Indian nuclear submarines

Rama

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Orginally posted by sayareakd

please explain what you meant by the above thanks.
Russia and India have been very careful on how this technology transfer would take place. Do you recall how an Indian navy chief was sacked within a day over this issue on India's nuclear Submarines? The technology transfer for both hull and reactor were done is such a way that it was easy to say that it was an Indian effort and not a Russian. But if one were to look at the article in frontline India , 28th August 2009, where India's nuclear chief Dr. Kakodkar said Russia helps was vital for the successful design manufacture and testing of the 83 MWE. If you look at the photo which publish by livefist , it indicates that it is a Russian design hull. Time will tell. We have to wait and see...
 
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Rama

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Originally posted by Kunal Biswas

1. What are the possibilities of purchasing a nuclear reactor for nuclear submarine from Russia?!
2. Whats the use of Sea-trials when reactor is foreign and will be not installed on other sisters..
3. Arihant had a PWR using 40% enriched uranium fuel (80 MWe ) where Russian friends have One KPM type (OK-650B?) reactor 200 MW PWR..

In regards to your 1st point, I did not said that the reactor was imported. The reactor was made in India of which the land base prototype has been running as early as 2003 and certified operational in 2006. That reactor still operational on land and exact duplicate of this reactor is install in INS Arihant. Refer to article India Frontline magazine dated 28 August 2009, title nuclear arm.

Your 2nd point , referred to my 1st answer

Regarding your 3rd question, 83 MWe is approximately equal to 190-200 MW thermal. So your quote that you have give me is incorrect. Do not confused with thermal rating with electrical rating because electrical rating is approximately 1/3 of thermal rating depending on efficiency.
 

sayareakd

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Rama thanks for casting doubts on the ATV, yeah it is admitted fact that Russians did help us with consultancy for the reactor for ATV, probably you are not aware and not many are aware that India has ATV-I(S-2) is not the first Indian made nuclear Sub. That will clarify many things for you.
 

Kunal Biswas

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if one were to look at the article in frontline India , 28th August 2009, where India's nuclear chief Dr. Kakodkar said Russia helps was vital for the successful design manufacture and testing of the 83 MWE. If you look at the photo which publish by livefist , it indicates that it is a Russian design hull. Time will tell. We have to wait and see...
@RAMA,
I partially agree with you, but calling Our Arihant a Russian Copy is not true!

INDIA made its own reactor, But Russians helped it making more compact and they too learned from this project..



Anil Kakodkar had claimed that the the Russians helped a little in design but the reactor was totally indigenous, with the Russians only providing consultancy.
PWR
The History of Indian PWR:


In December 1983, answering questions in the Indian Parliament, Defense Minister Venkataraman said: I have already said that we keep our options in this matter, if necessary we will go in for it. But then a nuclear-powered submarine is different from the nuclear submarine with nuclear warheads. I have already said that we are not going to use atomic energy for anything but peaceful purposes. Therefore, we will use it for power.... it will be only for propulsion."


"The shipbuilding expertise, shore-based support facilities and the manpower needed to build and operate nuclear submarines could not be acquired quickly. The Soviet Union was apparently reluctant to transfer either nuclear-powered submarines themselves or the technology required for their construction in India. In 1980 and 1982 the only submarines offered seem to have been refurbished Foxtrot Class. As a result, India began evaluating possible alternative conventionally powered submarines to replace the Foxtrot submarines in service. At this point it was already decided that at least some units of the design which was chosen would be built in India, and that the ultimate objective of producing nuclear-powered submarines would not be sacrificed. From the mid 1970's, a number of submarine designs were under consideration from Western Europe and the Soviet Union. European countries involved were France, the FRG, Italy, The Netherlands and Sweden, with the FRG and Sweden the clearly favoured options by 1980."

