Indian Special Forces

[Kumaoni]

GWOT overcame and widened the gap considerably in terms of equipment and training pipelines and infrastructure, otherwise, dare I say us Indians ans Israelis were the top dogs getting regular exposure to both COIN ops and conventional wars.

As US winds down its overseas military commitment, I guess it'll fall back to the old status quo.

Unless US attacks Iran. That'll be a kick in the baby-makers.

Russia too. Chechens are no joke.

 

[ShoorVeer]

GWOT overcame and widened the gap considerably in terms of equipment and training pipelines and infrastructure, otherwise, dare I say us Indians ans Israelis were the top dogs getting regular exposure to both COIN ops and conventional wars.

As US winds down its overseas military commitment, I guess it'll fall back to the old status quo.

Unless US attacks Iran. That'll be a kick in the baby-makers.

Absolutely. And as they say neccessity is the mother of invention. The more they got involved into that, the more their equipment, tactics, way of working etc evolved. Pretty natural. And their MIC got good funding and support to keep pumping stuff out.

Now the focus shifts to China, we will see new tactics, equipment emerging to counter them. Interesting stuff for sure in the next decade.

 

[Anirbann Datta]

Just from a observer's pov should have had to put this question in Regular IA discussion thread though!)
while ppl here having feasting eyes over our SF guys with Westerner equipment, gear, plate carriers, etc etc,
some forget that our body structure is 5'10" ~+ to 6' give or take for even taller guys there with average body build but more leaner and faster. While Westerner SF guys looks like 6'3 " to 6'6" hulk with way wider body with higher muscle mass but bulkier build!!
Frankly speaking our regular or some more specialised guys look like turtle protruding it's head from it's shell with those things !!!
Read some where in forum that Indian body structure build specific items are on R&D menu, any update on that?

 

[Waanar]

Russia too. Chechens are no joke.

But Russia was failing and crashing where we succeeded. The first Chechen war was a disaster politically (not necessarily militarily) but I'd say the late 90s Russian military was the weakest Russian military in the history of Russian military to have ever military'd.
I'll end up going off on a tangent here so... Let's avoid OT stuff and stick to Indian SOF.

Absolutely. And as they say neccessity is the mother of invention. The more they got involved into that, the more their equipment, tactics, way of working etc evolved. Pretty natural. And their MIC got good funding and support to keep pumping stuff out.

Now the focus shifts to China, we will see new tactics, equipment emerging to counter them. Interesting stuff for sure in the next decade.

This is the new cold war.
US doesn't have the balls to attack China head on.
Kinetically, while the US is training it's island hopping capability and subterranean warfare, it's just an afterthought. The current development will focus more or less on intelligence.
Spy planes, satellites, ELINT, SIGINT etc. That is till Chinese economy collapses. The thing here is, US is now in remission. It spread, it invaded and it damaged but you can not do that forever. US military has seen it's best days.
Now, it's back to the woodland BDU era for them.

I pray those uber*ucks don't start focusing on biowarfare though.
F*ck that.

 

[Kumaoni]

This is the new cold war.
US doesn't have the balls to attack China head on.
Kinetically, while the US is training it's island hopping capability and subterranean warfare, it's just an afterthought. The current development will focus more or less on intelligence.

Ching Chong China doesn’t have the guts to take Taiwan*

The America that China backed down from was culturally at its weakest, I can only fathom what the Chongs would do if america wasn’t woke anymore

 

[Kumaoni]

Also @Waanar many failed where we succeeded. When it comes to mountain warfare, it’s Indian army.

 

[abingdonboy]

Major Jacob actually says that we aren't just at par but we are superior to other SF's.

He says that American SF's carry along mineral water with them and that they aren't capable of doing missions that last for days in bad terrain. American SF's do well in short missions where they have help from technology.

I can kinda see his point tbh

Utter BS and sadly is just showing his ignorance. Should read some of the accounts of the missions NATO SFs were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If one wanted to be unkind one could say all Indian SF have gone up against in recent decades are som poorly fed/trained jihadis/leftist insurgents. Iraq and Afghanistan saw 100+ KG IEDs, mortar attacks, RPGs and MANPAD threats to helos etc etc not to mention being the tip of the spear for the invasion of 2 countries. Even in Kargil PARA SF took little more of a role than the rest of the infantry

 

[abingdonboy]

Pisses me off to no end that foreign troops were allowed to conduct any operation in our land.

