INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[silentlurker]

Seriously does this forum not have moderators? I thought this was Vinshal thread, not Indian Naval strategy...

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

An interesting take on INS Vishal : https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/an-update-on-indias-aircraft-carrier-aspirations/

the commissioning times of shandong versus Vishal is something indian designers need to think about. We need to find out if shandong is the usual rush job by PLAN to just show off or it is a potent weapon, despite the rapid time of commissioning.

 

[johnq]

I have no problem with INS Vishal or more Indian Navy carriers, as long as they are CATOBAR carriers that operate Rafale or something better. The Mig-29K operating from STOBAR carrier is a maintenance headache, and doesn't carry enough of a payload when operating from a STOBAR carrier.

 

[johnq]

It's just that, due to Covid-19 and resulting economic setback, Indian Navy currently probably can't afford a CATOBAR carrier operating a full complement of Rafales. Because of budgetary constraints, the alternative is to spend the money in developing India's islands into airbases (unsinkable carriers) with SAMs, long range cruise/ballistic anti-ship missiles and more long range fighter-bomber aircraft like Rafale that can fend off PLA Navy in the Indian Ocean. I am sure PLA Navy is going to eventually target Andaman and Nicobar and other strategically important Indian islands.

 

[no smoking]

You got me!

 

[Trololo]

I have no problem with INS Vishal or more Indian Navy carriers, as long as they are CATOBAR carriers that operate Rafale or something better. The Mig-29K operating from STOBAR carrier is a maintenance headache, and doesn't carry enough of a payload when operating from a STOBAR carrier.

I heard IAF's BRD Ozhar will be roped in along with sufficient stock of spares to address maintenance issues. Also 1 strategy for the payload that I was told by a retired naviator is to take off with max weapons and min fuel load for a given mission configuration, and then quickly get refueled via a dedicated buddy refueler. This does limit the total jets you can launch though because a few are always reserved as buddy refuelers.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

You got me!

Your likes to messages ratio is the lowest on the forum (outlier that is really really low likes) for a significant message poster. Why is this? Are you a 50 cent troll?

 

[no smoking]

We have the largest permanent carrier the PLA Navy can never match. We have INS Andaman & Nicobar waiting to pour some serious lead on PLA carriers. If we can convert minicoy in Lakshadweep into another permanent combined command, then PLA Navy carriers will be toast wherever they go.

To certain extent, what you said is right.
On the other hand, these islands have one big weakness comparing to aircraft carriers: they DON'T MOVE.

People here always ignore the precondition of the scenario that PLAN comes to Indian Ocean to challenge: they need a military basis in South East Asian countries, otherwise it is just a suicide mission for them. However, once they got one (i.e Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia), the advantage brought by Andaman island will disappear.

So, the key between IN and PLAN is south east Asia, not those islands.

 

[johnq]

I heard IAF's BRD Ozhar will be roped in along with sufficient stock of spares to address maintenance issues. Also 1 strategy for the payload that I was told by a retired naviator is to take off with max weapons and min fuel load for a given mission configuration, and then quickly get refueled via a dedicated buddy refueler. This does limit the total jets you can launch though because a few are always reserved as buddy refuelers.

It's good that they are trying to resolve Mig-29k maintenance issues, but given its limitations I would not recommend another STOBAR carrier with Mig-29k: That includes the buddy refuelling, which as you said, limits the number of Mig-29k that can operate at one time.

Then, given the budget constraints, the next best thing is to build up several more island airfields into fortresses with more aircraft, SAMS and long range cruise/ballistic anti-ship missiles. On the Indian Ocean side we do have Lakshdweep, and perhaps some arrangement can also be worked out with Maldives. Further south is the US Navy at Diego Garcia, and we also have agreements with them. The judicious use of the 2 carriers we will have soon will also assist in this.
The most important thing right now is to build more airbases and naval bases in Andaman and Nicobar with more AWACS (capable of tracking LO aircraft at long ranges), in-flight refuellers, Rafales, long range SAMs (operating in concert with over the horizon radar networks and AWACS) and long-range antiship cruise/ballistic missiles to stop PLA Navy, as Andaman and Nicobar is China's next target.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

To certain extent, what you said is right.
On the other hand, these islands have one big weakness comparing to aircraft carriers: they DON'T MOVE.

