Indian Special Forces (archived)

[abingdonboy]

NSG:

 

[ALBY]

My persnal opinion is to leave NSG to be operated by Paramilitary personal and police only as NSG is counter terrorism unit .And if sailor from navy could become MARCOS then there is nothing which says the men from police couldn't clear the NSG training if given tough training.Deputing army men to SAG is a waste of army's resources,also it hampers the promotional prospects of the officers who are deputed to NSG.

 

[abingdonboy]

I will agree with you on this but I personally don't see a point and any utility in equipping just the M4 with a camo and leaving the Tavors untouched. It beats the purpose because in the picture, proportionally more Tavors can be seen than the lone M4.

At this level (SF) it is up to the individual operators to choose how they customise their gear (or not). Tavors have been "camo'd" also but it isn't that often you actually see an SF team in live ops.

Sadly both of the above operators have fallen.

 

[ALBY]

Don't know which fool had selected SIGs for NSG where as much better X-95 were wasted on B.S.F and other paramilitaries where AKs was only needed.SIG is an excellent weapon but X-95 is much more better in al aspects.

 

[ALBY]

Also the tavors are black but not that much shining which wil give away the position as orange coloured INSAS does.

 

[abingdonboy]

My persnal opinion is to leave NSG to be operated by Paramilitary personal and police only as NSG is counter terrorism unit .And if sailor from navy could become MARCOS then there is nothing which says the men from police couldn't clear the NSG training if given tough training.Deputing army men to SAG is a waste of army's resources,also it hampers the promotional prospects of the officers who are deputed to NSG.

I agree, with stringent selection processes and high levels of training there is no reason the police/CAPF personnel couldn't make up the NSG. HOWEVER this has to be ensured, there can be no compromises. As it stands the SRG (formed 100% of CAPFs and charged with VVIP duties whilst SAG made up of 100% IA is the CT unit) is significantly less competent than the SAG.

Also, if anyone got any wrong ideas from the media hype from the 31st Raising day media interaction- there is NO way women NSG operators are going to be doing any CT ops because they are from CAPFs and are a part of the SRG NOT the SAG and thus have no business in CT ops like the rest of the SRG.


I would so do away with the deputation policy in the NSG. I understand the benefits of this is that the force remains young and hungry but I also think that having a small, competent and very experienced core is important (yes instructors are this core but the operators need to be also).


Additionally I would do away with the SRG all together, as it stands the NSG has refused to accept any more VVIPs to protect and every year the number of people they have to protect is getting whittled down- right now I believe the figure is only 11. The CRPF/CISF have their own specialist units charged with this duty and are already carrying out Z+ security for other individuals- let them have that role.


100% of the NSG's budget should go on the SAG and thus be spent on the NSG's original mandate- CT, this nonsense with VVIP protection came after because of ego-centric politicians.

 

[abingdonboy]

Don't know which fool had selected SIGs for NSG where as much better X-95 were wasted on B.S.F and other paramilitaries where AKs was only needed.SIG is an excellent weapon but X-95 is much more better in al aspects.

The SIGs have been in NSG service for a a long time now (pre-26/11) and were originally ordered as designated marksmen rifles. After 26/11 the HITs (assault teams) were also issued them (1-2 carbine version per HIT). I guess they have a longstanding relationship with SIG and in the post-26/11 rush to modernise went with what they knew best in the same way they have simply ordered the latest MP-5 version post-26/11 with all the bells and whistles (sights, P-rails, accessories etc).


If the NSG were going to get the X-95 they may as well replace the MP-5 with it to all their operators, the point of the X-95 is that it offers a rifle round (5.56mm) in a carbine/SMG size.


I doubt the NSG are going to replace their MP-5s anytime soon (although I wish they would and the X-95 would be my preferred option if they did) so getting some FN SCARs to replace the SIGs in use by the HITs would be best- iF they need to be replaced.

 

[indiandefencefan]

FYI Tavors too have flashlightsin it,check the tavor of the man in the right side,his weapoonn have a flashlight.Though optics and flashlights are the only essential things which are needed for a tavor.What else you are askiing for?

@ALBY sir you have misunderstood my post. In my post I am referring to weapon camos only and not other attachments.

 

[indiandefencefan]

At this level (SF) it is up to the individual operators to choose how they customise their gear (or not). Tavors have been "camo'd" also but it isn't that often you actually see an SF team in live ops.

Sadly both of the above operators have fallen.

