India's Nuclear Doctrine

[advaita]

You are talking like Brigadier Amanullah now

I will have to read about him...
What I see pratyaksh is the thing for which i seek no pramand

 

[Officer of Engineers]

At an individual level even your executioner will not be cussing you. Societys, Groups of people, Countries become an all together new organism. Hindus and Muslims never hurt each other still they keep fighting in every riot.

I was following the conversation before this. Now? I give up. It's too early to leave work for a shot of GLENLIVET.

 

[advaita]

What?


What?

I presented Stuart to give you some idea about your country's nuclear decision policies. I am certainly not an Indian decision maker nor in any position to influence any Indian policy.

I agree Stuart is your baby. It may or may not have some bearing on Indian policy makers. Only time can tell that.

One thing is sure though these policy makers are going to take a major portion of there ideas from the rough and tumble of Indian life. If we dont demand better security we wont get it....simple.

 

[Antimony]

About Vietnam, they just created a hero out of Vietnam and a s...h... out of themselves. (this is only my secondary interest)

My point is that we could have done the same in 1962 instead of playing the victim

About Amanullah, here you go:

A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier - The Atlantic (March 2002)

 

[advaita]

Ok Antimony lets call it a day.
The only intelligent Sinic is gone and the rest two arent as intelligent.

 

[Antimony]

Ok Antimony lets call it a day.
The only intelligent Sinic is gone and the rest two arent as intelligent.

Good night, will talk later. Don't read Amanullah before you go to sleep if you want to avoid nightmares

 

[advaita]

My point is that we could have done the same in 1962 instead of playing the victim

At that time Indians had no choice.

But better late then never.

About Amanullah, here you go:

A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier - The Atlantic (March 2002)

Thanks will read this.

 

[INDIANBULL]

There's only one way to control cholera - clean water. Anyone who tells you different haven't seen a refugee camp.

Look i dont disagree with you that 15-40kt weapon can also inflict a great irreversible damage but your argument regarding spreading waterborne diseases like cholera after nuclear strike is quite not digestable to me as if then it is the case then why big 5 have developed 300kt nukes or even megaton nukes???

The power and fear that Thermonuclear weapons carry with them is simply terrible and dreaded and this makes H-bombs more usefull form of credible detterence. As Ashley himself points out that it was the MAD(mutually assured destruction) syndrome associated with big nuclear arsenals(including thermonukes) that prevented a war, but then he states that the same is not the case in south asian region as nuclear arsenals of Pakistan and India are small, not predictable in terms of quality and quantity and so these arsenals dont assure Mutualy Assured Destruction. So a small nuclear arsenal of India without 200-300kt nukes in sufficient quantity cannt provide an assured and credible deterence and this infact can lead some miscalculation on part of pakistan to start a limited conflict to attract international intervention in kashmir or to inflict more terrorist attacks on India and then a series of chain reactions can lead to a nuclear war in south asia.

I also dont agree with the fact that Nuclear weapons are for deternece purpose only, nukes have been used in past as weapon of war by US in 2nd WW and they may be used again in south asian context because of the brinkmanship of pakistan or or any Indian misalculation.

 

[INDIANBULL]

dupliaction sorry

 

[INDIANBULL]

*** Sigh *** Do you know the Chinese has a recessed arsenal?

No i dont know much about chinese arsenal but i dont believe that Chinese nuke arsenal is recessed because as i know they have some operational SSBNs carrying nuclear tipped ballistic missiles so how it can be declared a recessed arsenal???

Also Chinese are believed to ahve deployed nuclear tipped B missiles in Tibet by Indian intellignce sources so it makes their nuclear arsenal in a state of readiness and not a recessed one

Anyhow i am more concerned about Indian nuclear arsenal because it makes me anxious about the security of my nation.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Look i dont disagree with you that 15-40kt weapon can also inflict a great irreversible damage but your argument regarding spreading waterborne diseases like cholera after nuclear strike is quite not digestable to me as if then it is the case then why big 5 have developed 300kt nukes or even megaton nukes???

