INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[Crusader53]

Engine is made in HAL facility, Avonics are supplied by Israeli , French & HAL, EW suit is Israeli and Indian...
Thats why we called it MKI..

If any country who is 98% supportive in joint collaboration is Russia and second is Israel..

So, why isn't Russia providing many of the Avionics for the MKI. Instead of French, Isreal, etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

So, why isn't Russia providing many of the Avionics for the MKI. Instead of French, Isreal, etc.

Coz it was better option during those days!
Mix avionics on MKIS were superior to Russian ones..

But now days after watching SU-35BM updates, We decided to give a contract to Russians for systems like and BrahMos supersonic missiles also plans to integrate the nuclear-capable Nirbhay missile These features include internal weapons carriage and radar absorbent material, Active Phased Array Radar, and enhancement of situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned transmit/receive arrays on the aircraft's wings and pumping up the defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system and a missile approach warning system etc..

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100530/159217594.html

 

[Crusader53]

Well i would say FGFA have better Payload capacity..
F-35> 44,400 lb (20,100 kg)
FGFA> 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)

I think you are confusing your numbers! You really expect me to believe the PAK-FA can lift 57,320 lbs of Weapons!

The F-35 will have a much larger selection of PGM's than the PAK-FA will even hope to have........Regardless, its not the total but the useful load that matters.

Better Range..
F-35> (2,220 km)
FGFA> (5,500 km)

I very much doubt the PAK-FA or the FGFA (with less fuel) has twice the range. Doesn't sound to reliable source to me...........BTW Does the F-15 have twice the range of a F-16. See my point???

Better Thrust.
FGFA> Powerplant: 2× New unnamed engine by NPO Saturn and FNPTS MMPP Salyut of 175 kN each
F-35> 1× Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan 43,000 lbf (191 kN)

The PAK-FA is much larger and heavier. With a smaller percentage of composites in the overall Design. So, it needs two engines to make up for it. Plus, engine for engine it make much less power.

It's worth noting that much higher performing P & W F135's are said to be in the works. With thrust rating from 48,000 to an astonhing 56,000 lbs! So, in all likely hood my time Russia fields the New Engines on the PAK-FA. The US will counter with even high output engines for the F-35. Including the GE F136.

Hardpoints
F-35> 6× external pylons on wings with a capacity of 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) and 2 × internal bays with 2 pylons each
FGFA> 16 total, 8 internal, 8 on wings.


Would you care to provide a source.............BTW The F-35C can carry 20,085 lbs (9110 kg). Interesting that you took the lessor figure??? Nonetheless, the F-35 will have a vastly larger selection of Weapons to draw from. Which, provides much more accuracy and require fewer to destroy the target.

Beside all these specifications, We saw PAK-FA only one prototype, FGFA is not ready untill PAK-FA is ready!
Also their is no reports of PAK-FA AESA radar so you cannot compare anything, And most probably Avionics on FGFA will be supplied by HAL, Israel & French..

You can't have it both ways. On one hand you make all of these claims about the PAK-FA Performance. Yet, when I provide something concrete like the US Experience with Stealth and AESA Radars. I can't compare them???

BTW Israel and France have not as of yet produced a better AESA Radar than the US. Remember, we have several excellent AESA Radars in Service as we speak. Including the APG-63 (V3), RACR, APG-77, APG-79, and soon APG-81. Also, I would mention that the APG-81 is only one part of a total package. I suggest you do some research on the F-35's Avionics. Especially, EO-DAS which will be light years of anything projected by Russia.[/I]

 

[Crusader53]

you are a yankee , nobady can convince you that PAK FA will be better than F-35 and will equal -F-22A . How can you say say that F-35 is more stealthy than PAK FA,you do not know the RCS of the PAK FA, the payload,the supercruise , the extreme agility , the weapons , the thrust to weight ratio are all in the favour of PAK FA
plus if you think that DrKopp has no insight of PAK FA program then can you refute what he says about PAK FA. i think not . Russia were the pioneers ,they were the ones who detected the plasma stealth applications when they launched. Tell me one thing how can F-35 be more agile than PAK FA when PAK FA has 3-D TVC. ( sometime you have to accpet when the facts are right on your face).Not to mention many soviet scietist defected to USA and aided the stealth program for USA. I think you maybe the only person who think that russian are stupid enough to develop5th gen aircraft which will be inferior to F-35,F-22 , nowhere i mean in other forum people have said that PAK FA inferior to F-22 let alone F-35.

