Indian Special Forces (archived)

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

4 seem to have built up quite a reputation also in a short span of time


don’t know what is achieved by creating a ‘vs’ discussion. Any soldier respects another soldier and this goes for SF operators just as much if not more. MARCOs and PARA (SF) are on the same side but they have different roles and specialisations. If an oil rig is taken over who are you going to call? If you need a cross border op via land insertion, who will be used?

the lack of MARCOs’ employment and experience isn’t the fault of the unit or their operators but becuase until now they have firmly been in the grip of their service HQ (same story with Garuds) and why would the navy HQ see any interest in sending their assets to fight the ‘army’s war’ in the north/NE?

this mentality is why a SOCOM is needed- take SF assets out of the hands of the conventional C&C and use these specialists assets as just that. Before US SOCOM SEALS were largely relegated to maritime ops too, after it came into existence they started to focus more on land warfare and the GOT has seen them employed in this role almost as much as their army counterparts

Anyway, the AFSOD experiment is on and if/when this gets expanded into a SOCOM it will still take a long many years to see the fruits.


SIU

In the first paragraph you say there should be a jointness and then in the second paragraph you go on to say that why should Navy fight Army's war?

What should i reply to you for this comment?Bro you are not being what your were these days..dont mind.


Secondly,SOCOM will not change anything.

Its like saying NSG will change how para sf trains its operators.

Nothing changed in Para after NSG was born in the mid 80s.

To change things you need jointness in the training,grooming and then deployment.

picking 100 sunny deols from each sf will not change the ethos of the unit.

 

[abingdonboy]

n the first paragraph you say there should be a jointness and then in the second paragraph you go on to say that why should Navy fight Army's war?

I said that is the day scenario- today SFs are under their respective service HQs, SOCOM takes them outside of that C&C and focuses on the missions they are given.

Secondly,SOCOM will not change anything.

SOCOM changes everything with all due respect. It frees these units of neglect and misuse to a large degree, obviously this depends on what missions the INSOCOM would be tasked with and will take many many years of finetuning and re-organisation and they’ve only started with baby steps ( AFSOD, not even a full fledged command).

picking 100 sunny deols from each sf will not change the ethos of the unit.

the ethos of the unit is the ethos of the unit, you can’t change this from top level decree, it needs to happen at a CO and below level and takes a long time to nurture but part of that will be influenced by mission profile and employment- SOCOM will change this.

QUOTE="COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, post: 1739040, member: 22343"]
Its like saying NSG will change how para sf trains its operators.

Nothing changed in Para after NSG was born in the mid 80s.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t see the link. NSG being raises didn’t interfere with PARA SF’s C&C in the slightest. I’m not saying SOCOM will change the individual units’ training, listen to US SFs, even though they have a SOCOM there’s not a huge amount of cross-training that goes on (joint Ops are more common though) its all about EMPLOYMENT has MANDATE.Being under a dedicated SF command makes a huge difference.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I said that is the day scenario- today SFs are under their respective service HQs, SOCOM takes them outside of that C&C and focuses on the missions they are given.


SOCOM changes everything with all due respect. It frees these units of neglect and misuse to a large degree, obviously this depends on what missions the INSOCOM would be tasked with and will take many many years of finetuning and re-organisation and they’ve only started with baby steps ( AFSOD, not even a full fledged command).




the ethos of the unit is the ethos of the unit, you can’t change this from top level decree, it needs to happen at a CO and below level and takes a long time to nurture but part of that will be influenced by mission profile and employment- SOCOM will change this.

QUOTE="COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, post: 1739040, member: 22343"]
Its like saying NSG will change how para sf trains its operators.

Nothing changed in Para after NSG was born in the mid 80s.

I don’t see the link. NSG being raises didn’t interfere with PARA SF’s C&C in the slightest. I’m not saying SOCOM will change the individual units’ training, listen to US SFs, even though they have a SOCOM there’s not a huge amount of cross-training that goes on (joint Ops are more common though) its all about EMPLOYMENT has MANDATE.Being under a dedicated SF command makes a huge difference.
[/QUOTE]

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I know the theory bro..but this is not US.

