Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Kunal Biswas]

Pampore encounter..

 

[Imaxxx]

Pampore encounter..

Which weapon is that in the gypsy?

 

[Chinmoy]

Which weapon is that in the gypsy?

Thats TAVOR........

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[delta]

why do most SF operators have their trigger finger bared? you can see them in pics where they're wearing gloves, but the index finger is usually bare.
is it a propensity of commandos to have a bare-hands feel of the gun or something?

 

[Anirbann Datta]

Is that HK-417D?

-30.........................0

 

[pmaitra]

If NSG is doing CI then who is left doing CT/HRT - IMO the same unit cannot do both. Completely different Tactics, Training, and equipment.

COIN and CT/HRT is are two completely different Beasts. HRT, GIGN, GSG-9 are not going to be deployed to Iraq, Syria anytime soon

You are correct. NSG is trained in their own way. On the other hand, NSG is trained to operate in urbanized locations. An infantry unit is not the best option in this case. In the case of the recent attacks in Pampore, you will see it is a pretty built up area. So, NSG is not entirely inappropriate.

I would go to the extent and say that CISF would be much better trained than a regular infantry unit in urban warfare.

COIN is not limited to jungles. In J&K, you have forests, but you also have built up areas. Moreover, at times of need, you have to throw in what you have at hand. During the early days of the insurgency (circa. 1989), JKP and BSF were thrown in to tackle the tangos. BSF was trained in FN-FALs and Sterlings, were thrown in battle, and many had to use Kalashnikovs, oftentimes recycled.

 

[pmaitra]

why do most SF operators have their trigger finger bared? you can see them in pics where they're wearing gloves, but the index finger is usually bare.
is it a propensity of commandos to have a bare-hands feel of the gun or something?

Many people prefer wooden furniture over modern polymer furniture because apparently wood gives a better feel in the hand and soaks up sweat (not sure how much of that is true).

 

[rkhanna]

COIN is not limited to jungles. In J&K, you have forests, but you also have built up areas. Moreover, at times of need, you have to throw in what you have at hand. During the early days of the insurgency (circa. 1989), JKP and BSF were thrown in to tackle the tangos. BSF was trained in FN-FALs and Sterlings, were thrown in battle, and many had to use Kalashnikovs, oftentimes recycled.

COIN and CT/HRT has zero to do with terrain but nature of threat. NSG is not entirely equipped to fight its way into a building with IED's, RCLs, RPGs in the mix. The Army is not entirely equiped to make a dynamic entry and make non lethal decisions (i.e. Hostage Rescue)

From What i have heard JK SOG / RR Cdo Units should be first responders in yesterdays senario. They are trained and equipped and experienced likewise

Many people prefer wooden furniture over modern polymer furniture because apparently wood gives a better feel in the hand and soaks up sweat (not sure how much of that is true).

And you just described the primary reason why Wooden Furniture is the worst thing to have on a fire arm (even more so for sniper rifles)

Wood - by soaking up moisture/heat/humidity (whether dew, sweat, rain, etc) will expand and contract. This seriously unbalances the weapon. And very quickly you will find the Zero of such weapons changing.

IMO the primary reason our soldiers have open figures it because its easier to judge the slack on the trigger. Woolen gloves mess with you sensation. Tactical shooting gloves however are designed to prevent this sensation delta.

Also, probably more important - alot of the gloves our soliders use are improvised - I.e not tactical shooting gloves but a mix match of Liftting, Motorbike, woollen gloves they get on the open market. The exposed fingers prevent slippage if there is any.

You already see such Tactical Gloves with NSG, Garud, Para SF etc. However dont think our soldiers are yet 100% attuned to training with them yet hence don't deploy with them yet.

PS - if anybody has done any sustained shooting you will know how key the gloves are. just laying it out there that Shooting Gloves are not "gucci gear"

 

[Navnit Kundu]

@pmaitra @rkhanna I think we are missing out the key point here, that even if some species of wood are susceptible to absorbing moisture, most modern applications where wood is used has a triple coat of primer, resin, paint/varnish, so that is going to be an impediment to absorption. So it is still a mystery why wood is still used, but given that it is used, despite the availability of options like hard vulcanized (heavy rubber/plastic)/ carbon fiber, metals, there must be some reason. Even table tennis bats have open wood on the grip, but cricket bats have a rubber cover.

This has generic information, nothing specific. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_(firearms)

According to Reddit, wood, being a bad conductor of heat, prevents the stock from heating up and makes it easier to handle the gun.

One could ask, why not synthetic materials? well, this has probably got more to do with economics than metallurgy. Any organization will be obliged to opt for a more readily available, cheaper raw material, especially if a product needs to be mass manufactured, to benefit from the economy of scale.

 

[rkhanna]

@pmaitra @rkhanna I think we are missing out the key point here, that even if some species of wood are susceptible to absorbing moisture, most modern applications where wood is used has a triple coat of primer, resin, paint/varnish, so that is going to be an impediment to absorption. So it is still a mystery why wood is still used, but given that it is used, despite the availability of options like hard vulcanized (heavy rubber/plastic)/ carbon fiber, metals, there must be some reason. Even table tennis bats have open wood on the grip, but cricket bats have a rubber cover.

lol Agree OT but..

