INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[IndianHawk]

*learn from the British* Good lord. Old Nelson himself spits on the Royal Navy of today.

Whatever is wrong with royal navy their carrier plan was solid and with QE + f35 they are times ahead of our own navy.

 

[IndianHawk]

Navy dismisses officer for sexual misconduct

The sacking of engineering officer Commodore Sukhjinder Singh has been approved by the defence ministry under Section 216 of the Navy Regulations Act. The controversy over his relations with a Russian woman erupted in early 2010.

www.indiatoday.in

.

This is the quality of naval officer dealing with vikramaditya deal with Russia. No wonder the things have gone south.

The whole deal was a shit show and navy is complicit in the mess.

They have made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Hangar bay of IAC-1/Vikrant
18 aircrafts, 8 MiG-29K and 10 helis.

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[NutCracker]

Navy dismisses officer for sexual misconduct

The sacking of engineering officer Commodore Sukhjinder Singh has been approved by the defence ministry under Section 216 of the Navy Regulations Act. The controversy over his relations with a Russian woman erupted in early 2010.

www.indiatoday.in

.

This is the quality of naval officer dealing with vikramaditya deal with Russia. No wonder the things have gone south.

The whole deal was a shit show and navy is complicit in the mess.

They have made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

That too with a woman that looks like David Coleman HEadly.

Know how Indian diplomats and spies were trapped by outsiders

New Delhi: In the past few decades, several top Indian officials have been accused of leaking sensitive information or falling into honey trap.Here is

www.indiatvnews.com

Also I remember watching some TV series/movie in which a Navy guy got honey trapped by Russian/Gori mem and committed suicide .

 

[Adm Kenobi]

Is this sarcasm. When will tedbf enter service. What date has CCS given ?? Enlighten us please.

And if vikramaditya won't serve for 40 years if navy willing to court marshal the idiots who certified it for that much life??

A little correction, I meant to write CAG*
First production variant of TEDBF is to roll out in 2031, after which it will join the service in a few months.

Vikramaditya was never going to serve 40 years, I remember reading an article where a senior navy officer mentioned the year '2040' for the retirement of Vikramaditya, and this was at the time of commissioning.
Another statement by the CNS himself-

“We need to be not just a strong and modern Navy, but also a future proof Navy”

—<strong>Admiral R. Hari Kumar</strong>, Chief of the Naval Staff speaks to <strong>Jayant Baranwal</strong>, Editor-in-Chief, <strong><em>SP’s Naval Forces</em></strong>, in an exclusive interaction on the occasion of the Indian Navy Day 2021

www.spsnavalforces.com

 

[NutCracker]

A little correction, I meant to write CAG*
First production variant of TEDBF is to roll out in 2031, after which it will join the service in a few months.

Vikramaditya was never going to serve 40 years, I remember reading an article where a senior navy officer mentioned the year '2040' for the retirement of Vikramaditya, and this was at the time of commissioning.
Another statement by the CNS himself-

“We need to be not just a strong and modern Navy, but also a future proof Navy”

—<strong>Admiral R. Hari Kumar</strong>, Chief of the Naval Staff speaks to <strong>Jayant Baranwal</strong>, Editor-in-Chief, <strong><em>SP’s Naval Forces</em></strong>, in an exclusive interaction on the occasion of the Indian Navy Day 2021

www.spsnavalforces.com

View attachment 169126
[/QUOTE

“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan, Admiral Superintendent of the Naval Ship Repair Yard (NSRY) in Kochi, told The Hindu .

“INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years”

www.thehindu.com

 

[NutCracker]

A little correction, I meant to write CAG*
First production variant of TEDBF is to roll out in 2031, after which it will join the service in a few months.

Vikramaditya was never going to serve 40 years, I remember reading an article where a senior navy officer mentioned the year '2040' for the retirement of Vikramaditya, and this was at the time of commissioning.
Another statement by the CNS himself-

“We need to be not just a strong and modern Navy, but also a future proof Navy”

—<strong>Admiral R. Hari Kumar</strong>, Chief of the Naval Staff speaks to <strong>Jayant Baranwal</strong>, Editor-in-Chief, <strong><em>SP’s Naval Forces</em></strong>, in an exclusive interaction on the occasion of the Indian Navy Day 2021

www.spsnavalforces.com

View attachment 169126

“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan, Admiral Superintendent of the Naval Ship Repair Yard (NSRY) in Kochi, told The Hindu .

“INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years”

www.thehindu.com

 

[Adm Kenobi]

“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan, Admiral Superintendent of the Naval Ship Repair Yard (NSRY) in Kochi, told The Hindu .

“INS Vikramaditya will serve Navy for 30 years”

www.thehindu.com

Difference in opinion,

It was also said that it won't require any major refit for 10 years, reality is often disappointing. The current stand is that it is to be retired by 2040.

 

[IndianHawk]

A little correction, I meant to write CAG*
First production variant of TEDBF is to roll out in 2031, after which it will join the service in a few months.

Vikramaditya was never going to serve 40 years, I remember reading an article where a senior navy officer mentioned the year '2040' for the retirement of Vikramaditya, and this was at the time of commissioning.
Another statement by the CNS himself-

“We need to be not just a strong and modern Navy, but also a future proof Navy”

—<strong>Admiral R. Hari Kumar</strong>, Chief of the Naval Staff speaks to <strong>Jayant Baranwal</strong>, Editor-in-Chief, <strong><em>SP’s Naval Forces</em></strong>, in an exclusive interaction on the occasion of the Indian Navy Day 2021

www.spsnavalforces.com

View attachment 169126

I too want tedbf to come faster but those are very optimistic timelines .

We are in end of 2022 already. Even if critical design review is completed by 2025 we will see first tech demo in 2027 only . And after 6-8 years of testing we will have it in service not before 2034 at the very least. Then again it will have to form a squadron develope tactics write a whole new operation manual for a brand new aircraft. Integrate anti ship missiles to it . This means it won't be combat ready befor 2035.

So we will need mig29k to soldier on atleast till then so that we don't loose operational capacity to actually fight in between.

After that mig29k can gradually go into reserve / shore based operations.

But here is a twist what if the next carrier we will get is a catobar?? Tedbf are only stobar as of now?? So rafale or f18 will have to either move to new carrier leaving vikrant empty for tedbf to fill or tedbf will have to have to have a catobar varient which will need more time all the while vikramaditya will have to soldier on with mig29k either way.

If issues with vikramaditya persist we might prolong it's life by reducing operational tempo. But it has to stay in service to fullfill three carrier mandate. ( One in refit , one in maintenance and one always operational) .

So even if just rest in Port for most time it can still be operational while vikrant and IAC-2 are in maintenance/ refit.

Admiral might have meant 2040s and not 2040 only. Because by 2040 it will be just 27 years in service which is even less then our previous second hand carriers .

 

[IndianHawk]

Here is what navy has to say about tedbf

There is a timeline that is there for the TEDBF. It will take about 5-7 years for its first flight and we need an interim aircraft. And hence the trials have been done and a report is being prepared,” Vice Admiral Ghormade said,

So from 2023 that puts first flight in 2028 at the earliest. And after that 6 years of testing 2034 for ioc .

 

[binayak95]

Navy dismisses officer for sexual misconduct

The sacking of engineering officer Commodore Sukhjinder Singh has been approved by the defence ministry under Section 216 of the Navy Regulations Act. The controversy over his relations with a Russian woman erupted in early 2010.

www.indiatoday.in

.

This is the quality of naval officer dealing with vikramaditya deal with Russia. No wonder the things have gone south.

The whole deal was a shit show and navy is complicit in the mess.

They have made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

Watch your goddamn tongue if you dont know the details of the case. It was a classic case of Russians laying the trap and then springing it.

 

[IndianHawk]

Watch your goddamn tongue if you dont know the details of the case. It was a classic case of Russians laying the trap and then springing it.

Why so emotional. Scandal is a fact deal with it. Ofcourse the Russians will do everything in their national interest why couldn't we repay the favor then??

 

[Akula]

I don't what were the designers of this ship were smoking. They designed the lift without thinking about future.