Hardened targets required accuracy as well as high yield, ie missile silos or command centres like Cheyene Mountain. In the case of the Chinese, they got lazy and never replaced their big 3 MT warheads with smaller MIRV versions. India is not going to hit hardened targets. Too few missiles and too few nukes to do the job properly.

The power and fear that Thermonuclear weapons carry with them is simply terrible and dreaded and this makes H-bombs more usefull form of credible detterence. As Ashley himself points out that it was the MAD(mutually assured destruction) syndrome associated with big nuclear arsenals(including thermonukes) that prevented a war, but then he states that the same is not the case in south asian region as nuclear arsenals of Pakistan and India are small, not predictable in terms of quality and quantity and so these arsenals dont assure Mutualy Assured Destruction. So a small nuclear arsenal of India without 200-300kt nukes in sufficient quantity cannt provide an assured and credible deterence and this infact can lead some miscalculation on part of pakistan to start a limited conflict to attract international intervention in kashmir or to inflict more terrorist attacks on India and then a series of chain reactions can lead to a nuclear war in south asia.

Hate to tell you this but we've made no differentiation between fission, fusion, or even biological or chemical weapons by the way. Each and every one of these weapons would elicit a nuclear response

I also dont agree with the fact that Nuclear weapons are for deternece purpose only, nukes have been used in past as weapon of war by US in 2nd WW and they may be used again in south asian context because of the brinkmanship of pakistan or or any Indian misalculation.

Don't argue with me but your own General K. Sundarji, the architect of your doctrine,

In war-fighting, whether conventional or nuclear, whilst calculating relative strengths, more is always better. But for deterrence, more is not better if less is adequate.

Dreams of ‘disarming first strikes’ leading to the temptation to ‘go first’ and the consequent instability of Small Nuclear Power equations are think-tank myths.

I strongly suspect that the genie has already escaped from the bottle, and proliferation has already occurred, making it too late to keep the area nuclear weapon-free. I believe that the emphasis must now shift to keeping the area nuclear weapon-safe.

If a minimum nuclear deterrent is in place, it will act as a stabilizing factor… Why all this fuss about India and Pakistan, while not much is heard about the Israeli nuclear arsenal?

Many arguments… are used to harangue India and Pakistan, pointing out that they are foolish (children) to believe that by going nuclear they are augmenting their national security, when by Western reckoning they are only increasing their vulnerability to nuclear chastisement (by the legitimately nuclear adults of the world, the USA, China, etc.). This kind of patronizing attitude is so infuriating…

For a sober, mature status quo power like India, a unilateral declaration of no first use should be axiomatic.

Possession of nuclear weapons would give Pakistan the confidence to face a larger neighbour with security and honor… This confidence on the part of Pakistan is to be welcomed as it is a positive asset for national sobriety and regional stability.

Why would the Chinese want to fire nuclear weapons at us – just because we are supposed to have deployed some nuclear weapons that have the range to reach China?

India has to maintain a minimum deterrence in respect of both China and Pakistan; the result of this might lead to some apparent imbalance in nuclear weapons and delivery means between Pakistan and India. The fears that this might engender in Pakistan are natural, and India must handle the issue sensibly and with sensitivity.

Source: ArmsControlWonk: K. Sundarji and India's Bomb Like I said elsewhere, the more I read about the man, the more I like him. If he was ever a student of Sun Tzu, he would have surpassed the old master.

No i dont know much about chinese arsenal but i dont believe that Chinese nuke arsenal is recessed because as i know they have some operational SSBNs carrying nuclear tipped ballistic missiles so how it can be declared a recessed arsenal???

Also Chinese are believed to ahve deployed nuclear tipped B missiles in Tibet by Indian intellignce sources so it makes their nuclear arsenal in a state of readiness and not a recessed one.

