India's Nuclear Doctrine

[ice berg]

As long as CCP chooses to arm Pakistan, there is nothing India can do (except maybe arm Vietnam, but I think our country has a cleaner conscience that the Chinese).

However, a high yield device will send a message of total annihilation of Pakistan should they choose to go the way of nuclear conflict. It would also mean that nuclear conflict with China is almost entirely ruled out.

Whether India choose to arm Vietnam or not, has nothing to do with "conscience". India has supported Dalai Lama for decades. China started to arm Pakistan years after the Sino-Indian war. Try to get off your moral high horse.
Let us stick to the topic instead.

I still fail to see the logic here. Pakistan will see the light because a high yield device from India? You got be kidding, right. India is not gonna pursuade Pakistan with high yield devices. In reality you are telling Pakistan and China that you may move away from deterrence to offence. It will be a vicious circle with both Pakistan and India spend money on nukes instead of development.

The only winner will be the countries selling uranium.

The possibility of nuclear war is rules out because both India and China got deterrence. It got nothing to do with wether India has high yield devices or not.

More isnt always better. That is the whole point of deterrence.

 

[Dovah]

India has supported Dalai Lama for decades. China started to arm Pakistan years after the Sino-Indian war.

Sheltering a Spiritual Leader and arming a rabid fundamentalist state might be equivalent in your books, not ours.

 

[ice berg]

Sheltering a Spiritual Leader and arming a rabid fundamentalist state might be equivalent in your books, not ours.

It is always a matter of perceptions. Anyway this is hardly relevant for this topic. The topic is about India nuclear doctrines. Let us not derail the topic.

 

[trackwhack]

Whether India choose to arm Vietnam or not, has nothing to do with "conscience". India has supported Dalai Lama for decades. China started to arm Pakistan years after the Sino-Indian war. Try to get off your moral high horse.
Let us stick to the topic instead.

Ah, good with cliches I see. Where have I veered from the topic? Stop talking nonsense. Of course not arming Vietnam has to do a lot to do with conscience. A tit for tat is long due, but we refrain from it because as a nation we have don't need other countries to fight our wars. We gave the Dalai Lama refuge because had he stayed there your beloved CCP would have executed him and thousands of others.

I still fail to see the logic here. Pakistan will see the light because a high yield device from India? You got be kidding, right. India is not gonna pursuade Pakistan with high yield devices. In reality you are telling Pakistan and China that you may move away from deterrence to offence. It will be a vicious circle with both Pakistan and India spend money on nukes instead of development.

India does not need to persuade anyone. Pakistan will never see the light, if they had to they would have. However India needs enough to ensure that not a blade of grass grows in Pakistan for another 500 years in case they try anything. And kiloton nukes just wont cut it.

Development, hahaha, whats that, a Chinese exclusivity? You dont need to acknowledge anything but in 30 years we will have as much if not more spending power than the Chinese. Of course we will have the cash to support a massive nuke program if need be. And we will also have the cash to support a massive counter nuke program too. So spare me the 'Use the money for development' bullshit. The west have been using that tagline for 60 years trying to stop our technology programs. Suddenly China sees some growth and you feel obliged to say the same.

The only winner will be the countries selling uranium.

Uranium is so yesterday my friend, You obviously havent kept up with technology. There is enough reactor grade plutonium in India right now for about 5000 30 kiloton nuclear weapons. We dont need an ounce of uranium if we decide to increase our weapons stockpile. Go learn some math about how much of what it takes to make a bomb.

The possibility of nuclear war is rules out because both India and China got deterrence. It got nothing to do with wether India has high yield devices or not.

The possibility of nuclear war between India and China is ruled out - let us hope the CCP understands that and does not use war as a desperation move to hold onto power. You see, your country is not run on consensus. It is run by a group of retarded egomaniacs.

More isnt always better. That is the whole point of deterrence.

Pray, can you explain with another fancy cliche why China has megaton warheads? Is it for a grand fireworks show on the Chinese New Year?

 

[Yusuf]

Track,

For your information even china does not have hot nukes on hair trigger. That is how second strike works. Hide everything so that you don't lose it in a first strike and then make sure you hit back with everything.

Chinese nuclear ballistic missile submarines dont go on patrol with hot nukes.

Yield does not matter. A nuke is a nuke. I have said enough on yields of nuclear weapons in many threads over the years.

