INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

abingdonboy

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Their availability rate is up to 70% after spares were secured from Russia.

How is it possible to be of airframe is falling apart as you say??

Who has written off airframe??
It was reported a while back (and buried thereafter) that a number of 29Ks had their spines snapped (immediate airframe writeoff) after arrested landings

This is in addition to the early engine issues (single engine flameouts) that the Russians and OEM failed to address for years meaning the Vikky and air wing were not allowed to be outside of range for a recovery to a land base. This is the stuff that should’ve been addressed during development and certification, that it was happening after induction and deployment means there’s a lot wrong with that project
 

abingdonboy

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Whatever is wrong with royal navy their carrier plan was solid and with QE + f35 they are times ahead of our own navy.
I wouldn’t say that at all. They made many design changes post-keep laying and there was plenty of drama along the way. For a few months the decision has been made to convert the entire F-35 order to F-35C (cheaper and more capable variant ) and to redesign the QE class for CATOBAR with EMALS, when the costs to do so were presented to the government (who had initially proposed this as part of the 2010 SPDR to as a cost saving measure) they decided to go back to the original proposal.

the 2010 SPDR had also concluded that the second ship (PoW) would be mothballed on completion and potentially sold off (later this was dropped)

the only thing they got right was the basic design (huge lifts and hangers that gives them immense dynamism to operate everything from F-35s to apaches and Chinooks without their blades folding- the IN gave this role to the Russians who promptly designed the IAC-1’s aviation complex around the 29K and created this entire mess) and the decision to order 2
 

Javelin_Sam

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It was reported a while back (and buried thereafter) that a number of 29Ks had their spines snapped (immediate airframe writeoff) after arrested landings

This is in addition to the early engine issues (single engine flameouts) that the Russians and OEM failed to address for years meaning the Vikky and air wing were not allowed to be outside of range for a recovery to a land base. This is the stuff that should’ve been addressed during development and certification, that it was happening after induction and deployment means there’s a lot wrong with that project
What was wrong with that project is that at the time Navy had no alternative options for MiG 29k and Vikky. Vikrant will only come alive for carrier ops by 2023. What would Navy had done if they hadn't got the Vikky and waited for 2 Vikrants to be built? The entire carrier air wing would've been non existent for years. Multiple batches of Naval aviators would only have Goa airport and the shore based test bed to horn their skills without any exposure to operate from ships at sea. Shore based ramp is not an alternative for a carrier. It's just a make shift step for testing purpose before going into a carrier. Landing and take-off from a deck in open sea is completely another ball game. Navy went with Vikky fully knowing it will have issues. They at least wanted Vikky as training carrier.
 

SKC

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What if India develop catamaran style aircraft carrier like China?


What if India develops Intergalactic carrier with dual warp engines with laser canons!
 
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Okabe Rintarou

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That's what I used to think but the reality is that big ticket CAPEX spending is almost always a sore issue. We aren't able to conclusively sanction even 1 IAC-2, let alone 2.

Not only that, the scope of our ambition is also dropping down to size that befits our pockets. Gone are the dreams of a nuclear-powered ship, IN realized we can't afford it. They went to conventional and now latest info is that they are actually downsizing the ship from initially planned 65k tons.

All I can say is, stuff like OROP has eaten too much into defence spending, actual CAPEX growth YoY is not as impressive as Defence budget growth YoY (which itself is modest, almost meagre when taking inflation into account).

In short, don't expect CAPEX to be flowing like water. Especially when whatever is available will be split between several big-ticket programs simultaneously.
I am not expecting CAPEX to "flow like water". I am expecting it to grow in concert with India's GDP. Which has been the case till now. Take the previous decade, for example between 2011-12 and 2021-22, Defence CAPEX has grown at an average rate of 7%. Similar to the rate at which India's GDP has grown.