Thanks for the info.
Despite what you have said above, in many of the C-T OP pictures revealed to the public I had not noticed this phenomenon until recently.

PS: do you have any idea on how individual SF operators can modify their weapons (options,parameters etc....)

 

[ALBY]

@ALBY sir you have misunderstood my post. In my post I am referring to weapon camos only and not other attachments.

oops..my judjemental error.
Still isnt it difficult to spot a black coloured weapon from 20-30 metres in bushes until its trigger is squeezed

 

[ALBY]

The SIGs have been in NSG service for a a long time now (pre-26/11) and were originally ordered as designated marksmen rifles. After 26/11 the HITs (assault teams) were also issued them (1-2 carbine version per HIT). I guess they have a longstanding relationship with SIG and in the post-26/11 rush to modernise went with what they knew best in the same way they have simply ordered the latest MP-5 version post-26/11 with all the bells and whistles (sights, P-rails, accessories etc).


If the NSG were going to get the X-95 they may as well replace the MP-5 with it to all their operators, the point of the X-95 is that it offers a rifle round (5.56mm) in a carbine/SMG size.


I doubt the NSG are going to replace their MP-5s anytime soon (although I wish they would and the X-95 would be my preferred option if they did) so getting some FN SCARs to replace the SIGs in use by the HITs would be best- iF they need to be replaced.

If X-95 is introduced then there won''t be any need for SIGs as X-95 offers the same range of the SIGs,plus less weight and more balance plus more maneuverability. Concerning the replacements for MP,P-90 is the best suited than a 9mil,as it have better ppenetration if we are thinking into long time ahead where there mightt be chances of enemies using bullet proof vests in future.
Concerning the selection of Sigs,there was accusition of bribing by arms dealer Abhishek Verma.
Also the sniper rifles of NSG dates backs to 80s when it was created and since then they had not switched it.Its apt time for switching from PSG ..Reportedly theree is a new israeli bullpup sniper rifle in production ie M89-SRsniper rifle .

 

[indiandefencefan]

oops..my judjemental error.
Still isnt it difficult to spot a black coloured weapon from 20-30 metres in bushes until its trigger is squeezed

It is difficult to spot a black colored weapon at around 25 meters but depending on the location a black weapon may very well give your position away.
For someone on a specific lookout, say in a field or in a bush, matte black can stand out a lot if you are looking for it as it contrasts with the colors.
This will be equally reversed if the soldier is in a more urban environment as the black blends with the colors around it.

 

[indiandefencefan]

Concerning the replacements for MP,P-90 is the best suited than a 9mil,as it have better ppenetration if we are thinking into long time ahead where there mightt be chances of enemies using bullet proof vests in future.

Adding on to your post, maintenance for the P-90s will also not be a major issue as the SPG operates the weapon as well .

 

[elite member]

Let me clear one misconception of why NSG still stuck with MP5 version . All because of penetration power of a 9mm bullet . In a hostage situation you don't want your bullet piercing through hostages after hitting a tango . 9mm ensures that bullet wont go penetrating unarmed civilians in a hostage situation.
5.56 , 7.62x39 mm ammo is over kill in this situation and only issued to select member to deal with specific situations.

P90's 5.7×28mm cartridges are also not good for these specific situation .

 

[abingdonboy]

Thanks for the info.
Despite what you have said above, in many of the C-T OP pictures revealed to the public I had not noticed this phenomenon until recently.

PS: do you have any idea on how individual SF operators can modify their weapons (options,parameters etc....)

If you think about it, where have you seen the pics of SF ops in CT missions? All in urban environments right? Very rarely do we see pictures of SF operators/teams operating in the "bush" i.e. in forests and undeveloped terrain. I would say it is these teams that are more inclined to modify the colour of their weapons. These teams will also be operating in a very different way to their fellow SF teams in urban areas as these teams in the "bush" will be deployed for longer (duration and range) missions and will thus be required to blend in with the background to a larger degree.

The SF teams operating in urban settings act more as quick reaction forces for the RR/JKP where the situation is especially dangerous. These direct action missions do not require one to necessarily blend in with the background simply to harvest as much firepower as possible and deliver it down on the enemy.


As for the degree to which operators can modify their weapons- there isn't a whole lot you can do on a Tavor as the sight has both a visible and IR laser built in and the weapon itself is ergonomic enough that one doesn't require a foreguard/pistol grip. The most one can do is opt for a dual sight and modify the colour if so desired.