A look through my links, especially Dr Jefferie's The Minimum Means of Reprisal would have shown you that the warheads are not mated to the missiles and the Chinese SSBNs do not go on patrol with nukes on board.

 

[advaita]

My point is that we could have done the same in 1962 instead of playing the victim

About Amanullah, here you go:

A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier - The Atlantic (March 2002)

Come Antimony. You are comparing me to this guy...

Are you an Indian. If you are have you not found anything in its culture about the whys and wherefores of war.
Come to think of it I was considering the diaspora the reserve Indian strength (Corsham, Cheyene....)

1)
Amanullah is a war nut.
Stuart is a peace nut.
2)
Amanullah wants to loose because he has nothing left to loose.
Stuart wants peace because he has so much to loose.
3)
Amanullah will kill someone and shift the responsibility of his failure to set right his own country right, elsewhere.
Stuart's more refined lifestyle will rather have someone else killed by some borrowed knife-Chinese knife (probably in some poor third world country like Cambodiaw ww.newsmekong.org/node/866 ) only so he can live his cushy indolent existence in some OECD country Cambodian Genocide Program | Yale University.


Both of these are extreams and obviously flawed.

Antimony my thesis (though it was originated from the giants on whose shoulders I am making an attempt to stand today) is very simple.

(1) The fact the life comes (Indian or non Indian), implies that we have to serve life.
(2) Life is not just the desire to live anyhow but to live in balance.
(3) The second caveat is important because more often then not the desire to have ones way over takes the balance.
(4) This balance has to be set right. And since it can go off at any level or detected to be going off at any level so it has to be set right at every level. Warfare even total or otherwise is just one more of the tools to do that.
(5) Nature oftentimes ensures balance through its means. Man is just one more of the means.
(6) Man will find himself in such a position where he has to serve the larger purpose of establishment of balance, then he should consider this is good fortune and serve accordingly.
(7) At that moment if some idiot says Time-out, then I am afraid thats no help. So it is wiser to prepare ahead of such eventuality.
(8) Even though this debate about NFU declaration does not carry much weight (since there is no insurance attached to the NFU and in even if there could be then who would be there to collect it) but understanding the limits of the larger doctrine (of which NFU is only a subset) is a valid exercise and especially so in a country like India.

 

[advaita]

India is not going to hit hardened targets. Too few missiles and too few nukes to do the job properly.

Yes pop centers are first step (sufficient deterrent too) but it would be a lot better if PLA is wiped out and Lay Chinese lives, that gives an entirely new dimension to the whole idea. That is why perhaps the doctrine should be refined further and of course with it all that goes with it.

Hate to tell you this but we've made no differentiation between fission, fusion, or even biological or chemical weapons by the way. Each and every one of these weapons would elicit a nuclear response

I am sure most Indians who want to strengthen the doctrine are aware of this. Those who are not (the majority) should probably be educated about the sociol political economic and identity issues involved.

That is why probably the Two front war and 20/30 plan should be also included as a trigger for giving up NFU.

Don't argue with me but your own General K. Sundarji, the architect of your doctrine,

Absolutely nobody in the forum is arguing with Gen. Sunderji. We all want to strenghten his ideas, which are one of the best peice of ideas that came along.

Source: ArmsControlWonk: K. Sundarji and India's Bomb Like I said elsewhere, the more I read about the man, the more I like him. If he was ever a student of Sun Tzu, he would have surpassed the old master.

Now that you are using this site as source. Probably even you are convinced that Indians need to refine there weaponry further esp TN (this site is very confident of ITN not being present).

A look through my links, especially Dr Jefferie's The Minimum Means of Reprisal would have shown you that the warheads are not mated to the missiles and the Chinese SSBNs do not go on patrol with nukes on board.

Sir in certain matters there can be no trust for the simple reason that there can be no verifiability.
That is why the doctrine has to provide for every single eventuality.

 

[Antimony]

Come Antimony. You are comparing me to this guy...