People here always ignore the precondition of the scenario that PLAN comes to Indian Ocean to challenge: they need a military basis in South East Asian countries, otherwise it is just a suicide mission for them. However, once they got one (i.e Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia), the advantage brought by Andaman island will disappear.

So, the key between IN and PLAN is south east Asia, not those islands.

Cannot engage in a discussion with you until you answer the question: are you a 50 cent troll paid by the CCP for every post and you dont bother about content? I consider 50 cent trolls as the people with the lowest IQ on the planet.

Or, even worse than a 50 cent troll, are you a squirmy, slimy porki with no brains at all?

The likes-to-posts ratio clearly indicates a mongolian/nanking rape's bastard child (hans) or an afghan/turkic bastard child (porki) , but I'd like to confirm from your own mouth.

 

[johnq]

People love to list the advantages of an aircraft carrier, but forget about the biggest disadvantage: If it sinks, you not only lose its entire aircraft, missile and crew complement, but it's a massive hit on navy morale. Airbases and naval bases on islands on the other hand can be repaired and reused after a strike.

Given the limited budget and the strategic locations of Indian islands such as Andaman and Nicobar, building lots of well-defended airbases there with lots of aircraft (AWACS, fighter-bombers like Rafale, refueling aircraft), over the horizon sensors and long range anti-ship missiles (also with torpedo warheads for subs) guided by airborne network (UAVs, P-8, along with AEW/AWACS) and Indian Navy ships can stop the PLA Navy.

It will also be sufficient for sea lane denial in the Indian Ocean when working in concert with India's 2 (upcoming) aircraft carriers and other Indian Navy ships.

China knows how vulnerable it is because of Andaman and Nicobar, so it will be targeting it with PLA Navy. Better to prepare for it by turning these islands into fortresses now.

 

[johnq]

In relation to my previous post, this is what China has already been trying to do in the Indian Ocean:

China is developing an artificial island in Indian ocean to trap India

New Delhi: The time where the whole world is struggling with the corona epidemic. China is engaged in building an artificial island 684 km f..|News Track

english.newstracklive.com

China is developing an artificial island in Indian ocean to trap India

The time where the whole world is struggling with the corona epidemic. China is engaged in building an artificial island 684 km from India. China is presenting a strategic challenge directly to India by creating a new island in the Indian Ocean on the lines of South China Sea. This has been revealed recently through satellite photographs. These photos have been released by the open-source intelligence analyst Datresfa.
Former Maldives President Abdulla Yameen leased 16 islands of his country to Chinese companies during his rule in 2016. China is undertaking large scale construction work on these islands. According to experts, there is an attempt to surround India on such a large scale investment by China in these islands. China has trapped many countries in a debt trap, Hannes Christenson, director of the Nuclear Information Project of Sipri (CIPRI), an international organization tracking arms procurement, has tweeted that Maldives' Yamuni government in Maldives Was leased to China for four million dollars.
He said that now China is plotting to encircle India here under the belt and road initiative on the lines of South China Sea. China has embroiled many countries in the Indian Ocean in its debt trap.

Along with turning its own strategically located islands into fortresses, India should also work with Maldives to build an air/navy/missile base there. It would be better to spend India's limited resources on such strategically located air/naval bases than another STOBAR aircraft carrier with limited effectiveness.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

In relation to my previous post, this is what China has already been trying to do in the Indian Ocean:

China is developing an artificial island in Indian ocean to trap India

New Delhi: The time where the whole world is struggling with the corona epidemic. China is engaged in building an artificial island 684 km f..|News Track

english.newstracklive.com

China is developing an artificial island in Indian ocean to trap India

The time where the whole world is struggling with the corona epidemic. China is engaged in building an artificial island 684 km from India. China is presenting a strategic challenge directly to India by creating a new island in the Indian Ocean on the lines of South China Sea. This has been revealed recently through satellite photographs. These photos have been released by the open-source intelligence analyst Datresfa.
Former Maldives President Abdulla Yameen leased 16 islands of his country to Chinese companies during his rule in 2016. China is undertaking large scale construction work on these islands. According to experts, there is an attempt to surround India on such a large scale investment by China in these islands. China has trapped many countries in a debt trap, Hannes Christenson, director of the Nuclear Information Project of Sipri (CIPRI), an international organization tracking arms procurement, has tweeted that Maldives' Yamuni government in Maldives Was leased to China for four million dollars.
He said that now China is plotting to encircle India here under the belt and road initiative on the lines of South China Sea. China has embroiled many countries in the Indian Ocean in its debt trap.