Here the Army and AF cant even agree to share attack helos together and make different orders.

Having born in Army family and knowing many many AF pilots of all backgrounds personally and few Naval pilots i have a very big doubt of the jointness in India.

This is the problem with some members here that they are either following US or UK model too much or they relate to western psychology here.

That is why if you grow in a country like India you know that even the local police and central police dont have jointness and you are talking about a Special Force.


I say again IF..Training-Grooming-Deployment..is not done with jointness from the ground up nothing changes for sunny deols.

All the best..thanks for the revision on the theory.

 

[abingdonboy]

I don’t see the link. NSG being raises didn’t interfere with PARA SF’s C&C in the slightest. I’m not saying SOCOM will change the individual units’ training, listen to US SFs, even though they have a SOCOM there’s not a huge amount of cross-training that goes on (joint Ops are more common though) its all about EMPLOYMENT has MANDATE.Being under a dedicated SF command makes a huge difference.
-------------------------------------------
I know the theory bro..but this is not US.

Here the Army and AF cant even agree to share attack helos together and make different orders.

Having born in Army family and knowing many many AF pilots of all backgrounds personally and few Naval pilots i have a very big doubt of the jointness in India.

This is the problem with some members here that they are either following US or UK model too much or they relate to western psychology here.

That is why if you grow in a country like India you know that even the local police and central police dont have jointness and you are talking about a Special Force.


I say again IF..Training-Grooming-Deployment..is not done with jointness from the ground up nothing changes for sunny deols.

All the best..thanks for the revision on the theory.

So things are, so they always will be? There’s no joint helicopter command hence why you see the conflict. Similar things happen in the US too, US army and Air Force in the 60s/70s fighting over helos and fixed wing, continues every now and then.

SOCOM will change their way that Indian SF operate and are commanded entirely, there will still be a rivalry but there won’t be this short sighted misuse as there is currently.

it hasn’t even been tried out so it’s too early to be writing it off

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

So things are, so they always will be? There’s no joint helicopter command hence why you see the conflict. Similar things happen in the US too, US army and Air Force in the 60s/70s fighting over helos and fixed wing, continues every now and then.

SOCOM will change their way that Indian SF operate and are commanded entirely, there will still be a rivalry but there won’t be this short sighted misuse as there is currently.

it hasn’t even been tried out so it’s too early to be writing it off

Sorry bro but werent you saying the same thing in pdf a decade ago and i told you to not expect much in modernization.

What happened?

You wish soo good for everything that you are disappointed in the end and you end up being frustrated by everyday SF pics from 2020.

As far as Attack helicopters are concerned AGAIN you bring US example.

Which US command has so less attack helis like IA?

In some mission profiles you need double the number IA will have atleast to carry out the mission plus availability issue.

How do you see the current scheme of things like the great U S A?(your favourite example)

 

[abingdonboy]

Sorry bro but werent you saying the same thing in pdf a decade ago and i told you to not expect much in modernization.

What happened?

You wish soo good for everything that you are disappointed in the end and you end up being frustrated by everyday SF pics from 2020.

As far as Attack helicopters are concerned AGAIN you bring US example.

Which US command has so less attack helis like IA?

In some mission profiles you need double the number IA will have atleast to carry out the mission plus availability issue.

How do you see the current scheme of things like the great U S A?(your favourite example)

If the trajectory had continued, I didn’t foresee IA SF stagnating after around 2010/11

but at that time INSOCOM was still a distant dream, AFSOD is a step in that direction- context matters so the situation it different today in that sense.

again, SOCOM is more Important in terms of employment than equipment- equipment will come when there’s more specialisation and professionalism seen in the SF community which will result from a SOCOM.

On the helicopter point, IA will go from 0 attack helicopters in 2010 to about 250 (Apache, LCH and Rudra) in 2030ish, the IAF will have a very similar number ironically.

 

[Edyk12]

Nice......

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[Unknowncommando 2]

Carl Gustaf M4
PARA SF

 

[Waanar]

Carl Gustaf M4
PARA SF
View attachment 56372

COMTACS!!
India Superpowa 2030!!!