 

[Gessler]

Alright, lets take into consideration the fact that Vikramaditya is retired in 2035. What is stopping the Navy from ordering two IAC-2 class in the 2030s? Even if one of such carrier costs $7 Billion, two would cost $14 Billion. Spread over a build period of 8 years if built simultaneously (we got two drydocks capable of building that size in India), that amounts to $1.75 Billion per annum average. Average annual Naval Capex will be $15 Billion in the 2030s. Even if Naval capex is hard pressed, can't they earmark 11% of their capex for two IAC-2 class for 8 years in the 2030s particularly when degree of indigenization for IAC-2 will be higher than IAC-1 (due to LR-MFR, etc)?

That's what I used to think but the reality is that big ticket CAPEX spending is almost always a sore issue. We aren't able to conclusively sanction even 1 IAC-2, let alone 2.

Not only that, the scope of our ambition is also dropping down to size that befits our pockets. Gone are the dreams of a nuclear-powered ship, IN realized we can't afford it. They went to conventional and now latest info is that they are actually downsizing the ship from initially planned 65k tons.

All I can say is, stuff like OROP has eaten too much into defence spending, actual CAPEX growth YoY is not as impressive as Defence budget growth YoY (which itself is modest, almost meagre when taking inflation into account).

In short, don't expect CAPEX to be flowing like water. Especially when whatever is available will be split between several big-ticket programs simultaneously.

Let's not forget the Navy lost the SSN funding war with GOI. The CDS/MoD have convinced IN that the funding for SSN program will have to come from Navy's own capex, the PMO will not be funding it (as was the case with Arihant) as IN was hoping they would (hence SSNs were clubbed with SSBNs under same "strategic gamut" in IN terminology). All the long-term plans drawn up by the Navy in times past have yet to take the effect of this decision into account.

FCAS would be much heavier than Rafale, no? Don't think they'll have the engines made to drop fit into Rafale. And French can't maintain a large air force.

Once the core is mature, upscaling/downscaling is a straightforward matter. Not unlike the relationship between F404 and F414.

The INFRA JV engine itself would be an example of a downscaled FCAS core.

They'll likely start retiring Rafale in 2040 when FCAS comes online.

Nah, Raffys aren't going anywhere for a LONG time. FCAS is not meant to be Rafale replacement at all.

Heck, AdlA plans to keep Mirage-2000D till 2030+. Rafale will go on till 2060 minimum.

A non-LO plane without IWB can carry Anti-Ship missiles, while a stealth plane can't , hence 4.5+ gen birds won't go anywhere even post 2040

Only if the AShMs in question are obnoxiously outdated form factors like BrahMos (based on 80s Yakhont airframe).

Future AShMs will be considerably smaller.

But that's not a reason for not having IWBs or a stealthy airframe. Your loadout depends on the mission, any stealth jet can carry external weapons if need be. But a 'beast mode' loadout is not necessary for every single mission.

There are missions where you have to penetrate defended airspace for SEAD/DEAD or maintain low RCS for air superiority. You can't do it if you aren't stealthy.

F-35 can't carry Hypersonic missiles in future, can it ?

They're working on it as we speak. Externally carried ofcourse, but its there.

Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

New Lockheed Concept Shows Navy F-35C Armed With Hypersonic Cruise Missiles

The missile would be a follow-on version of a weapon Lockheed Martin is already developing for the Air Force.

www.thedrive.com

HAWC was already test launched last year. In all likelihood it'll be ready on F35 before we manage to put BrahMos-II on Su-30MKI.

Murica, as always, is way ahead.

 

[Vamsi]

Only if the AShMs in question are obnoxiously outdated form factors like BrahMos (based on 80s Yakhont airframe).

But in future ,we will have a Hypersonic missile be it a Brahmos-2 or indigenous one based on HSTDV ,both of which cannot fit inside a IWB

Future AShMs will be considerably smaller.

only subsonic missiles

There are missions where you have to penetrate defended airspace for SEAD/DEAD or maintain low RCS for air superiority. You can't do it if you aren't stealthy.