Note, I am talking about CAPEX, not pensions, revenue, etc. Even if you take them, between 2019-20 and 2020-21, pensions budget dropped by 1% while CAPEX grew by 10%.

Navy is downsizing IAC-2 from 65,000 tons because instead of ordering an IAC-1 this decade and then IAC-2 next decade, they are ordering the IAC-2 itself in this decade. This decade, they are running short of funds for a big carrier.

Nuclear IAC-2 is not being considered because of technological issues outlined by BARC, not because of lack of funds.

Only problem I see is the relative share of Navy in the total Defence CAPEX, especially because Army is looking to increase its share in the Defence CAPEX as it really is short of funds. If the Navy's capex % holds at its current level, my calculations will be in the ballpark. Therefore I disagree with your assessment. Although I will concede that the scenario you mention could come to pass if the Army is allowed to poach the Navy's share of Defence CAPEX.

Let's not forget the Navy lost the SSN funding war with GOI. The CDS/MoD have convinced IN that the funding for SSN program will have to come from Navy's own capex, the PMO will not be funding it (as was the case with Arihant) as IN was hoping they would (hence SSNs were clubbed with SSBNs under same "strategic gamut" in IN terminology). All the long-term plans drawn up by the Navy in times past have yet to take the effect of this decision into account.
SSN is not an NCA asset. I don't understand why anybody would expect PMO to pay for it. Strategic Gamut is just Navy trying to pull a fast one. We have bastion strategy w.r.t. our SSBNs. Why would our precious few SSNs pull security for an SSBN in peacetime? SSN are a naval intelligence platform vital in peacetime. Maybe in wartime, they'd be deployed to pull security for the SSBN. But that doesn't mean they should be put under PMO. Or tomorrow, you'll have Army and Air Force demanding funds from PMO for all SAM systems deployed for security of ground and air based NCA assets.
Will SSN be under Strategic Forces Command? No. It will be a fleet asset. So no point asking PMO to fund it.




Once the core is mature, upscaling/downscaling is a straightforward matter. Not unlike the relationship between F404 and F414.
The INFRA JV engine itself would be an example of a downscaled FCAS core.
Agree with your point, but F-414 is not "upscaled" version of F-404, rather its an "upgraded" version with same dimensions and stages, but newer materials.

Nah, Raffys aren't going anywhere for a LONG time. FCAS is not meant to be Rafale replacement at all.

Heck, AdlA plans to keep Mirage-2000D till 2030+. Rafale will go on till 2060 minimum.
OK. But did Mirage 2000D get an engine upgrade using M88 materials or core?


Only if the AShMs in question are obnoxiously outdated form factors like BrahMos (based on 80s Yakhont airframe).

Future AShMs will be considerably smaller.

But that's not a reason for not having IWBs or a stealthy airframe. Your loadout depends on the mission, any stealth jet can carry external weapons if need be. But a 'beast mode' loadout is not necessary for every single mission.

There are missions where you have to penetrate defended airspace for SEAD/DEAD or maintain low RCS for air superiority. You can't do it if you aren't stealthy.
Primary use of India's carrier forces would be Naval Strike. Ground strike along Pakistani coastline can be supported by AMCA flying from AFS Bhuj. We aren't planning to strike Chinese coastline. And for naval strike, you need beast mode on your fighter anyhow. So TEDBF seems like a healthy compromise to me. Only potential downside I see is PLAN fielding J-35 from carrier. Only answer to such a situation is to rely on stealthy carrier-launched wingmen flying ahead of TEDBF to locate J-35 in advance. Not a perfect solution though. We'd be at a disadvantage there.

I think our disagreement on this stems from the issue that you consider TEDBF to arrive much delayed, not in 2031. While I expect TEDBF to make good on its current schedule whereas I expect any attempt at an N-AMCA to lead to no indigenous carrier fighter till at least 2040. Which is why TEDBF seems like a fine choice to me. And to the Navy as well.