"Indian officials were looking for a design which could offer a chance to learn the production and operating skills relevant to nuclear-powered submarines. The Type-209 design offered by the West German company HDW met some of these criteria. In 1981 HDW won the order based a 'stretched' and heavier version of the Type-209 weighing 1500 tonnes (and consequently designated the Type-1500). West Germany also gained an advantage in negotiations by offering as a package a new generation of torpedoes supplied by the West German company AEG.

"In mid 1987 reports began to surface about Indian negotiations with the Soviet Union to transfer one or more nuclear submarines. Indian sources indicated that India had started a nuclear submarine reactor program of its own at BARC a decade before but with unsatisfactory results. Consequently, India decided to import the capability from the Soviet Union, initially in the form of Soviet nuclear-powered submarines, with Indian personal already in training in the Soviet Union to handle the equipment. In early January 1988, All-India Radio announced that the Soviet Union had 'leased' a nuclear-powered submarine to India with India taking delivery in the Soviet port of Vladivostok."

In late December 1995 it was reported that DRDO had made considerable progress in the fabrication of the pre-test capsule (PTC) was fabricated in 1994 at Hazira in Gujarat. From there it was transported to Kalpakkam. The PTC will fabricated into the final shell is reported to be made of titanium steel and has a hull diameter of 10 meters. This is about 3.5 meters more than the Kilo-class submarine originally borrowed by India. The use of a titanium steel hull will enable the submarine to dive to deeper depths. The hull is to be covered with rubber acoustic tiles to help reduce the signature of the submarine.

The initial design strategy was to copy a leased Russian nuclear submarine (Charlie II) using an Indian built nuclear reactor for propulsion. The Russians are said to have provided detailed drawing of the leased submarine minus the reactor design (providing reactor design details would have been a violation of the NPT).

Yes u may be right " 83 MWe is approximately equal to 190-200 MW thermal.", It has also been reported that the Russian submarine-design bureau Rubin is cooperating in developing the nuclear submarine's 190 MW PWR. Russian engineers have been working with DRDO on the design since 1991. (from Asian Age, May 25, 1996, p1),

The most important part of the submarine is the nuclear powerplant. Very little information is available concerning the powerplant. Certainly the time spent on the leased Soviet nuclear submarine provided valuable design information. However the radiation problems encountered caused much concern.

It is now known that China used information obtained about naval ship reactors to help design their first submarine reactor. Information was openly obtained about the West German reactor used on the Otto Hahn and the Soviet reactor used on the Lenin. This information would have surely been available to India.

Indian sources also mention information about a Japanese naval nuclear reactor (Mutsu) and its suitability for use in a submarine.

Core design, neutronics, power distribution coefficients and criticality calculations all are performed by BARC. Calculations are done in-house using codes developed by both BARC and Kalpakkam scientists. A locally designed supercomputer (PARAM) using parallel processing computers may aid in these efforts, although American and Japanese supercomputers are available for use. (42)Techniques have also been developed at the Advanced Numerical Research and Analysis Group to improve processing speeds of computers by exploiting parallel processing.

Soviet submarines are known to have used both medium and low level enriched uranium.The use of low level enriched uranium by China and France has also been described. According to P.K. Chari, the former director of the Institute of Defense Studies and Analyses (IDSA) and currently Professor of national Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi enriched (20%) uranium would find use in a reactor to power submarines. later evidence seems to indicate that India has the capability to produce the required highly enriched (>90%)uranium needed for the submarine reactor core.

Enrichment of the PWR core has varied from 21% to as high as 45% for later version cores. A typical first generation core contained approximately 50 kg of U-235 per reactor.

India is very experienced in the design and use of cermet fuel for small reactors. As cited earlier the uranium-aluminum phase diagram has been detailed and the effect of additives such as silicon has been examined. Both Aspara and Zerlina are known to have used medium enriched uranium.

(38)Aluminum clad uranium fuel elements are also in use in both the Cirus and Dhruva reactors. The uranium used in both of these reactors is of the unenriched type and is produced at the Uranium Metal Plant located at Trombay. Fabrication of the fuel elements is done at the Fuel Fabrication Division of BARC. Experience gained in the fabrication of these fuel elements would be invaluable in the design of submarine fuel elements.


