India's Air Defense System and its Capabilities

[Twinblade]

is there any plan for air defence corp modernization to include mobile long range sam like s-300/400?

Something called the VLRSAM is in works.
[tweet]479578340777422848[/tweet]

 

[Zebra]

France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi's defence sector vision

Tuesday, August 19, 2014
By : Hindustan Times

Weapon suppliers appear to be getting the drift of PM Narendra Modi's intentions to speed up defence indigenisation and transform the country from the world's biggest arms importer into an export powerhouse.

France has done the math to make a renewed pitch for a stalled Rs. 20,000-crore deal to co-develop a short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) — Maitri — in India, under a government-to-government programme. Negotiations for the project were completed in 2011.

It is learnt that France has conveyed to India that the proposed deal would have an export potential of Rs. 45,000 crore and 75% of the contract value would be plowed into the indigenous sector.

To be developed for the navy and air force, the 15-km range SR-SAM could be considered to provide multilayered air defence capability to Indian warships, including aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.

Vital air defence systems are missing on INS Kolkata and the Vikramaditya as the long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM), being co-developed with Israel, is not operational yet.

The French proposal reflects a rising acceptance among arms suppliers that India will ink big deals only if it helps bring in new technologies and build up indigenous capabilities.

India and the US appointed high-ranking officers to explore opportunities for co-development and co-production of state-of-the-art weapon systems during US defence Secretary Chuck Hagel's visit to New Delhi from August 7 to 9.

India spent Rs. 83,458 crore on importing weapons during the last three years, with the US emerging as the top supplier with orders worth Rs. 32,615 crore, followed by Russia (Rs 25,363 crore) and France (Rs 12,046 crore).

Defence News - France rejigs proposal to fit into PM Modi's defence sector vision

 

[Twinblade]

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, DRDO's prowess in the area of strategic missile systems is now accepted by even your worst detractors, but the same cannot be said about tactical missile systems yet. How would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: Major systems that have already been realized in the tactical domain include the Akash surface to air missile (SAM) which has gone into bulk production and recent trials from production lot conducted by the Indian Army (IA) have been quite successful. IA will induct this system shortly. The Indian Air force has of course already inducted the Akash.

Saurav Jha: So in that context what are some of the new tactical missile systems being developed under DRDO's recently unveiled 'missile autonomy mission?'

Avinash Chander: Our aim via the 'missile autonomy mission' is to cover a wider space as it were. Let me outline some of the new systems being progressed. A new man portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) for which design is over and hardware is getting developed. A Longer ranged SAM with a range of 200-250 km is on the drawing board. A quick reaction SAM which can track on move is well-advanced in the design stage.

Saurav Jha: Coming back to the Akash, is there a move to upgrade the Akash, with say the addition of an onboard seeker?

Avinash Chander: We are examining various options for Akash Mk-II so that it can operate over a larger profile. One of the options is putting a seeker on board. Of course it not simply a matter of adding a seeker since it changes the entire dynamics of the missile. Nevertheless we are looking at multiple options and are certainly working on a Mark 2 version of the Akash.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2976/65363/interview-with-dr-avinash-chander-drdo-chief-and-scientific-adviser-to-defence-minister.html

 

[power_monger]

The good news of the above interview was,

The development of missile seekers has been now considered a national mission and they have targetted next 3 years for development of seeker in all bands. - This was required as any sanctions on seeker technology could have absolutly halted various missile developments.
Astra might get inducted by 2015.- This missile was extensivly tested against air based targets earlier and now will undergo the same from sukhoi mki.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Even though not made for the purpose, can LRSAMs provide us some level of security against SRBMs? Just a curious question.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

is it possible to modify akaash missile system to be used on our destroyers and frigates ????

 

[Bheeshma]

No VLS and too heavy. Astra can fulfil the role of SRSAM on P-28 follow on and other smaller ships.

 

[sgarg]

Well reading on this topic since 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that the India has serious anti-aircraft defences when holdings of army and air force are counted together. However anti-missile capability is another matter. Defences against both cruise missiles and ballistic missiles are in development and testing. The deployment of such anti-missile capability is not available from reliable sources.