 

[Tactical Doge]

Carl Gustaf M4
PARA SF
View attachment 56372

I see ear protection finally

 

[tusharfoxtrot]

Carl Gustaf M4
PARA SF
View attachment 56372

Don't you think he is very thin? I see most soldiers are thin in indian army and sf also. Why?

 

[aghamarshana]

Don't you think he is very thin? I see most soldiers are thin in indian army and sf also. Why?

Genetics and traditional food, perhaps. Most people in the subcontinent militaries are lean compared to European origin males in various national armies who are bulky built (high protein/fat rich diet for Gens). Exception being, Israelis too are lean/athletic (by European standards) than their western counterparts. Maybe a reason for the endurance levels of our soldiers(Indian subcontinent) who routinely excel at LRP competitions like Cambrian Patrol, WPM etc.
And I don't mean to generalise, it is merely an observation. I might be wrong.

 

[Waanar]

Don't you think he is very thin? I see most soldiers are thin in indian army and sf also. Why?

Doctrinal difference.
Where other western militaries will infiltrate with ATVs, IFVs or small birds, our guy ruck.

Purely nature of work.
Muscle weighs you down, so does fat.
This is also far better to prevent capture and/or evade enemies in overbearing hostile environment (Surgical strike) where you cannot access any exfil vehicle like helis which will get shot down.
Some of the more stationary units like NSG and SWATs can afford to have heavy build men but not these guys. They need to keep running.

 

[Mangal]

Don't you think he is very thin? I see most soldiers are thin in indian army and sf also. Why?

Just an observation...on an average the built of Indian soldiers has improved over the years. Just go through the original Indian counter terrorism thread started by kunal biswas and compare them with current pictures. The difference is quite evident.

 

[tusharfoxtrot]

Genetics and traditional food, perhaps. Most people in the subcontinent militaries are lean compared to European origin males in various national armies who are bulky built (high protein/fat rich diet for Gens). Exception being, Israelis too are lean/athletic (by European standards) than their western counterparts. Maybe a reason for the endurance levels of our soldiers(Indian subcontinent) who routinely excel at LRP competitions like Cambrian Patrol, WPM etc.
And I don't mean to generalise, it is merely an observation. I might be wrong.

Will this body type be effective in hand to hand combat

 

[aghamarshana]

Just an observation...on an average the built of Indian soldiers has improved over the years. Just go through the original Indian counter terrorism thread started by kunal biswas and compare them with current pictures. The difference is quite evident.

Yes. Due to improved quality of life, financial levels of the grassroots of the society-villages, from where most of the soldiers hail from. It is true that we had serious nutritional deficiency prob for decades. Still, we always get the best, fittest bunch of volunteers into the forces. And it improves in future.
That said, jus like all fingers aren't alike, humanity is so diverse it comes in all shapes and sizes. More so for a nation like India where not even two extreme states have people with similar physical structure eg, Haryana and Mizoram et cetera unlike western nations which more or less are homogeneous.

 

[aghamarshana]

Will this body type be effective in hand to hand combat

Training and timing is everything.
But yes, lean implies flexible & swift. I have seen many a timed lean guys take down and pin a comparatively bulk person who practice martial arts. But unlike a timed match this is implementation of skills in a hostile environ.
So, I strongly believe it all boils down to one's muscle memory and timing. And our guys despite being lean, can survive anywhere.

 

[TheSaffron]

In this latest video, Major Vivek Jacob talks about going into probation twice. Once for the 9 Para SF and while he doesn't expressly name it, he can be heard making indirect allusions regarding the extreme toughness required in the second probation. He says he was 32 at the time of his second probation. Everyone knows what he was talking about. It is that which exists but must not be named. BTW, he says that his second probation lasted for about 3 months, in a hilly terrain, with 100% humidity. Any guesses where it could be?

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Carl Gustaf M4
PARA SF
View attachment 56372

These things come with laser guidance munitions these days capable of hitting as far as 3000 meters

 

[ManhattanProject]

COMTACS!!
India Superpowa 2030!!!

you sure? are they electronic, cant tell!