About Russian Stealth Program , do notice the years mentioned in the article you will know when stealth program was started
First developed by the Russians, plasma stealth technology is also known as "Active Stealth Technology". Plasma stealth is a proposed process that uses ionized gas (plasma) to reduce the radar cross section (RCS) of an aircraft. A plasma stream is injected in front of the aircraft covering the entire body of the aircraft and absorbing most of the electromagnetic energy of the radar waves, thus making the aircraft difficult to detect. There are few experimental studies of plasma's effect on RCS. One of the most interesting articles was published by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) in 1963 and described the effect of plasma on the RCS of aircraft. The article entitled "Radar cross sections of dielectric or plasma coated conducting spheres and circular cylinders" was based on the data offered by Sputnik, the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet Union on October 4, 1957.

While trying to track Sputnik it was noticed that its electromagnetic scattering properties were different from what was expected for a conductive sphere. This was due to the satellite traveling inside of a plasma shell.While Sputnik was flying at high velocity through the ionosphere it was surrounded by a naturally-occuring plasma shell and because of it there were two separate radar reflections: the first from the surface of the satellite itself and the second from the plasma shell. If one of the reflections is greater the other one will not contribute much to the overall effect. When the two reflections have the same order of magnitude and are out of phase relative to each other cancellation occurs and the RCS becomes null. The aircraft becomes invisible to radar.

In January 1999, the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS published an interview with Doctor Anatoliy Koroteyev who talked about the plasma stealth device developed by his organization. Doctor Koroteyev was the director of the Keldysh Research Center. There have also been claims that in 2002 the Russians tested a plasma stealth device on board a Su-27 and RCS was reduced by a factor of 100.

The Keldysh Research Center has created a plasma generator that weights no more than 100 kilos, thus making it possible to be fitted on board most tactical aircraft. Current stealth technology uses radar absorbent materials (RAM) and angled surfaces that don't reflect radar waves back. This constitutes as a main drawback, since an alteration of the airframe has negative effects on the flight characteristics of these aircraft. The third generation stealth technology F-22 Raptor seems however to be an exception since it is both a fast aicraft and very maneuverable.

By using a plasma generator the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft do not suffer which in term means that the payload is increased making it more effective. The use of this technology offers the benefit of not having to carry the payload internally to be able to fool enemy radar. The Sukhoi Su-35 and the MiG-35 (both upgrades of Su-27 and MiG-29) are the first to benefit from this technology.

One of the most interesting russian fighters to benefit from the plasma stealth technology is the MiG 1.42/1.44 also known as the MFI (Mnogofunktsionalny Frontovoi Istrebitel - Multifunctional Frontline Fighter). This new aircraft is a fifth generation air-superiority fighter, a rival for the american F-22 Raptor. Both aircraft have the same supercruise capability as well as thrust vectoring for supermaneuverability (a capability to fly at supercritical angles of attack, at increased level of sustained and
available g-loads and high turn-angle rate, which require a greater thrust-to-weight ratio and improved wing aerodynamic efficiency). This aircraft may prove to be a milestone in aviation, as so many russian aircraft were before.

About ASEA radar
On the prospective fighters, says Yuri Belyy (NIIP), it will no longer be just radar, but the integrated radio-electronic system, which includes radars in several wave bands, an identification system, electronic warfare (EW) and electronic intelligence (ELINT). According to him all this is connected into the united ideology, the united concept, and will give the "synergetic combat effect".