For Air superiority I agree,but, Why would you do a SEAD/DEAD mission,when you can sink an entire ship using an AShM(which should be carried externally)

 

[Gessler]

We have 45 mig29k . Navy says availability is 70% let's put it to 50% that means 23jets available at any time. Which is about what vikramaditya alone can carry.

So vikrant needs more jets. That's what we are buying now . 26 and more later with much better availablity rate compared to mig29k.

Neither carrier will be operating at max aircraft load. And any which way, only 1 carrier will actually be working at any given time (hopefully). The squadrons of a carrier aren't gonna sit idle for ~6 months when that ship is in refit. IN can't allow that much gap for carrier flying pilots between sorties lest skills are lost.

More than enough are available to fully outfit a single carrier which is what is actually needed even when there's war preparation.

Rusi carrier comparison with vikramaditya is not really valid since russia didn't really renewed much on their carrier which still leave black smoke while sailing while vikramaditya as I posted got renewed 70%.

You mean like this?

Besides, the rebuilt Vikky is still only 10 years old. Wait and see.

Kuznetsov was also fine & dandy when it was that new. The rot sets in not long afterward though. It's still only 30 years old, and we're all seeing what a pain in the a$$ its become for the RusNavy over the last decade and a half.

It cost us 2.5 billion USD in 2013 money which is equal to 3-4 billion USD in today's money given the inflation.

So are we going to throw away a 4 millions dollar asset ?? Or are we going to make it work by putting few more millions in repairing whenever required. Not the mention the money invested in training crew and technicians to operate vikky.

We'd have used it for 25 years by that time...not like we'd be throwing it away having gotten nothing out of it. But yes, there is a limit to how much is deemed to be worth it to keep the ship running in an ever-diminishing state beyond that point, all so you can hopefully get approx 2 months at sea per year.

It'd be one thing if the ship performed as it was intended to - but like any Russian-built carrier with steam boilers shows, that's not gonna be the case.

Remember we won't be as desperate as we were with the Viraat because Vikrant will be there.

29k wasn't a bad decision it was the only decision available. Russian or us didn't had any other carrier based jet. Su33 is even bigger disaster and USA was not so friendly back in 2004. By 2002 we were sanctioned .

True - but then again, it only shows that we knew the capability being delivered was going to be mediocre at best, and a nightmare to maintain at worst. Yet we still bought it for a reason that only God knows.

A P5 country with a tendency to get into global expeditionary wars like UK had no problem going a decade without a carrier...but Noooo that was too much to ask of IN. We HAD to have a carrier...so we could defend ourselves from our Western neighbour who at the time barely had a Navy to speak of, while the Chinese' ability to project sea-based airpower outside SCS is circumspect even today.

I really don't see why we couldn't have waited a while for IAC-1 to come (if not use that money to order a second IAC-1) with a Rafale air wing from the start. Relations with French were always good.

Either way you look at it, Vikky & Mig29K were a double whammy of corruption that f@cked the IN.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

What if India develop catamaran style aircraft carrier like China?

China developing 180,000-ton double-hull aircraft carrier

Qianzhan.com said in its report yesterday: China has to put an end to its old practice of following others countries' footsteps. Sources say that through meticulous engineering and mechanical analysis, China will conduct research and development of the first 180,000-ton :shocked: double hull...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Gessler]

We bought a new fighter for IAF in 2000s (MKI)
LCA MK1 in mid 10s
Rafale in 2020
LCA MK2 is supposed to be inducted in late 20s
AMCA in 2030s.

IAF is different. Aircraft are their only big ticket item and Air the only domain to think of.

IN on the other hand has 3 different domains - Air, surface & subsurface, each of which requires large, capital-intensive investments to develop capabilities in. For Navy, aircraft, ships, submarines all are a major drain on capex.

So yes their spending will be a lot tighter.