Should've been lead to a minefield and just went "oops, must've been the pesky terrorists" while returning their dead bodies.
I have nothing against Europeans but I HATE the idea of allowing their troops to do anything here other than train.

Whose fault is that? What does it say about Indian leadership and the faith they have in their SFs if they are open to letting foreign units do such things?

herein lies the issue as to why Indian SF are not strategic tools- because they aren’t viewed as such

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

Utter BS and sadly is just showing his ignorance. Should read some of the accounts of the missions NATO SFs were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If one wanted to be unkind one could say all Indian SF have gone up against in recent decades are som poorly fed/trained jihadis/leftist insurgents. Iraq and Afghanistan saw 100+ KG IEDs, mortar attacks, RPGs and MANPAD threats to helos etc etc not to mention being the tip of the spear for the invasion of 2 countries. Even in Kargil PARA SF took little more of a role than the rest of the infantry

9 Para was called in to clear only the Zulu top where else would you used them? Also to the point of Jihadis and Leftist you need to know how wild the 90s and early 2000s were. Comparing the two insurgencies will be apple and oranges but you are frustrated/ignorant to understand a opposing pov so let it be.

 

[OFBkaRakhwala]

Whose fault is that? What does it say about Indian leadership and the faith they have in their SFs if they are open to letting foreign units do such things?

herein lies the issue as to why Indian SF are not strategic tools- because they aren’t viewed as such

Letting foreign units do what they do is more of a political leaderships choice and not a strategic or tactical one. They might have given diplomatic relations more weightage while allowing them.

 

[abingdonboy]

Letting foreign units do what they do is more of a political leaderships choice and not a strategic or tactical one. They might have given diplomatic relations more weightage while allowing them.

That’s just my point backwards- Indian SF aren’t treated as apex assets because Indian leadership are tactically illiterate and with a tendency to bend over for the rest of the world. SAS are treated as the PM’s action arm, ditto JSOC (even more so) for POTUS. How many Indian PMs even know what SF is meant to do? How many layers are there between a SF battalion and civilian executives?


+You get the politicians you deserve.

 

[Whatever]

Utter BS and sadly is just showing his ignorance. Should read some of the accounts of the missions NATO SFs were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If one wanted to be unkind one could say all Indian SF have gone up against in recent decades are som poorly fed/trained jihadis/leftist insurgents. Iraq and Afghanistan saw 100+ KG IEDs, mortar attacks, RPGs and MANPAD threats to helos etc etc not to mention being the tip of the spear for the invasion of 2 countries. Even in Kargil PARA SF took little more of a role than the rest of the infantry

The same poorly fed/trained jihadis were used by Pakistan in Afghanistan.
Same pakis train them before having them infiltrate so how is this different?
Many Indian abduls rise up to high ranks in Al Qaeda and ISIS.

Now US forces had the leverage to raze places to the ground without concern of "human rights violations", call in air support, use everything at their disposal.
There are many combat footage of Afghanistan available, you wouldn't call it tactical, quick anti terrorism operations.

Indian forces can't do that in Kashmir, you can't open fire in a market, you can't call in air support, you can't go on nading houses,
markets in Kashmir are full of people not barren desert like in Afghanistan, you wouldn't even know when you would be ambushed. Jihadis here dress up as civilians and hide AKs inside firan or dress up in camo to ambush.

 

[Whatever]

That’s just my point backwards- Indian SF aren’t treated as apex assets because Indian leadership are tactically illiterate and with a tendency to bend over for the rest of the world. SAS are treated as the PM’s action arm, ditto JSOC (even more so) for POTUS. How many Indian PMs even know what SF is meant to do? How many layers are there between a SF battalion and civilian executives?


+You get the politicians you deserve.

Can agree with this.

 

[Kumaoni]

The same poorly fed/trained jihadis were used by Pakistan in Afghanistan.
Same pakis train them before having them infiltrate so how is this different?
Many Indian abduls rise up to high ranks in Al Qaeda and ISIS.

Now US forces had the leverage to raze places to the ground without concern of "human rights violations", call in air support, use everything at their disposal.
There are many combat footage of Afghanistan available, you wouldn't call it tactical, quick anti terrorism operations.

Indian forces can't do that in Kashmir, you can't open fire in a market, you can't call in air support, you can't go on nading houses,
markets in Kashmir are full of people not barren desert like in Afghanistan, you wouldn't even know when you would be ambushed. Jihadis here dress up as civilians and hide AKs inside firan or dress up in camo to ambush.