'Capability' refers to deployed weapons, we must come to a conclusion that India lacks serious anti-missile capability. When it does, we shall know as Google Earth will show us.

Anti-missile capability is very difficult and expensive proposition. So even when developed, it is going to be available in small pockets only (may be capital and 2-3 more cities). So its role in 'defending' the nation can not be considered important.

 

[ladder]

Successful Flight Testing of LR SAM Missile

Successful Flight Testing of LR SAM Missile | Business Standard News


:thumb:

 

[power_monger]

Anti-missile capability is very difficult and expensive proposition. So even when developed, it is going to be available in small pockets only (may be capital and 2-3 more cities). So its role in 'defending' the nation can not be considered important.

Well,your notion of Anti missile capability being very expensive is wrong. If ABM system is deisgned for Terminal phase,it become quite expensive as you need to have batteries of missiles stationed over a large distance.But if ABM system is designed for Mid course then it could be less expensive.Thats because Mid-course ABM happens at 100-600kms in atmosphere.4-5 batteries spread over entire India can be sufficient enough.But then again this is also the toughest to handle because of Decoys being thrown at ABM. Although missile will just be coasting during the phase and hence less manevarability and less speed.

India will probably have 4-6 batteries to handle Mid-course ABM capabilities and similar batteries for Strategic city protection for terminal phas like bangalore,delhi,mumbai etc.Even assuming all these cost,this should at max cost 5-6 billion$ which should not be a big issue for a country like India with 315Billion $ as forex reserve.

BTW, one Agni missile cost rs 50 crore in 2013 dec.Keeping that in mind AAD/PDV missiles definatly should be in range of 10 crores.

 

[sgarg]

@power_monger, can you list an inventory of equipment needed for ABM defence. Also what kind of missiles will this defend against?
As ballistic missiles are much cheaper than fighter aircraft, an enemy may build missiles in large quantities and fire dozens of missiles together. Please work out a scenario when dozens of actual missiles and decoys appear together, and how ABM defence will work.

 

[power_monger]

@power_monger, can you list an inventory of equipment needed for ABM defence. Also what kind of missiles will this defend against?
As ballistic missiles are much cheaper than fighter aircraft, an enemy may build missiles in large quantities and fire dozens of missiles together. Please work out a scenario when dozens of actual missiles and decoys appear together, and how ABM defence will work.

Ballistic missiles are designed to create large destruction.hence they carry Larger war heads.This inevitably increases the size of Ballistic missiles and hence fuel and cost increases.Like i Said earlier Agni 5 cost 50 crore a piece.On the other side ABM missiles are SAM missiles which just carry around 100Kg war head to destroy Ballistic missiles by either Proximaty fuse or Direct kill.They need to sharp and agile,hence they are generally sleek with a onboard seeker which is the costliest part.In any case cost of Ballistic missile to SAM missiles will be 5:1 or 4:1 cost ratio.Add the cost of using Canisterized vehicle to keep moving BM and the whole maintenance support compared to the Fixed location of ABM batteries. And current day seekers come with dual color seeker to identify missiles to a decoy by identifying the temperature difference. DRDO will test Dual color seeker in 2016 begning or 2015 end.

 

[Twinblade]

Saurav Jha's Blog : Indian Army Air Defence futures

Saurav Jha's article on Army Air Defence:

- IA has settled for wheeled launchers for Akash after experimenting with tracked launchers.
- Akash standard battery = 1 nos 3D CAR + 1 nos Rajendra 3D BLR + 1 nos BSR + 4 launchers (3 missiles each) and a c4 control center
- Akash autonomous mode = 1 additional BLR.
- Akash group mode = 4 batteries report to a C4I control center covering up to 5000 sq Kms.
- Army's RFI for MRSAM is dead, role filled in by Akash, many more orders for Akash expected.
- Akash 2 range 37 km, possibly with an active seeker.
- Sosna-R purchase likely to replace Strela (article unclear about the status)
- The QR-SAM procurement was supposed to be DRDO-MBDA maitri Vs Tor Vs SpyDer, but now Maitri is as good as dead. At present an indigenous QR-SAM is being pursued.
- IA considering upgrade of L-70, ZU-23-2B guns being offered by L&T and Punj Lloyd. BEL executing upgrased for ZSU-23-4 guns and Tunguska might get upgraded as well. The BEL upgrade will allow Shillka to be networked like Akash and Sosna-R.
- Several 3D-TCR derived from 3D-CAR of Akash ordered by the Army along with Bharani 2D low level radars.
- All systems will be linked to Air Defence Control and Reporting System (ADC & RS) developed by the DRDO, part of Tactical Command Control Communication and Intelligence (Tac3I) System developed for the IA by DRDO

 

[cobra commando]

^ [tweet]534033962436276224[/tweet]

 

[sgarg]

Ballistic missiles are designed to create large destruction.hence they carry Larger war heads.This inevitably increases the size of Ballistic missiles and hence fuel and cost increases.Like i Said earlier Agni 5 cost 50 crore a piece.On the other side ABM missiles are SAM missiles which just carry around 100Kg war head to destroy Ballistic missiles by either Proximaty fuse or Direct kill.They need to sharp and agile,hence they are generally sleek with a onboard seeker which is the costliest part.In any case cost of Ballistic missile to SAM missiles will be 5:1 or 4:1 cost ratio.Add the cost of using Canisterized vehicle to keep moving BM and the whole maintenance support compared to the Fixed location of ABM batteries. And current day seekers come with dual color seeker to identify missiles to a decoy by identifying the temperature difference. DRDO will test Dual color seeker in 2016 begning or 2015 end.

Russian Iskander costs half million dollars per piece. Chinese M9 and M11 that Pakistan has may cost less than Iskander.

The PAD missile cost is likely more than Prithvi missile (more than million USD per unit).

Even Akash missiles are not cheap. You can find out from figures publically available.

However PAD is needed for defence of large cities. It cannot be used everywhere though due to cost.

 

[power_monger]

Russian Iskander costs half million dollars per piece. Chinese M9 and M11 that Pakistan has may cost less than Iskander.

The PAD missile cost is likely more than Prithvi missile (more than million USD per unit).

Even Akash missiles are not cheap. You can find out from figures publically available.

However PAD is needed for defence of large cities. It cannot be used everywhere though due to cost.

Do you think Pak will afford to throw its missiles to bomb villages?It can't . It has to be big cities and strategic locations. Its a known fact that India will try to cover only those locations in ABM program. my request to you would be put in more effort in understanding our ABM program. you will realise its value once you get familiarise with our ABM program and its value.

 

[charlie]

Russian Iskander costs half million dollars per piece. Chinese M9 and M11 that Pakistan has may cost less than Iskander.

The PAD missile cost is likely more than Prithvi missile (more than million USD per unit).

Even Akash missiles are not cheap. You can find out from figures publically available.

However PAD is needed for defence of large cities. It cannot be used everywhere though due to cost.

Normally people do mistake by take out the cost of Anti-missile against the missile that has been fired, but that's not how it works.

For eg Hamas fires a katyusha rocket that cost around $3000 and Isreal uses Iron Dome which is around $50 to 90000 (I guess) to intercept Katyusha. Now do you think Isreal crazy to spend so much money ?

They actually figure out what that Katyusha rocket is going to damage for eg a Power station which is going to cost them millions if hit by a rocket because of it's down time and damage, so actually do not take the cost of the ABM but take the cost of devastation the enemy missile is going to make.

 

[sgarg]

Do you think Pak will afford to throw its missiles to bomb villages?It can't . It has to be big cities and strategic locations. Its a known fact that India will try to cover only those locations in ABM program. my request to you would be put in more effort in understanding our ABM program. you will realise its value once you get familiarise with our ABM program and its value.

I do not like to jump to conclusions. PAD is not yet there. There is no deployment of PAD anywhere so far. I know more than you about likely deployment of PAD but I shall remain silent on that issue.