Difference between IAF's and IN's modernisation budget has come down to just 6-7k cr from 20-25k just a few years ago, it will likely match it in the 30s and surpass in the 40s. IN can definitely afford TEDBF in the early-mid 30s (when it will be ready) & another in the mid-late 40s. New generation technologies are to be developed for AMCA MK1 & 2, advancement will be made in the same field as a decade passes.by, a NG naval combat aircraft can get it in the mid-late 40s. I have already stated why N AMCA won't have much of it's VLO capability when fulfilling the basic requirement of IN, a new aircraft after TEDBF is necessary & should be pursued. Both can work in tandem on our future carriers.

Read reply to @Okabe Rintarou above.

I think we (inclusive of IN, MoD) are severely underestimating the costs of developing a new dedicated naval fighter.

In today's world there's only 1 country that is capable of doing so: Murica

Even then its only possible because they have 10 carriers and need 700-800 jets of a type.

Absolutely no one else is capable of such an undertaking. Rest of the carrier navies either use naval versions of Air Force jets, or plan it so both Navy & air force use the same jet.

Russia - Su-33, navalized Flanker
China - J-15, navalized Flanker
France - Rafale-M, Air Force version was actually developed from naval variant not other way around
UK - F-35B fleet shared with Royal air force

Only China aims to follow in US footsteps with J-35 (which is actually still a navalized version of J-31 on which they still hope to gain export sales). But that's only after they decided to have 6 carriers.

It's just common sense that developing a brand new airframe, especially a naval one, is a humongous undertaking and somehow everyone seems to have lost perspective of how difficult a fighter program really is and how much it costs.

what fighters? MiG-29K/KUB? or the 26 MRCBF? One of them won't have any life left and the other won't be in sufficient numbers, Navy will also need shore based fighters and fighters for IAC-2 at that time, an equilibrium can be reached with MRCBF stationed at the naval air station and TEDBF on the deck of IAC-1 & 2 (or whatever comes next) which can then be accompanied by a new generation fighter in mid-late 40s.

MRCBF.

Once a new platform has been inducted, additional orders are almost guaranteed in the event of further requirements. Either new builds if available, if not then second-hands. Both Rafale-M and SH have very long-lasting airframes so a refurbished/zero-lifed airframe is nothing to scoff at.

It will be larger at the same time, the capacity will be of making >4 nuclear powered sub simultaneously (including S5), IN only has to pay for 6 SSN (~1.2L cr), that amount is likely to be paid in full by mid 30s (the shipyard has to be allocated the funds for last subs some years b4 they are delivered, same happened with P-75), Navy believes it can build the SSN & IAC-2 simultaneously and the fact that navy will have sufficient funds for IAC-2 has been reiterated by Admiral Sunil Lamba & KB Singh. Most of the expenditure happens when the ship is at the stage of 40-65% physical completion, that will be between early-mid 30s, Navy will have sufficient funds to fund a new project and purchase TEDBF for the rest of the decade and the 40s. The expenditure and the budget will both grow, nothing is stagnating here. The procurement funds for surface & sub surface combatants will increase at the same rate.

It's not that easy - again, read reply to Okabe above regarding expenditure.

Even today MDL's capacity of warship construction is several orders of magnitude more than what they are actually building. Having capacity is one thing, actually having the moolah to make use of it is another.

Already said by the navy that this is not going to be the case, the aircraft operating from the flight deck of IAC-1 will be TEDBF, MRCBF jets can be deployed for other roles or sold off to some friendly country in the 40s, when TEDBF is a proven platform and a NG aircraft is certain.

Hence the need to fund development of a new generation naval combat aircraft & get it by mid-late 40s. TEDBF can start phasing out in the mid 60s (when initial frames would be ~30 yrs old).

We'll see.

 

[Gessler]

But in future ,we will have a Hypersonic missile be it a Brahmos-2 or indigenous one based on HSTDV ,both of which cannot fit inside a IWB

Then carry them externally as and when needed as F-35 does with HAWC.

only subsonic missiles

Supersonic too (FC/ASW is F35 IWB-capable).

For Air superiority I agree,but, Why would you do a SEAD/DEAD mission,when you can sink an entire ship using an AShM(which should be carried externally)

Cuz attacking ships isn't the only job of a carrier-based aircraft.

They're also meant to project airpower onto enemy shores/coastal targets.