 

[trackwhack]

Track,

For your information even china does not have hot nukes on hair trigger. That is how second strike works. Hide everything so that you don't lose it in a first strike and then make sure you hit back with everything.

Chinese nuclear ballistic missile submarines dont go on patrol with hot nukes.

Yield does not matter. A nuke is a nuke. I have said enough on yields of nuclear weapons in many threads over the years.

How do you know a Chinese state secret Yusuf. I find that extremely difficult to believe. The whole purpose of solid propellant Ballistic missiles are hot nukes in silos and submarines.

 

[ice berg]

Ah, good with cliches I see. Where have I veered from the topic? Stop talking nonsense. Of course not arming Vietnam has to do a lot to do with conscience. A tit for tat is long due, but we refrain from it because as a nation we have don't need other countries to fight our wars. We gave the Dalai Lama refuge because had he stayed there your beloved CCP would have executed him and thousands of others.

You are the one mention Vietnam and conscience when the name of this thread is Indias flawed nuclear doctrines. End of story.


India does not need to persuade anyone. Pakistan will never see the light, if they had to they would have. However India needs enough to ensure that not a blade of grass grows in Pakistan for another 500 years in case they try anything. And kiloton nukes just wont cut it.

Right, then what is the number of nukes to make sure "not a blade of grass grows in Pakistan for another 500 years?"
Let us have a number here.

Development, hahaha, whats that, a Chinese exclusivity? You dont need to acknowledge anything but in 30 years we will have as much if not more spending power than the Chinese. Of course we will have the cash to support a massive nuke program if need be. And we will also have the cash to support a massive counter nuke program too. So spare me the 'Use the money for development' bullshit. The west have been using that tagline for 60 years trying to stop our technology programs. Suddenly China sees some growth and you feel obliged to say the same.

To be honest I couldnt care less what India look like in 30 years. If India doing good, good for her, if not, that is your problem.
My point is that past certain point, deterrence dont have a meaning. If you can make do with 200 nukes, why have 2000?
I have no problem with other people dont see it that way. The important thing is how the decision makers in China, India and Pakistan see it. As far as I know none of them are increasing the numbers in an alarming rate. Both China and India has nukes for decades. Why havnt them increased the number significantly? Anyone should ask them selves that question first.
I couldnt care less what som fan boy in internet thinks.

Uranium is so yesterday my friend, You obviously havent kept up with technology. There is enough reactor grade plutonium in India right now for about 5000 30 kiloton nuclear weapons. We dont need an ounce of uranium if we decide to increase our weapons stockpile. Go learn some math about how much of what it takes to make a bomb.

I have no problem admiting my lack of knowledge in nukes. Why should I care anyway? I find the strategy behind nuclear deterrence far more interesting than how to make one. I dont see how relevant how many nukes India can make to this topic. It was never question of that. It is about the willingness, not the ability. Try to read my post more carefully.


The possibility of nuclear war between India and China is ruled out - let us hope the CCP understands that and does not use war as a desperation move to hold onto power. You see, your country is not run on consensus. It is run by a group of retarded egomaniacs.

CCP is not run on consensus? You mean they are controlled by some certain families like cough, India?


Pray, can you explain with another fancy cliche why China has megaton warheads? Is it for a grand fireworks show on the Chinese New Year?

In case you dont know, during the cold war the threat of nuclear strikes on China was real. From both USA and USSR. If you believe that is a fancy cliche, so be it.

 

[Ray]

The crucial goal in maintaining second strike capabilities is preventing first strike attacks from taking out a nation's nuclear arsenal, allowing for nuclear retaliation to be carried out. The nuclear triad is a way for countries to diversify their nuclear arsenals in order to better ensure second strike capability.

The countries have many diverse launch mechanisms, scenarios in case of nuclear attack, launch mechanisms in many different areas of the country and underground launch facilities that are specifically designed to stand a nuclear attack.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_strike

 

[ice berg]

How do you know a Chinese state secret Yusuf. I find that extremely difficult to believe. The whole purpose of solid propellant Ballistic missiles are hot nukes in silos and submarines.

Based on intelligence from Russia and USA. The CCP guards the nukes like their virgin daughters. The 2. artillary dont even get them during exercises.

