INS Chakra/Akula II

[p2prada]

both SeaWolf and Virginia has similar quitening but the latter is cheaper and some what less capable in blue water warfare but is better than Seawolf in Littoral environment.

Virginia is just a smaller version of the Seawolf. The end of the cold war put a stop on US plans for the Seawolf.

Not much is known and it has been a very closely guarded secret on how it works. Since passive means of detection has now come down to few hundred meters over couple of Km in 80's due to quitening in Subs ....Non Acoustic means of detection is a key area for submarine detection and tracking.

The lower the frequency of noise the deeper it needs to travel in order to be able to be heard at long distances. Closer to the surface, the noise will dissipate very quickly.

Even Indian Chakra lacks the SOKS Non-Acoustic sensors seen on Russian Submarine plus they also lack the MG-74 decoys tubes that Russian Submarine have.

Interesting. Is it possible the need for it does not exist or ToT was not given or we have developed something similar with Russian assistance? I don't believe SSBNs have the need to track submarines as regularly as a SSN. In that sense even Delta class subs do not have SOCKS. Btw, it is SOCKS.

Similarly, the MG-74 maybe a SSN specific decoy.

Other than that Arihant is much lighter and more of a TD or a prototype rather than the actual design.

 

[Austin]

Can you provide more detail on this ?

No neither I nor can any one in open circles has provided any details on how non-acoustic sensors work and what kind of capabilities they offer.

All Russian submarine officers in their memoirs or in their write up has shied away writing any thing on this topic.

The only reference one can find in open is they have the ability to track a submarines wake long after the submarine has left the area but no one can guarantee if that is a truth or just a pysch-ops.

One more reference to it came in the book "Rising Tide" which is a good book written by Russian author on the ASW struggle between Russian and US during cold war , It mentions how a Victor-3 tracked a new LA class sub after it entered area using Non Acoustic Sensors and how their sonars could not detect it but non-acoustic could detect the US subs.

The fact that you dont find those sensors on Indian Chakra speaks to a great extent on how they want to keep this capability tightly wrapped.

 

[Austin]

Virginia is just a smaller version of the Seawolf. The end of the cold war put a stop on US plans for the Seawolf.

Virginia is a cheaper Sea Wolf offering some unique capability in some area while in others it lacks those capability viz a viz seawolf.

The lower the frequency of noise the deeper it needs to travel in order to be able to be heard at long distances. Closer to the surface, the noise will dissipate very quickly.

Low Frequency tend to travel deeper but there is a limit to how much one can go lower as the Antenna Size tends to increase with lower frequency.

Interesting. Is it possible the need for it does not exist or ToT was not given or we have developed something similar with Russian assistance? I don't believe SSBNs have the need to track submarines as regularly as a SSN. In that sense even Delta class subs do not have SOCKS. Btw, it is SOCKS.

Russian SSBN have not displayed SOKS sensors suite so likely they dont have it considering SSBN dont end up hunting other subs.

Well its a Russian Name so you can call it SOKS or SOCKS it really does not matter.

Similarly, the MG-74 maybe a SSN specific decoy.

MG-74 tubes have been seen on Delta 4 , Akula and other Russian subs , In total Russian Akula carried 8 MG-74 Decoys in non-relodable tubes above TT.

Other than that Arihant is much lighter and more of a TD or a prototype rather than the actual design.

Yes Arihant is a TD but the next two S-3 and S-4 will be identical as Arun Prakash has mentioned , later class S-5 will be bigger boats.

 

[sayareakd]

i thought S1 was test demo.

 

[sayareakd]

BTW they do take S1 for spin, one Israeli bird said once.

 

[p2prada]

No neither I nor can any one in open circles has provided any details on how non-acoustic sensors work and what kind of capabilities they offer.

All Russian submarine officers in their memoirs or in their write up has shied away writing any thing on this topic.

All detection and tracking related materials for aircraft, submarines and ships are taught by word of mouth rather than using written material. This is common for all countries.

The only reference one can find in open is they have the ability to track a submarines wake long after the submarine has left the area but no one can guarantee if that is a truth or just a pysch-ops.

It could be true because the SOCKS can check temperature and salinity of the sea in the area. Narwhals have such sensors inbuilt in their tusks and use it to find food. These are animals mainly found in the Arctic, a lot around Russia. Maybe the Russians based their studies on this natural aspect to design the SOCKS. This is only my opinion though.

Mystery of 'Unicorn' Whale Solved | LiveScience

 

[p2prada]

Low Frequency tend to travel deeper but there is a limit to how much one can go lower as the Antenna Size tends to increase with lower frequency.

It is mostly physics. Most probably has very little military bearing anyway.