They're working on it as we speak. Externally carried ofcourse, but its there.



HAWC was already test launched last year. In all likelihood it'll be ready on F35 before we manage to put BrahMos-II on Su-30MKI.

Murica, as always, is way ahead.
He was pointing to the fact that Naval Hypersonic Strike Missiles won't be fitting into F-35 IWBs anytime soon. Probably not within next two decades.
 

IndianHawk

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@Gessler @abingdonboy and others
Here I have some documents which call for replacing russian origin gear on both mig29k and vikramaditya to indian replacement.

These are high end components and tot is not available from Russia.

Obviously a very Costly undertaking. Also timelines for which mig29k parts will be required is mentioned as 30 years in the documents. Obviously since the date of such equipment is supplied ( I guess).

Boiler parts are to be replaced too for vikramaditya.

All this planning and effort mean only one thing that we are going to stick with both mig29k and vikramaditya for their full potential life.

Others can disagree. I have made my point. This is last from me on this topic .
 

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omaebakabaka

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@Gessler @abingdonboy and others
Here I have some documents which call for replacing russian origin gear on both mig29k and vikramaditya to indian replacement.

These are high end components and tot is not available from Russia.

Obviously a very Costly undertaking. Also timelines for which mig29k parts will be required is mentioned as 30 years in the documents. Obviously since the date of such equipment is supplied ( I guess).

Boiler parts are to be replaced too for vikramaditya.

All this planning and effort mean only one thing that we are going to stick with both mig29k and vikramaditya for their full potential life.

Others can disagree. I have made my point. This is last from me on this topic .
There is no choice whether they like it or not and vikky will stay till 2040s, at this rate debating over 1 or two major ships over 2 decades will cause us to lose the projection power even more relatively speaking in modern threat environment. Russians allocated 700b back in 2009 till 2020 to rearm their forces and where is our plan? Did anyone see anything like that or hear it from the likes of Modi or Rajnath or Taayi....arguing about capex in the amount of peanuts for a country that spending even 5% of GDP is not enough for next 3 decades to position itself is a losing argument regardless of which side you are on.....

Navy has turned into IAF with its 50 year old planes and its more disastrous than IAF as ships take lot more time to build. Russian navy to this day has not recovered but PLN exponentially grew with proper investment.
 

Indx TechStyle

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Since we don't have the kind of CAPEX budget to compete with US and China while our strategic realities are right now closer to France, Japan and UK than US & China, putting high hopes is going to depress members very hard.

We will see in next 15 years that India's relative national power will remain same as today that is similar to second tier swinger than a first tier behemoth. These ambitions will "start" materialisation somewhere in mid 30s. Added our procedures we aren't going to add 24 submarines, 15 nuclear subs or an extra carrier at least for next 15-20 years. We are a second tier force and will remain till next 25-30 years in all aspects of aerial, ground, naval warfares and related technologies even if Indian economy closes near 20 trillions before that time period.

Those who believe otherwise are going to be grossly blackpilled soon.;) China is going to be a US/USSR like force, US is declining and we will be left at no. 2 being sanctioned and screwed royally.
 

omaebakabaka

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Since we don't have the kind of CAPEX budget to compete with US and China while our strategic realities are right now closer to France, Japan and UK than US & China, putting high hopes is going to depress members very hard.

We will see in next 15 years that India's relative national power will remain same as today that is similar to second tier swinger than a first tier behemoth. These ambitions will "start" materialisation somewhere in mid 30s. Added our procedures we aren't going to add 24 submarines, 15 nuclear subs or an extra carrier at least for next 15-20 years. We are a second tier force and will remain till next 25-30 years in all aspects of aerial, ground, naval warfares and related technologies even if Indian economy closes near 20 trillions before that time period.