Along with turning its own strategically located islands into fortresses, India should also work with Maldives to build an air/navy/missile base there. It would be better to spend India's limited resources on such strategically located air/naval bases than another STOBAR aircraft carrier with limited effectiveness.

Two words: Diego Garcia, enough to make the PLA Navy piss in their underwear (lovingly made by Pakshitstan slaves).

We do need to lease (or buy outright) an island from Maldives or Mauritius or one of the French islands, and setup a base there. Or, establish a great base in minicoy island in the Lakshadweep. But all this costs money which we really don't need to spend when Diego Garcia is there.

 

[johnq]

Two words: Diego Garcia, enough to make the PLA Navy piss in their underwear (lovingly made by Pakshitstan slaves).

We do need to lease (or buy outright) an island from Maldives or Mauritius or one of the French islands, and setup a base there. Or, establish a great base in minicoy island in the Lakshadweep. But all this costs money which we really don't need to spend when Diego Garcia is there.

I don't trust that the Biden administration/democrats will not neuter US response in case of PLA Navy attack on Andaman and Nicobar. China has leverage on Biden. Watch this and read the accompanying report:


China systematically targeted Hunter Biden with business deals involving the Chinese state, intelligence, and even China's military, the People's Liberation Army. This is not the Hunter Biden laptop story from the NY Post! This is from a report based on publicly available documents that media have refused to cover. How much did Joe Biden know about Hunter Biden's China deals? Economist and China expert Christopher Balding joins us on China Unscripted to discuss the report and its possible effects on US China relations and the US election 2020. Read the report for yourself!

https://www.baldingsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/KVBJHB.pdf

From America Uncovered: Hunter Biden’s Shady Deals: What Do They Mean for Joe Biden?
Hunter Biden’s Shady Deals: What Do They Mean for Joe Biden?
Republican Senators in the Senate have released a new report detailing some rather shady deals Joe Biden's Son Hunter Biden got up to when Joe Biden was Vice President. They include deals in Ukraine with the corrupt natural gas company Burisma and when Joe Biden got the Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin fired—which was part of the Trump impeachment inquiry, Hunter Biden and his connection to Russian billionaire Elena Baturina, Hunter Biden China relations that may have affected US China relations, and that's just the beginning. But the real question is, how will this affect the Joe Biden Campaign in the lead up to the 2020 US election? One thing is for sure—Donald Trump is probably very happy this report came out now. Trump, Biden, and Ukraine Explained https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmvLH... The China Deal for Joe Biden’s Son https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkfZu...


India should anyways build up several air/naval bases in Andaman and Nicobar and other islands with long range aircraft and SAMs and long range anti-ship missiles to counter PLA Navy.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

I don't trust that the Biden administration/democrats will not neuter US response in case of PLA Navy attack on Andaman and Nicobar. China has leverage on Biden. Watch this and read the accompanying report:


China systematically targeted Hunter Biden with business deals involving the Chinese state, intelligence, and even China's military, the People's Liberation Army. This is not the Hunter Biden laptop story from the NY Post! This is from a report based on publicly available documents that media have refused to cover. How much did Joe Biden know about Hunter Biden's China deals? Economist and China expert Christopher Balding joins us on China Unscripted to discuss the report and its possible effects on US China relations and the US election 2020. Read the report for yourself!

https://www.baldingsworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/KVBJHB.pdf

From America Uncovered: Hunter Biden’s Shady Deals: What Do They Mean for Joe Biden?

India should anyways build up Andaman and Nicobar and other islands with long range aircraft and SAMs and long range anti-ship missiles to counter PLA Navy.