Ok, that might have been an overstatement. But you do sound like you think that a nuke exchange is inevitable

Are you an Indian. If you are have you not found anything in its culture about the whys and wherefores of war.
Come to think of it I was considering the diaspora the reserve Indian strength (Corsham, Cheyene....)

Born and brought up in Calcutta. Spent the first 28 years of life exclusively in India

1)
Amanullah is a war nut.
Stuart is a peace nut.
2)
Amanullah wants to loose because he has nothing left to loose.
Stuart wants peace because he has so much to loose.
3)
Amanullah will kill someone and shift the responsibility of his failure to set right his own country right, elsewhere.
Stuart's more refined lifestyle will rather have someone else killed by some borrowed knife-Chinese knife (probably in some poor third world country like Cambodiaw ww.newsmekong.org/node/866 ) only so he can live his cushy indolent existence in some OECD country Cambodian Genocide Program | Yale University.

Regarding Amanullah, bang on the money.

Regarding Stuart, the important thing that you are missing is that Stuart's job was to acquire nuclear targets. All he is attempting to do is to explan the ground rules of nuclear weapons, their effects, how they should be used and how to craft policy around them. Regardless of who creates that policy, they will still have to take into effect expected result of a nuclear expolosion when they write that policy. Nothing changes that. Someone can go ahead and nuke the Taj and they will achieve squat. Nothing changes that. so it stands to reason that they will probably follow the methodology that Stuart attempted to explain, and in turn be prepared to deal with the same effects on their end. No more, no less

Antimony my thesis (though it was originated from the giants on whose shoulders I am making an attempt to stand today) is very simple.

(1) The fact the life comes (Indian or non Indian), implies that we have to serve life.
(2) Life is not just the desire to live anyhow but to live in balance.
(3) The second caveat is important because more often then not the desire to have ones way over takes the balance.
(4) This balance has to be set right. And since it can go off at any level or detected to be going off at any level so it has to be set right at every level. Warfare even total or otherwise is just one more of the tools to do that.
(5) Nature oftentimes ensures balance through its means. Man is just one more of the means.
(6) Man will find himself in such a position where he has to serve the larger purpose of establishment of balance, then he should consider this is good fortune and serve accordingly.
(7) At that moment if some idiot says Time-out, then I am afraid thats no help. So it is wiser to prepare ahead of such eventuality.
(8) Even though this debate about NFU declaration does not carry much weight (since there is no insurance attached to the NFU and in even if there could be then who would be there to collect it) but understanding the limits of the larger doctrine (of which NFU is only a subset) is a valid exercise and especially so in a country like India.

I am guessing what you are trying to say is that warfare is inevitable. that's true and that's why we prepare for it. It is also true that we try our best (through diplomatic means and otherwise) to not go down the path where we would actually have to fight one.

Since you often quote Geeta, you would know how much effort the Pandavs put in to actually prevent a war.

 

[ahmedsid]

This is a Warning, No Personal Exchanges please otherwise take it in Via PM, stick to the topic and Only the The Topic.

 

[advaita]

But you do sound like you think that a nuke exchange is inevitable

What is inevitable is for god to know. Indians cannot say time out at the time the eventuality becomes Inevitability. Wiser to err on the side to safety by keeping the tools handy and ready and ready for use and getting our own (Indian Populace's) mind clear about the need and importance of facing such a situation should it arise.

Regarding Amanullah, bang on the money.

Regarding Stuart, the important thing that you are missing is that Stuart's job was to acquire nuclear targets. All he is attempting to do is to explan the ground rules of nuclear weapons, their effects, how they should be used and how to craft policy around them. Regardless of who creates that policy, they will still have to take into effect expected result of a nuclear expolosion when they write that policy. Nothing changes that. Someone can go ahead and nuke the Taj and they will achieve squat. Nothing changes that. so it stands to reason that they will probably follow the methodology that Stuart attempted to explain, and in turn be prepared to deal with the same effects on their end. No more, no less

Stuart's targeting skills are something I am not capable of commenting on.