Last 15 years has greatly changed the way Synthetics are worked into modern fire arms. ALMOST ZERO modern military grade weapons (sniper) have wood furnishings anymore.

Wood Sags - Any and ALL kinds of wood. It changes the center of gravity of a weapon.

For what its worth. The above explanation that I gave to you was given to me in 2002 by a USMC Small arms Instructor while i went about my merry way earning a Boy Scout Shooting Badge.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

lol Agree OT but..

Last 15 years has greatly changed the way Synthetics are worked into modern fire arms. ALMOST ZERO modern military grade weapons (sniper) have wood furnishings anymore.

Wood Sags - Any and ALL kinds of wood. It changes the center of gravity of a weapon.

For what its worth. The above explanation that I gave to you was given to me in 2002 by a USMC Small arms Instructor while i went about my merry way earning a Boy Scout Shooting Badge.

Apples and oranges, my [edited]. Infantry soldiers are not snipers. The latter gets all the specialist equipment.

 

[aditya g]

Was reading thru some material from Operation Peace (SF raid into Myanmar).

Found this tit bit:

In 1995, a team from 1 Para (Special Forces) was sent into Bangladesh to hit insurgent camps operating out of Sylhet district.

I think Doval biggest achievement is to ensure that we officially acknowledge the operations. This publicity establishes deterrence and doubts in the mind of India's enemy that they cannot go scot free.

 

[Bornubus]

Somewhere on LAC - Arunachal Pradesh

 

[rkhanna]

Apples and oranges, my [edited]. Infantry soldiers are not snipers. The latter gets all the specialist equipment.

Actually substandard Raw Materials to make rifles can play Havoc in a sustained fire fight. - Specially if the rifles have been issued over a long period of time.

If you Rifles center is off then you will simply end up spending way more ammo killing a target than needed.

If you wood/Fiber/Composite is crap it will break done with extreme heat / cold is applied to it.

Wars are won and lost on the little details.

 

[pmaitra]

@rkhanna & @Navnit Kundu,

It is true that having exposed fingers gives a better feel of the slack. Gloves with exposed fingers are called glovelettes. Many motorcyclists also use glovelettes. Weightlifters also use glovelettes. In cold weather, one has to use a proper glove with the fingers covered.

Preference for wooden furniture seems to be a matter of originality for some, feel for some, and for some, it is about availability of raw materials. For some people, it is just a preference. Personally, I like wooden furniture, because I like the feel of it.

Wooden furniture usually has several layers of resin or similar substances. They are not likely to swell and one look at the average furniture (foregrip etc.) of a Kalashnikov, there are two separate wooden pieces. it can hardly bend the barrel. Moreover, it is not so easy for wood to expand and bend the alloys used for making barrels.

 

[pmaitra]

COIN and CT/HRT has zero to do with terrain but nature of threat. NSG is not entirely equipped to fight its way into a building with IED's, RCLs, RPGs in the mix. The Army is not entirely equiped to make a dynamic entry and make non lethal decisions (i.e. Hostage Rescue)

From What i have heard JK SOG / RR Cdo Units should be first responders in yesterdays senario. They are trained and equipped and experienced likewise

You can see how India responded to the Mumbai attacks. NSG was used to fight its way into buildings, and also hostage/personnel rescue.

It is true, infantry training is different, and also, NSG's Special Action Group recruits from the Army.

 

[tharun]

Somewhere on LAC - Arunachal Pradesh

View attachment 11101

Three different guns in one pic how secular is our army...
And what are other guns except tavor...?

 

[Navnit Kundu]

Actually substandard Raw Materials to make rifles can play Havoc in a sustained fire fight. - Specially if the rifles have been issued over a long period of time.

If you Rifles center is off then you will simply end up spending way more ammo killing a target than needed.

If you wood/Fiber/Composite is crap it will break done with extreme heat / cold is applied to it.

Wars are won and lost on the little details.

I repeat what I said, it is not a technical issue for the governments, it is an economics issue for them. Every government has an estimate of how much each of their soldiers is worth and how many resources they are willing to expend on him. A highly trained pilot is valued more than an infantry soldier, for example, because the latter is considered expendable by governments. Suffice to say, they do not intend to provide Olympics grade precision rifles to the infantryman anytime soon, keep dreaming.

 

[armyofhind]

Three different guns in one pic how secular is our army...
And what are other guns except tavor...?

M-4, Galatz.

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[Chinmoy]

why do most SF operators have their trigger finger bared? you can see them in pics where they're wearing gloves, but the index finger is usually bare.
is it a propensity of commandos to have a bare-hands feel of the gun or something?

Seems no one answered in face value over here. The reason is too simple regardless of polymer or wood. SF guys are trained to use various sorts of weapon along with Tavor. So if you have seen Tavor, it got a large trigger guard so that it could be fired with heavy gloves too. But that is not the same with other standard weapons like AKM or others.
So as a simple operational standard, its easy to keep the finger portion of your hand bared then having fully gloved hand for sake of operational flexibility.