The US can never be trusted whoever the president is. But the real difference these days is US politicians and governance systems have become corrupt as hell these days. The amount of corruption in Congress is huge and many senators keep getting reelected despite significant corruption cases. It is the new normal for them. They are reverting to how they were a few decades go - mafia, corruption etc as growth becomes scarce and most people are unable to even get a whiff of the 'American Dream'. We have to just calibrate our policies to deal with this new corrupt American system. Since we are equally or far more corrupt, lol, potentially offering Biden's or Kamala Harris' family some deals in India (like we promoted Trump Towers) to get some leverage would be a great starting point. Kamala Harris especially being of Indian descent could be bribed with some stuff like spectacular lands in a Himalayan state or ownership in an EV factory or tech company in India which can grow exponentially in value. The new US is all transactional and is all about who has the money to corrupt and drive change. Trump's family is extremely corrupt, criminal as well, and we dealt with that. US is becoming more and more like India - criminalized politics, hard to prosecute leadership, misuse of laws for political vendetta, etc. And bribing becoming the only way to get things done. We should be very comfortable with this. The only issue is: will China outspend us and the US will revert to becoming a 'friend' of China. In that case, yes, we can kiss Quad goodbye (it is really a diad, Japan and Australia have already shown weak interest in Quad by sending just 1 ship each to Ex. Malabar, and then signing onto RCEP and making no noise about Quad) and start developing our own permanent naval bases. Remember in ingternational politics, every country is for themselves. All the more reason to get to $5 trillion+ economy even if we have to beg, borrow, or steal (just like we did with nuke tech and space tech). And put all the socialists, anti nationalists obstructing our growth behind bars.

 

[samsaptaka]

Guys this is INS Vishal thread for god sake ! Not chinkie US strategy , us election thread ! Keep OT stuff out !

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Where are the Chinese trolls?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Third aircraft carrier absolutely necessary, air power at sea is required here and now: Navy Chief

PTI
Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Karambir Singh
Synopsis
The acquisition of a third carrier – India has the INS Vikramaditya in service and the INS Vikrant under construction – has been a sore point with the defence ministry citing a lack of funds and the Navy pushing the case to maintain an operational...

NEW DELHI: The Navy is clear that India requires a third aircraft carrier as its economy grows towards the $ 5 trillion goal and says that it will move a formal case to the government for an acquisition after gathering technical information.

The acquisition of a third carrier – India has the INS Vikramaditya in service and the INS Vikrant under construction – has been a sore point with the defence ministry citing a lack of funds and the Navy pushing the case to maintain an operational edge in the region.

Speaking on the issue, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Karambir Singh has said that air power at sea is a critical requirement and is required at an immediate basis.

“As the Navy we are absolutely clear of the utility of the carrier. Because air operations are integral to naval operations. Air power at sea is required here and now. The Navy is all about reach and sustenance,” the Navy Chief said at his annual press conference ahead of Navy Day.

Elaborating, the top officer said that a Navy with extended reach is critical for a nation that wants to grow economically. “If you are a nation that is aspiration and you want to become a 5 trillion economy shortly and you want to do well you will have to go outwards and seek the world. The navy does not want to be navy tethered to shore. For that aircraft carriers are absolutely necessary,” Admiral Singh said.

The Navy chief said that a series of request for information have been sent out to gather technical information, following which the force would move a case for acceptance of necessity – the first step in the acquisition process when the defence ministry gives a formal go ahead.

The Navy has also taken up a case for a multi role carrier based fighter jet and has been working with DRDO for an indigenous platform. “We are working with DRDO on the twin engine deck based fighter offered to us. A lot of lessons have been learnt from the LCA program and my hope is that the twin engine jet can enter service by the early 2030s,” he said.

Aircraft carriers have been a priority area for the Navy which has kept the construction of its indigenous INS Vikrant on track despite the Covid crisis. The ship is expected to start sea trials by early next year.

 

[shankyz]

Third aircraft carrier absolutely necessary, air power at sea is required here and now: Navy Chief

PTI
Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Karambir Singh
Synopsis
The acquisition of a third carrier – India has the INS Vikramaditya in service and the INS Vikrant under construction – has been a sore point with the defence ministry citing a lack of funds and the Navy pushing the case to maintain an operational...

2 aircraft carrier battle groups - 1 each for for Bay of Bengal and Arabian Sea is sufficient for IN for this decade.
Funds needed for more ASW ships , Minesweepers , Helos.
Remember we have 2 stationary ACs as well - Lakshadweep and Andaman & Nicobar islands.

 

[Marliii]

The biggest problem of island bases is they can be just avoided by the enemy. But we need to strengthen the defence of andaman. In midway us winning was mainly because of the land based bombers stationed in midway. That roughly made us par in aircraft with imperial japan. INS vishal is a necessity. It's the air forces whatever flying is ours mindset the problem