carriers and midway that sunk jap carriers.submarines also aren't stealth f22 that we believe them to be anti submarine warfare is now very mature but chinese anti submarine capability is quite bad.so we need all the carriers and submarines we can ASAP!
 

DivineLight

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I see different sentiments here. So our DPSUs and DRDO ithyadi doing great job. But armed forces somehow screwing them because they love foreign stuff.

Cool story.

p.s. you know at the end of the day, it will be armed forces who are risking their life. they need every advantage they can get.
 

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