 

[abingdonboy]

If X-95 is introduced then there won''t be any need for SIGs as X-95 offers the same range of the SIGs,plus less weight and more balance plus more maneuverability. Concerning the replacements for MP,P-90 is the best suited than a 9mil,as it have better ppenetration if we are thinking into long time ahead where there mightt be chances of enemies using bullet proof vests in future.

If one is going to replace the SIG with the X-95 you may as well replace the MP-5 with it too surely? What benefits does the P-90 have over the X-95? They are of similar size and weight.

The threat of enemies using BPJs in the future is exactly what prompted the NSG to introduce 1-2 operators with the SIG in every assault team post 26/11 (with the others sticking to the MP-5). Prior to 26/11 the NSG only used the SIG as a dedicated marksmen rifle and assault team members were not issued it.

Let me clear one misconception of why NSG still stuck with MP5 version . All because of penetration power of a 9mm bullet . In a hostage situation you don't want your bullet piercing through hostages after hitting a tango . 9mm ensures that bullet wont go penetrating unarmed civilians in a hostage situation.
5.56 , 7.62x39 mm ammo is over kill in this situation and only issued to select member to deal with specific situations.

P90's 5.7×28mm cartridges are also not good for these specific situation .

I agree, the fear of "over penetration" in CQB is why the NSG has stuck with the 9mm cartridge as their primary round and hence the MP-5.

However, if you look around the world one can see that other dedicated CT units have moved over to the 5.56mm and or 7.62mm (i presume in response to the fear that they may one day go up against an enemy wearing BPJs). I'm sure the NSG are aware of this and make the correct choices according to their needs and it is fair to say they are covered for this with 1-2 operators in each assault team carrying the 5.56mm SIG carbine.

 

[delta]

My persnal opinion is to leave NSG to be operated by Paramilitary personal and police only as NSG is counter terrorism unit .And if sailor from navy could become MARCOS then there is nothing which says the men from police couldn't clear the NSG training if given tough training.Deputing army men to SAG is a waste of army's resources,also it hampers the promotional prospects of the officers who are deputed to NSG.

correct me if im wrong, but when the soldiers return to their units from the NSG, dont their skills and knowledge get imparted to the rest of the soldiers? can anyone confirm??

 

[indiandefencefan]

If you think about it, where have you seen the pics of SF ops in CT missions? All in urban environments right? Very rarely do we see pictures of SF operators/teams operating in the "bush" i.e. in forests and undeveloped terrain. I would say it is these teams that are more inclined to modify the colour of their weapons. These teams will also be operating in a very different way to their fellow SF teams in urban areas as these teams in the "bush" will be deployed for longer (duration and range) missions and will thus be required to blend in with the background to a larger degree.

The SF teams operating in urban settings act more as quick reaction forces for the RR/JKP where the situation is especially dangerous. These direct action missions do not require one to necessarily blend in with the background simply to harvest as much firepower as possible and deliver it down on the enemy.


As for the degree to which operators can modify their weapons- there isn't a whole lot you can do on a Tavor as the sight has both a visible and IR laser built in and the weapon itself is ergonomic enough that one doesn't require a foreguard/pistol grip. The most one can do is opt for a dual sight and modify the colour if so desired.

@abingdonboy , here is another pic of a weapon with a camo posted by @cobra commando

However this is an INSAS supplied to an infantry unit taking part in a bilateral exercise.

How does this modification come into play ??
Have the army started putting camos on INSAS rifles too or is it just to show off to the chinese ??

 

[elite member]

I agree, the fear of "over penetration" in CQB is why the NSG has stuck with the 9mm cartridge as their primary round and hence the MP-5.

However, if you look around the world one can see that other dedicated CT units have moved over to the 5.56mm and or 7.62mm (i presume in response to the fear that they may one day go up against an enemy wearing BPJs). I'm sure the NSG are aware of this and make the correct choices according to their needs and it is fair to say they are covered for this with 1-2 operators in each assault team carrying the 5.56mm SIG carbine.

That's the reason most of hostage rescue units are taught double tap shooting technique ,one shot at chest one on head . In US even petty bank robbers have access to apc round & armor but in India its less likely to happen .

 

[Bornubus]

@abingdonboy , here is another pic of a weapon with a camo posted by @cobra commando

However this is an INSAS supplied to an infantry unit taking part in a bilateral exercise.

How does this modification come into play ??
Have the army started putting camos on INSAS rifles too or is it just to show off to the chinese ??

I think even some RR units use camo on their weapons in kashmir.
CAMO on AK (RR)

Camo on INSAS (Maratha li)