You can safely assume that LRSAM being developed by DRDO/Israel will the SAM deployed in numbers.

 

[sgarg]

Normally people do mistake by take out the cost of Anti-missile against the missile that has been fired, but that's not how it works.

For eg Hamas fires a katyusha rocket that cost around $3000 and Isreal uses Iron Dome which is around $50 to 90000 (I guess) to intercept Katyusha. Now do you think Isreal crazy to spend so much money ?

They actually figure out what that Katyusha rocket is going to damage for eg a Power station which is going to cost them millions if hit by a rocket because of it's down time and damage, so actually do not take the cost of the ABM but take the cost of devastation the enemy missile is going to make.

There are many factors when deploying SAM. All I am trying to say is that some classes of offensive weapons are best countered by offensive weapons. Defensive weapons are not practical for all purposes.

Just the number of defence installations in the country exceeds 500. (defence installation means army base, airbase etc). A typical SAM battery runs into 100s million dollars. So just defending all military installations using SAM would be an expense in 100s of billion dollars.

There are 8000+ cities and towns in the country. So you can calculate the cost.

PAD will be used for VERY HIGH value strategic locations only.

 

[power_monger]

There are many factors when deploying SAM. All I am trying to say is that some classes of offensive weapons are best countered by offensive weapons. Defensive weapons are not practical for all purposes.

Just the number of defence installations in the country exceeds 500. (defence installation means army base, airbase etc). A typical SAM battery runs into 100s million dollars. So just defending all military installations using SAM would be an expense in 100s of billion dollars.

There are 8000+ cities and towns in the country. So you can calculate the cost.

PAD will be used for VERY HIGH value strategic locations only.

Sgarg,yes a typical SAM battery will cost in millions. Agreed. But what you do not realize is Exo-atmosphere Interceptors can cover wider region than Endo-atmospheric interceptors.

For example one Akash SAM defense system can at max cover a region of 25 Kms around the Strategic location. But where as PDV whose altitude range is 150 kms can easily provide protection of upto 120 kms area.
If you only had Akash SAM defense system,thousands of SAM batteries would be required there by increasing the cost hugly. But the Number of batteries required would get reduced drastically if you use PDV for exo-atmospheric interception. Once your SAM missile range increases,it requires less batteries to intercept incomming ballistic missiles there by reducing the cost of the whole ABM program exponentially.

This is our BMD program architecture.It includes
a) over the horizon and X-band fire control radars which detect and track the incoming missile
b) mission control centre (MCC) that fuses input(which may come from satellite based sensors also) processes it and sends orders for engagement to launch control centres
c) (LCCs) situated 1000 km away via mobile communication terminals (MCTs).
d) LCCs which orchestrate the final launch sequence with the mobile interceptor sitting nearby.

While point a) b) & c) have kind of static cost even when they are expensive,it is the point d) whose cost can reduced by having higher range SAM''s. In order to keep cost in control,BMD program will have multiple LCC's to cover most of India via exo atmospheric interceptors LCC's and will keep endo atmospheric interceptors LCC's only for selected few cities and strategic locations only.I Hope you are clear on the cost part of the BMD program.

Generally Exo-atmospheric interception is difficult as missiles can deploy decoys and jamming of signals can be attempted.US had identified 48 potential decoys for Exo-atmospheric intercpetion.But the intercpetion become even more difficult in Endo atmosphere because speed of the ballistic missile will be highest and they can also do maneouver missile incomming interceptiors(although ballist missiles cannot have much maneouvarability more than 5g in most cases) and there is a high risk of debris falling.

But our ABM program is only way where we can induce fear in pakistani minds about their first strike capability. Generall public sees ABM program as a program for complete protection.But Armies look it other way.It is a program which gives them a second striking capability to counter strike.which is why exactly India is develping ABM program

I hope i have cleared your doubts on ABM program.BTW,Strartegic location could be like Reliance jamnagar refinery. Government has already maintained Akash SAM over the refinery. cities could be metros and cities like bangalore with high concentration of defense related companies.