I was commenting only on his assumptions about New Nuclear Power (NNP).

This kind of patronizing attitude is so infuriating…General K. Sunderji

I am guessing what you are trying to say is that warfare is inevitable. that's true and that's why we prepare for it. It is also true that we try our best (through diplomatic means and otherwise) to not go down the path where we would actually have to fight one.

Unfortunately Diplomacy and War are events driven or reactionary.
What I think is that we perhaps require a process, with active involvement of the General populace.

Since you often quote Geeta, you would know how much effort the Pandavs put in to actually prevent a war.

Yes I agree. Advocacy of war for wars sake is stupidity and just another attachment (like Amanullah). I also am assuming that if we can increase the profits from war (in terms of removing/reducing the basis of future wars) then perhaps we can actually think clearly if the time does come.

I was thinking that my countrymen should have the benefit of realising what is at stake and how it can be best taken forward. Life is just a preparation for death and only to carryon the cycle further.

Trends dont entirely remove the chances of such a war.

 

[Blademaster]

Yea i am not nuclear/defence expert but i am only enthusiast about defence matters, nowhere i have claimed to have more knowlege about nuclear issues but i have just put some questions regarding these matters, anyhow i cannot go into major techniclaities simply coz of my restriced or no knowlege about political strategies but as a citizen of India i must show anxiety about these developements if they are not in right direction. My point is simple that India should test more thermonukes and boosted fission devices to improve the quality of our nuke arsenal and a making NFU policy more credible, today my doubts are confirmed by the statements made by our scientists that we should test thermonukes few times more and that is it. Developing nukes with 200-300kt range are on Indian agenda and these thermonukes are certianly meant for taking out chinese high value targets including beijing and shanghai and that is the fact not digestable to you because

You may be enthusiasic about defense matters but at least try to remain realistic. Military people are not in the business for fantasy games or mental masturbation.

 

[Blademaster]

who cares, the fact is we don't need very big nukes, we are not butchers, we will spare your Chinese cities from nukes we have compassion even on our enemies. just like after 1971 when we released over 93000 Pak POWs a day after the war. We will use our tactical small nukes for military installations, so your bases, naval stations, air forces bases will have our full nuke attention and not your cities. and since you guys are cowards we know you'll launch against our cities hence we are working on ballistic and cruise defense. but hey we'll get that covered by 2015, none of Chinese weapons will be any use against India. none. even our KALI 5000 would have been weaponized by then. chances are china falls victim of its own heavy megaton nukes. haha.. The fact is our brahmos 1 and 2 will wipe out most of PLAN, PLAAF, PLA.

Uhhhh... no. Time to get back to reality.

 

[Blademaster]

You are talking like Brigadier Amanullah now

I second that.

 

[Antimony]

who cares, the fact is we don't need very big nukes, we are not butchers, we will spare your Chinese cities from nukes we have compassion even on our enemies. just like after 1971 when we released over 93000 Pak POWs a day after the war. We will use our tactical small nukes for military installations, so your bases, naval stations, air forces bases will have our full nuke attention and not your cities. and since you guys are cowards we know you'll launch against our cities hence we are working on ballistic and cruise defense. but hey we'll get that covered by 2015, none of Chinese weapons will be any use against India. none. even our KALI 5000 would have been weaponized by then. chances are china falls victim of its own heavy megaton nukes. haha.. The fact is our brahmos 1 and 2 will wipe out most of PLAN, PLAAF, PLA.

John,

Do you know what tactical nukes are and how they are used? This is not a sarcastic question.

Here is a clue: we don't have any. Neither does China or Pakistan.

Here is a link for your reference.
http://se2.isn.ch/serviceengine/Fil...F-42A0-8DBA-EA7BBACE5812/en/08_Open+Forum.pdf
http://www.stimson.org/southasia/pdf/ESCCONTROLCHAPTER6.pdf

The links are not to agree or disagree with the view of the authors, but to understand what tactical nukes are and how they may be deployed and used