India's Air Defense System and its Capabilities

[Tanmay]

An interesting snap. Probably Akash SAM (3 missile non-cannister configuration). Not 100% sure sure. But its not Pune, Gwalior and the other 6 NE bases.
Rather a western base.
And AFAIK only 8 squadrons were ordered. 7 more are under negotiation.
Not Army Akash (IAF Long trailers)
Early 2017 date.

.

 

[Tanmay]

https://indianmilitaryenthusiast.blogspot.in/2018/02/indian-radar-coverage.html?m=1

I have consolidated all information in my new blog including the new Akash SAM site
Do suggest me changes and corrections. have posted sattellite pics too for easy reference.
I guess I will move on with Pakistani air defences now

 

[FOXBAT ALOK]

Akash Air-defense missile weapon system
http://indiandefencenews.info/akash-weapon-system/

 

[Tanmay]

Akash Air-defense missile weapon system
http://indiandefencenews.info/akash-weapon-system/

"Flight tests were conducted with deliverable production equipment of the Indian Army and Airforce demonstrating target interceptions at low altitude near boundary UAV and precision guided bomb SPICE 2000 earning the satisfaction of the users."
So PGMs taken care of

8 squadrons for IAF doesn't explain the 9th squadron spotted at a different IAF base :/
Army's huge Akash orders are surely a big morale booster for the industry.

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Army Set For VSHORAD Tender Negotiations
The Indian Army will soon begin contract negotiations in the multi-billion dollar deal for the very short-range air defence system or VSHORAD, after several retrials and delays due to certain non-compliances by the vendors from the given specifications.

“The activities relating to the Contract Negotiation Committee for the deal started in mid-February. The bids will be opened shortly to select the lowest bidder so as to begin cost negotiations,” a defence official was quoted as saying by The Hindu Sunday.

Before the bids are opened, a benchmark price will be set based on various factors, and the bids will be checked with it.

The Request for Information (RFI) was issued in 2010. Three companies made it to the trials — MBDA of France, Rosoboronexport of Russia and SAAB of Sweden.

“Three companies are in the contest, and all have been declared compliant after the re-trials held last year,” the official added.

The VSHORAD tender is intended for the Army and Navy and estimated over $5 bn for 5175 missiles and 1276 single and multi-launchers with stipulated technology transfer requirement for Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSU).

The system should have a maximum range of 6 km and an altitude of 3 km, besides all-weather capability. It will replace the IGLA.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=537073

 

[WolfPack86]

Finally all three companies vshorad passed trials.

 

[FOXBAT ALOK]

India successfully test-fires BrahMos with Indian made seeker
http://indiandefencenews.info/india-successfully-test-fires-brahmos-with-indian-made-seeker/

 

[tharun]

We need to consider C-ram seriously for the point protection rather than a manual ZU-23.

 

[Kshithij]

We need to consider C-ram seriously for the point protection rather than a manual ZU-23.

C-RAM is something like Iron dome of Israel. Why would you want India to get that? It is impossible to counter every rocket or artillery shell fired in large quantity. India can use weapons location radar and then target the location of weapons instead of using extremely expensive CRAM. It is easier to fire rockts but very expensive to have the seekers, guidance system to get a kinetic kill against an incoming rocket. Such system is worth only for BMD

 

[tharun]

C-RAM is something like Iron dome of Israel. Why would you want India to get that? It is impossible to counter every rocket or artillery shell fired in large quantity. India can use weapons location radar and then target the location of weapons instead of using extremely expensive CRAM. It is easier to fire rockts but very expensive to have the seekers, guidance system to get a kinetic kill against an incoming rocket. Such system is worth only for BMD

If you can't counter the threat our valuable infrastructure will be at risk like runways,fuel and ammunition dumps etc because these are the high priority targets for our enemy.
We already had air defence guns what we need to do is automate it rather than manning it
For point defense we need high rate of fire gun like 20mm gun and a long range bofors 40mm.
We need to defend our critical our infra first by all means.

 

[Tanmay]

If you can't counter the threat our valuable infrastructure will be at risk like runways,fuel and ammunition dumps etc because these are the high priority targets for our enemy.
We already had air defence guns what we need to do is automate it rather than manning it
For point defense we need high rate of fire gun like 20mm gun and a long range bofors 40mm.
We need to defend our critical our infra first by all means.