Those who believe otherwise are going to be grossly blackpilled soon.;) China is going to be a US/USSR like force, US is declining and we will be left at no. 2 being sanctioned and screwed royally.
I think we will do well in strategic side with ssbn's and possible ssn's and continued localization of armaments but I repeat once again, IN has no focus and did not project what kind of force they really want to be in the coming decades where big power fights have already started at a good pace.....they neither focus on destroyers nor carriers nor both in numbers (these are the only power projection carriers for any navy) and so far its grade D for GOI and IN.

Creating a bigger lift is not rocket science for IAC-1 follow up....IAC-2 is 2 decades no matter how you look at it. Those that think this way is not fit to govern nor command an army. Long peace is never a good thing, look at how entire US NAvy or Nato has turned into after cold war, India needs to be on edge and go for few wars and create a culture to give the military science a kick in the nuts and get that funding going on.....its about time for that catalyst. No change will come when you are not preparing for war.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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Well remember when we trying to get the Aircraft carrier and the only offer is from Russians which is Vikramadithya and for carrier selection we have only two options SU-33 or MIG 29K. At least IN took a sensible decision with Mig 29k even it has its own share of problem. The SU 33 is a simple junk.
 

IndianHawk

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Since we don't have the kind of CAPEX budget to compete with US and China while our strategic realities are right now closer to France, Japan and UK than US & China, putting high hopes is going to depress members very hard.

We will see in next 15 years that India's relative national power will remain same as today that is similar to second tier swinger than a first tier behemoth. These ambitions will "start" materialisation somewhere in mid 30s. Added our procedures we aren't going to add 24 submarines, 15 nuclear subs or an extra carrier at least for next 15-20 years. We are a second tier force and will remain till next 25-30 years in all aspects of aerial, ground, naval warfares and related technologies even if Indian economy closes near 20 trillions before that time period.

Those who believe otherwise are going to be grossly blackpilled soon.;) China is going to be a US/USSR like force, US is declining and we will be left at no. 2 being sanctioned and screwed royally.
While we can't match chinese numbers we have some solid build up . Anyway our objective is to keep china out of our backyard and not to complete with them globally ( leave that to usa + nato ).

By 2040 if we could get 6 SSN + 18 ssk + 2 carriers + 100 naval jets + 12-15 destroyers and 25-30 frigates + 40 Corvettes that shall be a force capable enough to sink anything in IOR when worked with shore based assets.

I think we can get there with current and projected budget levels easily.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Since we don't have the kind of CAPEX budget to compete with US and China while our strategic realities are right now closer to France, Japan and UK than US & China, putting high hopes is going to depress members very hard.

We will see in next 15 years that India's relative national power will remain same as today that is similar to second tier swinger than a first tier behemoth. These ambitions will "start" materialisation somewhere in mid 30s. Added our procedures we aren't going to add 24 submarines, 15 nuclear subs or an extra carrier at least for next 15-20 years. We are a second tier force and will remain till next 25-30 years in all aspects of aerial, ground, naval warfares and related technologies even if Indian economy closes near 20 trillions before that time period.

Those who believe otherwise are going to be grossly blackpilled soon.;) China is going to be a US/USSR like force, US is declining and we will be left at no. 2 being sanctioned and screwed royally.
Its closer to France, Japan and UK right now. Even by 2030 alone, we'll be spending twice as much as these countries. We won't reach US and China in defence spending within next two decades. That much is true. But we won't remain France and UK tier till 2040. By then our naval fleet will be the third largest, overtaking JMSDF and Russian Navy. We will be catching up in technologies, but not in scale of deployment, when compared to USA and PRC. We will not have more than 1000 fighters till after 2040, when PRC and USA will be hitting 3000. We will not have multiple supercarriers and our submarine fleet will be half to a third the size of US and PRC submarine fleets by 2040. Our Army won't be fully modernized by 2040.