NIIP's AESA emitting modules (MMICS) are made on basis of proved serial technology, being manufacturing on the automated producing lines. For this purpose the state ensured colossal technological rearmament of one of the Moscow enterprises - "Istok inc." (Fryazevo, Moscow district). Two product lines are under building: the line, where chips themselves are done and an assembly-line, where these chips are assembled into the microcircuits, and then they are integrated into the elements of antenna. These are the specialized micro-chip of superhigh frequencies (SHF), the monolithic integrated circuits of SHF band (MMICs). The more numerous such elements, the more powerful the radar. The quantity of modules in the antenna can reach several thousand.

The PAK-FA will have two X-Band AESA radars located on the front and back of the aircraft. These will be accompanied by L-Band radars which are thought to be located on the wing LERX sides. L-Band radars are proven to have increased effectiveness against VLO targets which are optimized only against X-Band frequencies, despite being less accurate.
Unlike the F-22 the PAK-FA will feature an IRST optical/IR search and tracking system. The IRST promises to be the best way to target stealth aircraft since regardless of the IR stealth claims made of the F-22, jet engines are fundamentally not conducive to IR invisibility. The trail of hot air behind the F-22 is likely the first thing the PAK-FA may see, perhaps as far as 25km.

Avionics

The combat avionics of the T-50 has been under development for some time, and some elements will almost certainly be installed in the Su-35 interim fighter. The main sensor will be a Tikhomorov NIIP X-band radar with active AESA antenna, which was unveiled at the latest MAKS Air Show in August 2009. The 1m-dia. antenna contains some 1,500 solid stat transmit/receive modules by NPP Pulsar, which places it in the same class as the F-22's APG-77. Tikhomorov claims an exceptional range of ~400km against a 1m² equivalent radar surface target. The radar entered bench testing in November 2008, and a flyable operational prototype will be completed by mid-2010.

In a very innovative development, the main X-band antenna will be supplemented by auxiliary L-band antennas installed in the wing inboard leading edges. In addition to the obvious IFF/SSR functions, this arrangement (which is also being offered for retrofit on the Su-27/-30 family as well as the Su-35), has a very clear anti-stealth search function. Most current stealth or semi-stealth designs - and most particularly the F-35 JSF, although not the F-22 - are optimised to reduce radar signature against X-band fire control radars as the main threat, and their low-observability features and shapings do not work as well against L-band radars. Of course, the lower the frequency the higher the wavelength the poorer the accuracy of distance and angular measurements, and thus even apart from excessive volume, weight, power and cooling requirements a fighter aircraft could not possibly rely on a main L-band system alone. However, the presence of the additional L-band antennas will provide an important early warning function against at least some low-observable targets, and it may also enable a "mini-AWACS" role. It is additionally conceivable that these antennas could also be used for the detection and disruption of sensors and digital communications systems operating in L-band, including e.g. the all-important JTIDS/MIDS/Link-16.

While the PAK FA has no functioning radar yet, it already sports the protruding head of an electro-optic IRST system in front and to the right of the cockpit's windscreen. This will maintain the excellent mixed solution (radar/IRST) used in all modern Russian fighters, event tough the IRST seeker's "ball" is at odds with the search for a reduced radar signature in the front emisphere. The decision to add the L-band antennas while maintaining the IRST reinforces the perception of the T-50 being mainly intended for air defence roles against intruding low-observable strike aircraft.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/506/

Well, personally I question the source. That said, it changes nothing. As the US still have vastly more experience, expertise, and knowledge. With Stealth. Advance Fighter Engines, and AESA Radars.

 

[AJSINGH]

Well, personally I question the source. That said, it changes nothing. As the US still have vastly more experience, expertise, and knowledge. With Stealth. Advance Fighter Engines, and AESA Radars.

russia has experience with stealth as i have stated in the above article you have quoted , also their stealth program was on par with the USA untill1991( the did came out with Mig1.44 and Su47 ),after1991 things slowed down but did not die .2002 onwards russians are moving very fast when it comes to ASEA radar , airframe for 5 th gen aircraft and the avionics . America has no lead in engines , russia are on par, Stealth as you can see russians were the first to investigate about plasma stealth , radar maybe USA is ahead but not for long .