Unlike Israelis our airbases and dumps are located around 150 kms from major Paki air bases and around 100 km from border.
Such expensive systems are better for Israel which has critical infrastructure right across borders.
Akash and MRSAM can well counter all missile threats and PGMs. And soon QRSAM too.
AAA guns need to be automated though. Rheinmetal KDG could be a possible solution.
Or our own Atulya radar with Bofors L40

 

[Kshithij]

If you can't counter the threat our valuable infrastructure will be at risk like runways,fuel and ammunition dumps etc because these are the high priority targets for our enemy.
We already had air defence guns what we need to do is automate it rather than manning it
For point defense we need high rate of fire gun like 20mm gun and a long range bofors 40mm.
We need to defend our critical our infra first by all means.

Automated Air defence gun is called SAMs. The air defence gun is manually operated as it is a secondary defence after SAM. Akash SAM has a near 100% hit with the new seekers within 30km. If the Akash is kept near the border, then an impenetrable air defence can be established on Indian airspace. All cruise missiles and planes will be shot down in such cases.

About CRAM, it is meant to intercept rockets, Artillery and Mortar (RAM). These RAM are extremely cheap to manufacture and will almost always be launched in mass quantity. Artillery fire is generally in thousands a day, for example. We can't intercept 1000 artillery shell with 1000 CRAM missiles. Similarly, we can't intercept 1000 MRBL with CRAM missiles. RAM missile has advanced motors, radar guidance and sometimes even seekers which makes them very expensive. The ordinary rockets are like toy rockets and are very cheap.

The MRBL and Artillery are never pinpoint accurate and have a good amount of error. Even guided rockets have error of 1%. In addition, jamming all GPS signal will cut of the guidance. It is really very expensive to intercept such imprecise missiles with expensive and precise CRAM using kinetic kills.

 

[ash2win]

Automated Air defence gun is called SAMs.

Do you know the full form of SAM?

Clue: It have missile in it.

 

[tharun]

Unlike Israelis our airbases and dumps are located around 150 kms from major Paki air bases and around 100 km from border.
Such expensive systems are better for Israel which has critical infrastructure right across borders.
Akash and MRSAM can well counter all missile threats and PGMs. And soon QRSAM too.
AAA guns need to be automated though. Rheinmetal KDG could be a possible solution.
Or our own Atulya radar with Bofors L40

Pakis are acquiring the long range PGM's and MLRS from chinkis.
Yes our bases are 150km from their bases but how much distance from the border line itself?
Cost of SAM's are higher than the iron dome and automated air defence guns.
You can't stop long range MLRS with traditional SAM's, sooner or later you will run out of SAM's and puts everything at risk.
First of all read the content correctly ,i have talking about point defence.
Second stop using smileys.

 

[tharun]

Automated Air defence gun is called SAMs

Since when?

The air defence gun is manually operated as it is a secondary defence after SAM. Akash SAM has a near 100% hit with the new seekers within 30km. If the Akash is kept near the border, then an impenetrable air defence can be established on Indian airspace. All cruise missiles and planes will be shot down in such cases.

Ok Akash SAM will be used to protect from the aircraft and cruise missiles.
But who will protect bases from PGM's and MLRS?
You need point defence.

About CRAM, it is meant to intercept rockets, Artillery and Mortar (RAM). These RAM are extremely cheap to manufacture and will almost always be launched in mass quantity. Artillery fire is generally in thousands a day, for example. We can't intercept 1000 artillery shell with 1000 CRAM missiles. Similarly, we can't intercept 1000 MRBL with CRAM missiles. RAM missile has advanced motors, radar guidance and sometimes even seekers which makes them very expensive. The ordinary rockets are like toy rockets and are very cheap.

Yes you can't intercept all the artillery or mlrs but we should intercept few to protect our asses like our critical infra dumps,runways.
Imagine you let one bomb fall on runway and keeps all our planes from flying.
First go to youtube and watch iron dome videos.
We will protect only few critical infra.

The MRBL and Artillery are never pinpoint accurate and have a good amount of error. Even guided rockets have error of 1%. In addition, jamming all GPS signal will cut of the guidance. It is really very expensive to intercept such imprecise missiles with expensive and precise CRAM using kinetic kills.

How about dumb bombs and long range cheap mlrs?

 

[Kshithij]

Do you know the full form of SAM?

Clue: It have missile in it.

Since when?

Technically SAMS are missiles but in real world, missiles are used instead of automated guns. Automated guns to defend against missiles are used in certain naval ships - CIWS like Ak630. But, in land they are not really effective. Ships have space constraint and are also mobile which makes them use such CIWS,

Don't expect such guns on land

Ok Akash SAM will be used to protect from the aircraft and cruise missiles.
But who will protect bases from PGM's and MLRS?