But even then we will have (compared to USA and PRC) at least 1/3rd the military heft in Air and Naval forces and a comparable Army by 2040. We won't be any 2nd tier swinger power. Our heft alone will outweigh what other allies of USA can bring to the table. We won't be 1st tier behemoth either. We'll be somewhere in the middle.
 

omaebakabaka

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18 ssk + 2 carriers + 100 naval jets + 12-15 destroyers and 25-30 frigates + 40 Corvettes
I will bet my money that this is not going to happen considering old ones will come out of active fleet and the lack of constructing any class in rapid numbers.....we need these by 2030 ideally but as always we are decades late. GOI has given #1 priority to armaments like missiles across the spectrum to deter bigger opponents and rest all they realized is a slow pace and they went for localization over getting numbers at a faster pace....kinda hedging. Is there any other way to explain the lack of urgency?
 
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IndianHawk

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Its closer to France, Japan and UK right now. Even by 2030 alone, we'll be spending twice as much as these countries. We won't reach US and China in defence spending within next two decades. That much is true. But we won't remain France and UK tier till 2040. By then our naval fleet will be the third largest, overtaking JMSDF and Russian Navy. We will be catching up in technologies, but not in scale of deployment, when compared to USA and PRC. We will not have more than 1000 fighters till after 2040, when PRC and USA will be hitting 3000. We will not have multiple supercarriers and our submarine fleet will be half to a third the size of US and PRC submarine fleets by 2040. Our Army won't be fully modernized by 2040.

But even then we will have (compared to USA and PRC) at least 1/3rd the military heft in Air and Naval forces and a comparable Army by 2040. We won't be any 2nd tier swinger power. Our heft alone will outweigh what other allies of USA can bring to the table. We won't be 1st tier behemoth either. We'll be somewhere in the middle.
Besides while chinese are increasing numbers fast their technology remains quite behind that of even russia not to mention uk and France and forget about usa.

Entire chinese airforce as of now ( all 3000 jets ( including transportation) relies on old Soviet era engine and their chinese derivatives which means their availability rates are dismal and maintenance takes too much time and money . Their SSN are too noisy and ssk a generation behind western technology.

And this will remain a drag upon china . And will take decades to fix those.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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I will bet my money that this is not going to happen considering old ones will come out of active fleet and the lack of constructing any class in rapid numbers.....we need these by 2030 ideally but as always we are decades late.
NG vessels will likely be mass produced in flights like the Chinese and Americans do their destroyers because most of the components will be Indian. We are already seeing that trend with Talwar and P-17A class. 2030s, with a budget of $15B in a year, the fleet can grow rapidly, even if NGD cost $2 Billion apiece.
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SSKs depends on P-76, but after it arrives, subsequent SSK flights/classes won't depend on some foreign TOT and thus will only be limited by funds and shipyard capacity, the former of which will be plenty.
,
Retirements aren't that many. Apart from 3 Brahmaputra class, all other capital warships were built post-2000, so they will not retire till 2040.
 
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IndianHawk

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I will bet my money that this is not going to happen considering old ones will come out of active fleet and the lack of constructing any class in rapid numbers.....we need these by 2030 ideally but as always we are decades late.
By 2040 it should happen quite comfortably.

If 6 p18 are order by even 2030 and 3 old Delhi class are retired we will still have 13 destroyers.

We already have 20+ frigates ( 11 in construction already) with repeat of p17 and ngf we shall be atleast at 25 + frigate even with retirement of old.

Similarly 16 asw Corvettes are on order and 6 ngmv and 8 NGC are planned . So that's 30 new Corvettes and 10+ older so it should be approx 40 Corvettes.

Submarine wise 6 scorpion are here and 6 SSN are in pipeline. Even if we build just 6 more this decade and 6 more next decade we shall have 18 ssk +6 SSN. Although I suspect after P75I this decade we will be building 12 ssk next decade given then jumo in budget by 2030s.

2 carriers are given. I believe even if vikky is converted into training ship by 2040s we will have another carrier by then.

So we are pretty good.