 

[nirmal]

Why are we discussing topics other than IAC here? Any latest update about status of IAC-1? It is supposed to be in waters by Oct'10 after completion of 1st phase of construction.

 

[nrj]

BTW Israel and France have not as of yet produced a better AESA Radar than the US. Remember, we have several excellent AESA Radars in Service as we speak. Including the APG-63 (V3), RACR, APG-77, APG-79, and soon APG-81. Also, I would mention that the APG-81 is only one part of a total package. I suggest you do some research on the F-35's Avionics. Especially, EO-DAS which will be light years of anything projected by Russia.[/I][/B]

Yes Crusader, I do acknowledge that US is still leading the AESA technology & has proven platforms so the real world experience & the consequent upgrades made by US are better than anyone.

But coming to F35, you see the problem with us is that of EUMA & ToT (which i dont think will be requested or will happen).
We dont want those F35s sitting ducks when actually needed. EUMA clauses are too stringent. Now US might have their own reasons not to scrap EUMA. But we are paying for those birds with no less amount. So the trade should be even.

F35 is ideal for IN but Price & EUMA are two roadblocks for the same.

 

[nrj]

Why are we discussing topics other than IAC here? Any latest update about status of IAC-1? It is supposed to be in waters by Oct'10 after completion of 1st phase of construction.

Yes Nirmal, too much of OT around but regarding F35 on IAC its relevant.

IAC-1 will probably be launched by OCT-10. Some 15-10 thousand tons work will be remained after that. Weapons fitting & underwater equipping will be major job till 2012. CIWS will be Kashtan/Barak. However, its not confirmed yet.

 

[Crusader53]

russia has experience with stealth as i have stated in the above article you have quoted , also their stealth program was on par with the USA untill1991( the did came out with Mig1.44 and Su47 ),after1991 things slowed down but did not die .2002 onwards russians are moving very fast when it comes to ASEA radar , airframe for 5 th gen aircraft and the avionics . America has no lead in engines , russia are on par, Stealth as you can see russians were the first to investigate about plasma stealth , radar maybe USA is ahead but not for long .

Sorry, Russia isn't nor has it been on par with the US in regards to Stealth.

 

[Crusader53]

Yes Crusader, I do acknowledge that US is still leading the AESA technology & has proven platforms so the real world experience & the consequent upgrades made by US are better than anyone.

But coming to F35, you see the problem with us is that of EUMA & ToT (which i dont think will be requested or will happen).
We dont want those F35s sitting ducks when actually needed. EUMA clauses are too stringent. Now US might have their own reasons not to scrap EUMA. But we are paying for those birds with no less amount. So the trade should be even.

F35 is ideal for IN but Price & EUMA are two roadblocks for the same.

I wasn't saying that India should order vast numbers of F-35 for the IAF. I was simply stating the advantages of Operating the F-35 from Indian Carriers and its capabilities.

Nonetheless, I believe India will get the F-35 at some point. Likely after the MMRCA is in service for several years.

 

[anoop_mig25]

I wasn't saying that India should order vast numbers of F-35 for the IAF. I was simply stating the advantages of Operating the F-35 from Indian Carriers and its capabilities.

Nonetheless, I believe India will get the F-35 at some point. Likely after the MMRCA is in service for several years.

yeh sure when america would had develop a sixth generation fighter plans then third world developing countries could by this as in casr for f-16 or f-18

 

[AJSINGH]

Sorry, Russia isn't nor has it been on par with the US in regards to Stealth.

dude i cant convince you , i have provided with evry single source and info ,but your still stuck with your own fighter program is better .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

dude i cant convince you , i have provided with evry single source and info ,but your still stuck with your own fighter program is better .

Dont feed the troll..

 

[nrj]

I wasn't saying that India should order vast numbers of F-35 for the IAF. I was simply stating the advantages of Operating the F-35 from Indian Carriers and its capabilities.

Nonetheless, I believe India will get the F-35 at some point. Likely after the MMRCA is in service for several years.