PGM is launched from aircraft. As I said, Akash missiles are not placed near the installation but along the border to ensure the aircrafts don't even cross the border. PGM has a range of a maximum 80km. Hence the plane will be intercepted by Akash before it can release PGM

The MLRS can't be defended against as they are launched en masse. India has enough strategic depth to place its assets beyond the reach of MLRS and the runways are hardened to ensure minimum impact from bombs

You need point defence.
Yes you can't intercept all the artillery or mlrs but we should intercept few to protect our asses like our critical infra dumps,runways.
Imagine you let one bomb fall on runway and keeps all our planes from flying.
First go to youtube and watch iron dome videos.
We will protect only few critical infra.

How about dumb bombs and long range cheap mlrs?

The fuel dumps are all underground. Runways are generally hardened. Also, if Pakistan decides to bombard hundreds of artillery shells or MRBL rockets, there is very little India can do to defend. The best bet is to go on the offence. These artillery and rockets are never fired in small quantity. Israel faces a unique scenario where guerilla groups like HAMAS and Hezbollah keep attacking with small number of low quality rockets. That is unlikely to be the case anywhere else

 

[Tanmay]

Pakis are acquiring the long range PGM's and MLRS from chinkis.
Yes our bases are 150km from their bases but how much distance from the border line itself?
Cost of SAM's are higher than the iron dome and automated air defence guns.
You can't stop long range MLRS with traditional SAM's, sooner or later you will run out of SAM's and puts everything at risk.
First of all read the content correctly ,i have talking about point defence.
Second stop using smileys.

Akash has already demonstrated ability to shoot down Spice 2000 PGM.
Even MRSAM will be more than capable of doing this then.
Regarding
Already mentioned that our bases are around 100 km from border. ( Amritsar is just 40 km thorough. Ditto for Lahore )
QRSAM can help IAF to get an additional layer of protection for any miss from MRSAM/Akash.

Unlike Israeli situation where it's under attack 24x7x 365 from just across the wall, the western border is more of less a flat desert with good visibility. Difficult to amass MRLS and artillery without UAVs/ Satellites/ spy planes not picking up things, and army not responding immediately. As such our infra is spread out .
Regarding running out of SAMs , Phalanx CRAM has 1500 ammunition , fires at rate of 4500 per minute. Iron dome too has limited missiles like Akash.

Plus the pakis are already facing 3 Brahmos regiments of army and 2 squadrons( or atleast 1) of Brahmos of IAF. add to it Smerch and Pinakas. Mischief along Gujarat and Rajasthan can be spotted easily, but Punjab is difficult as it has highly populated areas( same is applicable for Pakistani Punjab). So response time will be low in Punjab .

Regarding critical infrastructure, QRSAM is being developed. Command Control facilities , Powerplants, dams etc can be. protected by them. The Spyder SAM have been inducted for this reason only , to protect command Control facilities.

 

[tharun]

PGM is launched from aircraft. As I said, Akash missiles are not placed near the installation but along the border to ensure the aircrafts don't even cross the border. PGM has a range of a maximum 80km. Hence the plane will be intercepted by Akash before it can release PGM

New PGM are having range excess of 100km.
If akash is placed along side of border it cannot withstand artillery.
To take care of aircraft we need S-400 to keep them at their bases akash can never do it.
If i was the enemy i will find the akash regiment near the border and bombard it with the artillery either it will be destroyed or it will get exhausted aka running out of missiles.

 

[Kshithij]

New PGM are having range excess of 100km.
If akash is placed along side of border it cannot withstand artillery.
To take care of aircraft we need S-400 to keep them at their bases akash can never do it.
If i was the enemy i will find the akash regiment near the border and bombard it with the artillery either it will be destroyed or it will get exhausted aka running out of missiles.

Akash will be kept about 30km from the border, not reachable by enemy artillery. 30km distance is because Akash has the no escape zone of 30km. Since the intention is to defend against instrusion, Akash at 30km from border will be able to kill any plane that enters the Indian border. We can't keep S400 type guns in large numbers everywhere as the missiles are very expensive.

Secondly, you must understand the sequences in a warfare. In modern war, the first wave will be missile launch. So, the first and foremost that that you can expect either countries to do is to launch salvos of missile. Hence, the idea of heavy artillery bombardment of crucial assets like SAMs won't be the first thing to be done. Doing small attacks like that will alert the opponent and make him attack with bigger force. That is also one of the reason why CRAM is not meaningful

 

[tharun]

Akash will be kept about 30km from the border, not reachable by enemy artillery. 30km distance is because Akash has the no escape zone of 30km. Since the intention is to defend against instrusion, Akash at 30km from border will be able to kill any plane that enters the Indian border. We can't keep S400 type guns in large numbers everywhere as the missiles are very expensive.

Pakis had 100km mlrs which is gifted by chinkis. And you want to keep the akash near border?
One big salvo will seal the fate of the division or regiment placed near border.