 

[Yusuf]

How do you know a Chinese state secret Yusuf. I find that extremely difficult to believe. The whole purpose of solid propellant Ballistic missiles are hot nukes in silos and submarines.

Some people call me RAW agent but seriously though it comes from western intel. Chinese have their nukes in component form just like India and Pakistan.

 

[Yusuf]

In case you dont know, during the cold war the threat of nuclear strikes on China was real. From both USA and USSR. If you believe that is a fancy cliche, so be it.

Agree. The Chinese defereed the mighty Soviets with 12 bombs in their arsenal!!

 

[Tshering22]

As long as CCP chooses to arm Pakistan, there is nothing India can do (except maybe arm Vietnam, but I think our country has a cleaner conscience that the Chinese).

That's stupid. There's nothing wrong with arming Vietnam. They are not a deranged expansionist tyrannical country. They have NPT signed, have no nuclear ambition, are important members of ASEAN, have a rising economy and best of all; they have same territorial problems we have. If only our military production was 4-5 times more than us and we could manufacture at even half the speed China does, then we could have easily armed Vietnamese with some of the finest weapons.

However, a high yield device will send a message of total annihilation of Pakistan should they choose to go the way of nuclear conflict. It would also mean that nuclear conflict with China is almost entirely ruled out.

We already have enough WMDs to annihilate anyone. Do you seriously think that a stupid NDTV or Tez's reporter would get his or her hands on something as sensitive as our nuclear destructive capacity? No one outside Strategic Forces Command (SFC) knows that; neither Munni-mohan nor Madam G.

What good is a No First Strike policy if we don't already have armed warheads ready to be fired at the first instance of nuclear aggression. Even 20 minutes to arm and fire a missile is enough for the enemy who has already declared a nuclear conflict to target every major population center in the country. Hence my opinion that if this scenario ever occurred, we might surrender.

I agree and fear about this. But in worst case scenario, this government will be removed by military tri-services. In full Red Alert, if the civilian government is not able to manage well or is an obstacle to military decisions, military always boots such losers out. Indira was having nightmares everyday that General Manekshaw would do that with her. But since he was a wonderful man, he didn't do it.

As it is no one other than the Strategic Command knows the state of readiness.

100%. I really doubt anybody outside even knows how many Agni-IIIs have long been inducted than some samples just to show media "it was successful". No two words other than political achievement shown. Missiles are 99% times ready much before their declarations. The difference between Commies and democracies is that the former don't tell at all but in latter case they show it much later than its actual happening.

 

[trackwhack]

You are the one mention Vietnam and conscience when the name of this thread is Indias flawed nuclear doctrines. End of story.

End of what story. How does mentioning arming of Vietnam move away from the topic. If India arms Vietnam with nukes, then thats a part of our nuclear policy.

Right, then what is the number of nukes to make sure "not a blade of grass grows in Pakistan for another 500 years?"
Let us have a number here.

Difficult to estimate but in excess of a dozen megatons for sure. Right now we dont have any.

I have no problem admiting my lack of knowledge in nukes. Why should I care anyway? I find the strategy behind nuclear deterrence far more interesting than how to make one. I dont see how relevant how many nukes India can make to this topic. It was never question of that. It is about the willingness, not the ability. Try to read my post more carefully.

Since you admit to not knowing there is no need to respond to this point

CCP is not run on consensus? You mean they are controlled by some certain families like cough, India?

We still elect them to power. We still elect them out of power if and when the fuck up. You dont have such choice. The CCP even tells you how often you are allowed to consummate. In your own words - End of Story.

In case you dont know, during the cold war the threat of nuclear strikes on China was real. From both USA and USSR. If you believe that is a fancy cliche, so be it.

The cold war is over - Why dont you decommission the megaton warheads?

Based on intelligence from Russia and USA. The CCP guards the nukes like their virgin daughters. The 2. artillary dont even get them during exercises.

Lol. Ok Sure, If you say so.

 

[trackwhack]

That's stupid. There's nothing wrong with arming Vietnam. They are not a deranged expansionist tyrannical country. They have NPT signed, have no nuclear ambition, are important members of ASEAN, have a rising economy and best of all; they have same territorial problems we have. If only our military production was 4-5 times more than us and we could manufacture at even half the speed China does, then we could have easily armed Vietnamese with some of the finest weapons.