Might add 4 lhd too in the mix by then.
 

omaebakabaka

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Besides while chinese are increasing numbers fast their technology remains quite behind that of even russia not to mention uk and France and forget about usa.

Entire chinese airforce as of now ( all 3000 jets ( including transportation) relies on old Soviet era engine and their chinese derivatives which means their availability rates are dismal and maintenance takes too much time and money . Their SSN are too noisy and ssk a generation behind western technology.

And this will remain a drag upon china . And will take decades to fix those.
I call this BS conclusion and you should stop spweing this nonsense, they produce shit ton of ships, space station in orbit and high speed rails and run data centers to the likes of google and facebook and look at the open source contributions. I don't know why most just ridicule other countries while ground reality is we are no where near in any of those. They still lack in engines but rest they are good enough to take on major powers, what they lack is fighting experience which is most important. Coming with martial arts background, your belt means shit when you have no mental ability to get into a real fight.
 

omaebakabaka

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NG vessels will likely be mass produced in flights like the Chinese and Americans do their destroyers because most. We are already seeing that trend with Talwar and P-17A class. 2030s, with a budget of $15B in a year, the fleet can grow rapidly, even if NGD cost $2 Billion apiece.
.
SSKs depends on P-76, but after it arrives, subsequent SSK flights/classes won't depend on some foreign TOT and thus will only be limited by funds and shipyard capacity, the latter of which will be plenty.
,
Retirements aren't that many. Apart from 3 Brahmaputra class, all other capital warships were built post-2000, so they will not retire till 2040.
I hope your optimism comes true, but there is simply no evidence that even most obvious things will happen . My point being IAC-1 follow up (if it does not happen), I really hope NGD serial production takes place like Chinese. Decade delay means opponents getting an extra decade and with an opponent like China its a great loss and hard to recover(already) with both tech and their numbers moving forward and ahead of us.
 

IndianHawk

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I call this BS conclusion and you should stop spweing this nonsense, they produce shit ton of ships, space station in orbit and high speed rails and run data centers to the likes of google and facebook and look at the open source contributions. I don't know why most just ridicule other countries while ground reality is we are no where near in any of those. They still lack in engines but rest they are good enough to take on major powers, what they lack is fighting experience which is most important. Coming with martial arts background, your belt means shit when you have no mental ability to get into a real fight.
Calling it bullshit doesn't change the reality. It just shows you are unaware of the sheer gap in military technology that exists among china and west .
 

omaebakabaka

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By 2040 it should happen quite comfortably.

If 6 p18 are order by even 2030 and 3 old Delhi class are retired we will still have 13 destroyers.

We already have 20+ frigates ( 11 in construction already) with repeat of p17 and ngf we shall be atleast at 25 + frigate even with retirement of old.

Similarly 16 asw Corvettes are on order and 6 ngmv and 8 NGC are planned . So that's 30 new Corvettes and 10+ older so it should be approx 40 Corvettes.

Submarine wise 6 scorpion are here and 6 SSN are in pipeline. Even if we build just 6 more this decade and 6 more next decade we shall have 18 ssk +6 SSN. Although I suspect after P75I this decade we will be building 12 ssk next decade given then jumo in budget by 2030s.

2 carriers are given. I believe even if vikky is converted into training ship by 2040s we will have another carrier by then.

So we are pretty good.

Might add 4 lhd too in the mix by then.
Bhai, there are lot of "ifs", you can do predictions reasonably only if you have good data sample, what is the average keel laying to commision time of a destroyer and how many we lay down at one time? By the time of 2040's some of our ships are 30 years old already.....reason why getting a class in rapid numbers is the key to take the pressure to opponent and giving us a breather to invest in next gen tech not to talk about economies of scale and predictability in supply chain. All successful countries do this across the board from farming to space. Our numbers are determined by the opponent next door, you can not fight them if we have 12 destryers when they have 5 times that.
 

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