Russian SSBN have not displayed SOKS sensors suite so likely they dont have it considering SSBN dont end up hunting other subs.

Yeah. So, that's why I meant Arihant won't need one either. It would be more interesting if we they suddenly unveil an Arihant class SSN with this sensor suite, or without.

Well its a Russian Name so you can call it SOKS or SOCKS it really does not matter.

Is it an abbreviation, or does it mean something in Russian?

Yes Arihant is a TD but the next two S-3 and S-4 will be identical as Arun Prakash has mentioned , later class S-5 will be bigger boats.

It will take us a minimum of 30 years to catch up to the US and Russia. No need to hurry as long as we have second strike capability against Pak and China. We can build up on the Arihant experience to make better SSNs later.

 

[Austin]

Not just word of mouth but lot of classified material exists on the subject in documents which are used to train ASW operators , ASW is as much about Skill as it is about technology , ASW is a very classified subject and submariners called silent service , so very little is known about it beyond the basic stuff.

Another important milestone in NATO-Russian struggle was Operation Artina .....in which 4-5 Russian Victor-3 SSN engaged the entire NATO forces in an exercises that remains very unique till this day ....Russian used this exercise to learn about strength of NATO ASW forces and improve its weak area as well as an opportunity to show NATO where they stand on it.

This exercise was very carefully planned evading all sorts of stuff NATO relied on including satellites ,sensor network and ofcourse spies

A nice video on Ops Atrina

Voennoe Delo: Operation "Atrina". Soviet Navy vs NATO (English subtitles) - YouTube

 

[afako]

i thought S1 was test demo.

S1 was the Test Hull.

S2 is the Arihant.

S3 and S4 are 6000 Tonne Hulls (Ardiman and Sister Sub)

S4 and S5 will be bigger and come at the end of the decade.

Recent News was 2 SSBNs were approved and they were S2 and S3.

 

[afako]

Austin,

Are the Arihants Double Hulled like the Russians?

 

[Austin]

Austin,

Are the Arihants Double Hulled like the Russians?

Yes the pictures partially reveled shows its double hulled sub.

 

[afako]

Yes the pictures partially reveled shows its double hulled sub.

What is the best speculation in its quiteness compared to the others?

 

[Austin]

What is the best speculation in its quiteness compared to the others?

The Russian Ambasador once mentioned that the design of Arihant was based on Akula .......The Russian dont call what we and west know as Akula but Schuka-B , for then Akula means Typhoon SSBN.

here is the quote 'More upgrades will hike the Gorshkov's price'

I watched the launch of India's first nuclear submarine at Vishakapatnam on July 26, and do you know about the design of this submarine? It is the Akula (the Russian submarine).

So my best speculation would be its quiteness of Arihant is closer to Typhoon SSBN

Just to get a rough idea where Typhoon stands in quiteness among other Russian SSBN check link below

What is known about the character of noise created by submarines? Appendix 1 - The Future of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces - E.V. Miasnikov


Even if we manage to get to Typhoon class noise level via Russia its quite an achievement as it has taken Russians neary 4 decades and billions spent to reach that level.

Compare the fact that Chinese submarine even with 3-4 decades of lead in nuclear submarine building has not reached noise level of even Delta 3 SSBN with their latest Jin class SSBN according to ONI which is Russian 70's design , we would have significant lead over China considering we had a leap from Zero to Typhoon class

 

[Kunal Biswas]

One more reference to it came in the book "Rising Tide" which is a good book written by Russian author on the ASW struggle between Russian and US during cold war , It mentions how a Victor-3 tracked a new LA class sub after it entered area using Non Acoustic Sensors and how their sonars could not detect it but non-acoustic could detect the US subs.

The fact that you dont find those sensors on Indian Chakra speaks to a great extent on how they want to keep this capability tightly wrapped.

Is there any info about where this happened ? in Russian water in black seas or in Atlantic ?

Coz if that was in Russian waters, Its not about the sub much..

 

[sayareakd]

S1 was the Test Hull.

S2 is the Arihant.

S3 and S4 are 6000 Tonne Hulls (Ardiman and Sister Sub)

S4 and S5 will be bigger and come at the end of the decade.

Recent News was 2 SSBNs were approved and they were S2 and S3.

It has nuclear reactor.

 

[sayareakd]

Yes the pictures partially reveled shows its double hulled sub.

which pictures ??

 

[afako]

It has nuclear reactor.

Why not it should be?

 

[sayareakd]

Why not it should be?

you said

S1 was the Test Hull.

which means it can be tested with our without nuke reactor. So i just posted that it has functional nuke reactor.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INS Chakra's control room and torpedo room during upgrade..

@Twinblade

 

[drkrn]

hey boss look at the wooden desk.this pic seem too old