I'm still on the fence about arming Vietnam with nuclear weapons, but agree with the rest of what you say.

We already have enough WMDs to annihilate anyone. Do you seriously think that a stupid NDTV or Tez's reporter would get his or her hands on something as sensitive as our nuclear destructive capacity? No one outside Strategic Forces Command (SFC) knows that; neither Munni-mohan nor Madam G.

The P5 all have megaton warheads, we are not smarter than them as far as nuclear deterrence is concerned.

I agree and fear about this. But in worst case scenario, this government will be removed by military tri-services. In full Red Alert, if the civilian government is not able to manage well or is an obstacle to military decisions, military always boots such losers out. Indira was having nightmares everyday that General Manekshaw would do that with her. But since he was a wonderful man, he didn't do it.

I hope so too.

100%. I really doubt anybody outside even knows how many Agni-IIIs have long been inducted than some samples just to show media "it was successful". No two words other than political achievement shown. Missiles are 99% times ready much before their declarations. The difference between Commies and democracies is that the former don't tell at all but in latter case they show it much later than its actual happening.

I'd feel safer if I knew what our readiness was in terms of timeframe.

 

[ice berg]

Agree. The Chinese defereed the mighty Soviets with 12 bombs in their arsenal!!

Good old days.

 

[Ray]

Iraq could release WMD in 45mins as per Blair!

 

[ice berg]

Come back when India actually arms Vietnam with nukes. Until then it will remain a wet dream.

YOu think a dozen magaton nukes will prevent Pakistan from getting their own?
We will just have to disagree on this.

Your original assesment was that CCP was not run on consensus. Which I rebuked. I never mentioned how they get elected and stay in power. Try to stick to your own statement.

The cold war may be over, there is however still nukes pointed at China.

 

[Yusuf]

I'd feel safer if I knew what our readiness was in terms of timeframe.

You are safer because the enemy too does not know what the timframe is which adds to the deterrence.

 

[trackwhack]

Come back when India actually arms Vietnam with nukes. Until then it will remain a wet dream.

YOu think a dozen magaton nukes will prevent Pakistan from getting their own?
We will just have to disagree on this.

Your original assesment was that CCP was not run on consensus. Which I rebuked. I never mentioned how they get elected and stay in power. Try to stick to your own statement.

The cold war may be over, there is however still nukes pointed at China.

The only way to megaton warheads is thermonuclear capability. The only way Pakistan will ever get that is if the CCP gift wraps one for them. If our intelligence confirms that, we should consider it as an act of war on part of China.

Regarding arming Vietnam, my assessment is that India is just waiting for China's next significant defence deal with Pakistan. Then the fun starts.

You cold war justification for megaton nukes falls flat. Nukes pointed at India by China is the same reason why we need megaton warheads too.

 

[ice berg]

The only way to megaton warheads is thermonuclear capability. The only way Pakistan will ever get that is if the CCP gift wraps one for them. If our intelligence confirms that, we should consider it as an act of war on part of China.

Regarding arming Vietnam, my assessment is that India is just waiting for China's next significant defence deal with Pakistan. Then the fun starts.

You cold war justification for megaton nukes falls flat. Nukes pointed at India by China is the same reason why we need megaton warheads too.

Act of war? Really, you gonna wage war IF China arms Pakistan with megaton warheads?

China has armed Pakistan with arms for decades. I am not good at history, but I cant recall India ever waged a war on China because of that. Anyway you dont need to convince me, just convince your government that they should wage a war on China because of that. Good luck!:thumb:

If you think India is gonna nuclear arm Vietnam, then I can only shake my head on your ignorance. PWhy havnt India done so already if it is as easy as you make it? After all, it is nothing new that China is arming Pakistan. India has had nukes for decades. She can arm Vietnam any time she wants.

And what significant defence deal? China has no need for that.

China dont have nukes pointed at India. China got missiles pointed at India. None of them are mated. If you dont cant tell the difference between a missile and mated nuclear assets, then i am not gonna waste time explaining to you.

China has no first use policy just like India. That is the best assurance you got. Megaton nukes or not is not gonna change the equilibrium between India and China.

Internet warriors may be irrational ,but decision makers in two of the most populous countries cant afford to be that. Otherwise both countries will go up in smoke long time ago. The fact that both countries are doing well, is proof enough.

My last post on this thread.