Yeah carriers fleets will be powered by F35 but whats the use if EUMA restricts us using them in case of conflict?
India might/might not fly F35. Several factors around that.

Anyways no place for F35 on IAC-1. Regarding IAC-2, its 7yrs due from today, many things can happen in mean time. Like already said, Naval PAK FA can't be denied even in small numbers to complement 4-4.5 Gen carrier fighters. Lets wait for IAC-1 first then things can move further.

 

[Crusader53]

Dont feed the troll..

Respectfully, for some to make will claims unsupported by fact. Is just that "Claims"! Nor, is it trolling to request a source to back up the aforementioned statements.


Now, if you guys just want to believe in wild claims unsupported and live in a dream world. That's fine........but don't expect others to just nod and take every word as the "Gospel".

Regardless, nobody is forcing anyone to change their beliefs or opinions. Yet, you need to respect my opinion as I do yours. Even if we disagree with each other......


We both live in very large "Democratic" Country's. That boast about our open society's and the right of free speech.


Maybe something you want to consider before you post your next remarks......


Respectfully,


Crusader53

 

[Crusader53]

Yeah carriers fleets will be powered by F35 but whats the use if EUMA restricts us using them in case of conflict?
India might/might not fly F35. Several factors around that.

Anyways no place for F35 on IAC-1. Regarding IAC-2, its 7yrs due from today, many things can happen in mean time. Like already said, Naval PAK FA can't be denied even in small numbers to complement 4-4.5 Gen carrier fighters. Lets wait for IAC-1 first then things can move further.

The F-35B or F-35C could easily operate far more effectively from the IAC-1 than the Mig-29K. Otherwise, the RN would be ordering Super Hornets or Rafales instead of F-35B's for its CVF's.

 

[AJSINGH]

The F-35B or F-35C could easily operate far more effectively from the IAC-1 than the Mig-29K. Otherwise, the RN would be ordering Super Hornets or Rafales instead of F-35B's for its CVF's.

look , why IN opted for Mig29K, first it is very cheap , 46.5 million with spares and support whereas Rafale M is 76million without spares.Second SH and Rafales are not capable to fly with more than 70% of their full payload unless there is steam catapult , or if longer deck with ski jump higher than 6degress. Second for 46.5 million ,our Mig29k is worth every penny ,plus neither of our potential enemies operate AC let alone 4th gen aircraft of the AC. F-35B as of now will be overkill for IN

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Respectfully, for some to make will claims unsupported by fact. Is just that "Claims"! Nor, is it trolling to request a source to back up the aforementioned statements.

Crusader53

http://warfare.ru/?catid=255&linkid=2280
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/506/

Go through it....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The F-35B or F-35C could easily operate far more effectively from the IAC-1 than the Mig-29K. Otherwise, the RN would be ordering Super Hornets or Rafales instead of F-35B's for its CVF's.

No doubt F-35 is a very capable in both a2a & a2g roles, But Indian cannot depend on such allies who have the power to restrict us from using our weapons against who intended to harm us...
Both countries consider each other hostile during coldwars, But now things look changed and their are defense cooperation between two, but again who is sure abt how long this will go..
If United States of America approved us for making licensed production of Aircrafts with TOT in hands, Spare-parts available within the country than we all Indians are satisfied with the product!

 

[StealthSniper]

No doubt F-35 is a very capable in both a2a & a2g roles, But Indian cannot depend on such a ally who have the power to restrict us from using our weapons against who intended to harm us...
Both countries consider each other hostile during coldwars, But now things look changed and their are defense cooperation between two, but again who is sure abt how long this will go..
If United States of America approved us for making licensed production of Aircrafts with TOT in hands, Spare-parts available within the country than we all Indians are satisfied with the product!

When donkeys fly than maybe America will offer us full TOT and spare parts. I still think that building our own stuff (even if it's inferior) will still be good enough for our needs and one day India will also have capable aircraft that we can sell to other countries. Their is nothing holding us back from building what we want, it just takes time and a lot of will but we will one day be self sufficent.