Lol I love how he thinks that ISI backed Mujahideen were poorly trained but ISIS fighters with 0 political backing were some monsters hahaha. Btw, I already posted about when Lashkar militants nearly overran a USA post.

 

[Kumaoni]

Why Kashmir's new militancy is harder to defeat than the one in 1990s (theprint.in)

Good article for those ignorant on the insurgency, in the 1990s, the cadre India faced and 8:1ed and slaughtered wholesale were basically Soviet-Afghan war veteran cadres, many of whom trained alongside and even fought the red army in Afghanistan. Unless you think Taliban with rusted AKs in the 2010s was superior to Mujahideen which had the full backing and training of the CIA, ISI and used hardcore guerilla tactics, the reason India suffers less casualties now is because of the way it severely weakened militant groups like these. Harkat, Jaish, Lashkar, etc don't even operate under their original umbrella, but have merged to found groups like "TRF" and "PAFF"

 

[Kumaoni]

except the french military.

The only competent military in Europe is the UK, that's all I'm willing to concede

 

[abingdonboy]

The only competent military in Europe is the UK, that's all I'm willing to concede

France is arguably the most capable full spectrum military after the US. They have the ability to operate independently from NATO, the U.K. has no such capability anymore. Look up France’s recent exploits in Africa. They actually maintain conventional might unlike most of Europe,, the U.K. has maybe 30 MBT operational as of today.

 

[Kumaoni]

France is arguably the most capable full spectrum military after the US. They have the ability to operate independently from NATO, the U.K. has no such capability anymore. Look up France’s recent exploits in Africa. They actually maintain conventional might unlike most of Europe,, the U.K. has maybe 30 MBT operational as of today.

If we go by operational history, Britian performed well both in Iraq and Afghanistan, alongside its senior, the USA. France, otoh, not to sure of, some links would prove helpful.

 

[abingdonboy]

If we go by operational history, Britian performed well both in Iraq and Afghanistan, alongside its senior, the USA. France, otoh, not to sure of, some links would prove helpful.

Who said that? In Iraq the British were left with a minor town to police (Basra) which quickly descended into chaos once they pulled out. Similarly the British forces were tasked with securing Helmand which they failed to do and they had to ask the USMC to come in and sweep the Taliban out of the area. This had created a lot of tension at the time where US commanders were incredibly frustrated with British tactics and conservatism

WikiLeaks - TIME

The latest batch of cables released by WikiLeaks shows U.S. and Afghan officials criticizing the work of British troops in Helmand province. As British support for the war declines, will the revelations put pressure on leaders to bring troops home early?

content.time.com

UK forces in Helmand 'made mess of things': WikiLeaks

US and Afghan officials slammed British troops over their efforts in the restive Helmand province of Afghanistan, accusing them of making "a mess of things," in cables revealed by WikiLeaks.

www.smh.com.au

Look up France’s exploits in Mali and Niger (France effectively single handily prevented Mali’s capital from falling to Islamic caliphate wannabes) . When US Green berets were ambushed it was a French SOF thar got their first

 

[Kumaoni]

Who said that? In Iraq the British were left with a minor town to police (Basra) which quickly descended into chaos once they pulled out. Similarly the British forces were tasked with securing Helmand which they failed to do and they had to ask the USMC to come in and sweep the Taliban out of the area. This had created a lot of tension at the time where US commanders were incredibly frustrated with British tactics and conservatism

WikiLeaks - TIME

The latest batch of cables released by WikiLeaks shows U.S. and Afghan officials criticizing the work of British troops in Helmand province. As British support for the war declines, will the revelations put pressure on leaders to bring troops home early?

content.time.com

UK forces in Helmand 'made mess of things': WikiLeaks

US and Afghan officials slammed British troops over their efforts in the restive Helmand province of Afghanistan, accusing them of making "a mess of things," in cables revealed by WikiLeaks.

www.smh.com.au

Look up France’s exploits in Mali and Niger (France effectively single handily prevented Mali’s capital from falling to Islamic caliphate wannabes) . When US Green berets were ambushed it was a French SOF thar got their first

Interesting stuff. Reminds me of when Para SF prevented a Maldivian coup. France has definitely, as a country, improved militarily since the 20th century, from gettinf taken down easily by Nazi Germany to these wonderful Operations.