The reactor and its containment vessel are reported to weigh some 600 tonnes. The pressurized water reactor (PWR) will use enriched uranium in the form of plate-type fuel elements.


The control rod technology for use with the rod worth minimizer has been well developed by India. They are able to adequately separate hafnium from zirconium and have also evaluated the worth of hafnium as compared to cadmium for use in control rods. The use of liquid poison systems has also been evaluated.

A sound foundation had been laid during late 90s, with a high powered, fast track, empowered management system in place. All the requisite institutions/infrastructure were conceptualized, sanctioned and launched from abi-ni-tio, in record time. Bharat Heavy Plates & Vessels at Vizag, Larson & Tubro at Hazira, Mazagon Dock Ship Building Yard, Bharat Heavy Electrical and Bharat Electronics at Bangalore were all roped in. Full cooperation was extended by all concerned, including the Navy, DRDO, DAE and the Public/Private sector undertakings concerned, particularly in making available their best talents for the task envisaged.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/sub/ssn/part01.htm
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2010/02/arihant-the-annihilator.html
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Some Artistic impression of INS Arihant..








when will this ins arihant get commisioned into indian navy
This will be followed by sea trials in 2009-10 and possible commissioning in 2011-12.
 
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keshtopatel

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This will be followed by sea trials in 2009-10 and possible commissioning in 2011-12.
Sea trials in the year 2010 ¿¿¿
Sea trials are different from Harbour trials!

You are living in a la la land!

The sea worthiness certificate is faaaaaaar away than stipulated by your majesty!

Errrr

However I dont have any problem if you have made a FATAL error though, and you are ready to rectify it
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Sea trials in the year 2010 ¿¿¿
Sea trials are different from Harbour trials!

You are living in a la la land!

The sea worthiness certificate is faaaaaaar away than stipulated by your majesty!

Errrr

However I dont have any problem if you have made a FATAL error though, and you are ready to rectify it
What in the world you are smoking now days??

1.Unlike Living in wonderland ( Whatever that is ) Land, In INDIA we haven't got a perfect pic of INS Arihant, The one is out was leaked one....

2. What are the Chances of publishing reports over the details of 'HARBOR TRAILS' AND 'SEA TRIALS' of INS Arihant OVER net?

3. What are the chances of publishing a detailed report on 'SEA WORTHINESS CERTIFICATE' of a INDIAN nuclear Sub over a WWW?

4. Beside all these Dr. Srikumar Banerjee,( BARC Director ) Never said specifically which reactors the one in Arihant or new ones constructed for other Submarines?

"Our nuclear steam supply system is ready 100 per cent. From our (DAE) side, everything is ready. We are only waiting for other systems to become operational so that we can start the commissioning activity of the reactor.( Its the new Reactors on construction site ) I really do not know when the harbour trials will be done. ( Why would a top-scientist discuss abt Nation`s top-secret project progress to Media ) "

Banerjee also confirmed that DAE is already building more reactors for the additional submarines.[/SIZE]( AS i said before, We are in making of new reactors for other Subs in line )[/SIZE]

READ & LEARN:
The SSBN will be commissioned into the Navy in two years after completion of sea trials.
( The Projected date is fixed I.e 2 years )
Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - INS Arihant
Arihant Class Submarine - Naval Technology
Nuclear submarine INS Arihant to be commissioned within 2 years
INS Arihant commissioned by the Indian PM | Top Stories Around
INS Arihant - Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur
 

keshtopatel

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I have problem with the following:

This will be followed by sea trials in 2009-10
We dont need the day to day reports of sea trials, all we want to know is that whether sea trial has taken place, or when it will take place. You have streched your last post for nothing.

And according to the latest reports, harbour trials are delayed, that means sea trial will begin next year, that is 2011:


Status
As of September 6, 2010, the submarine had not completed its harbor trials and its nuclear reactor was yet to be fueled.
In an interview with The Hindu on September 2, Srikumar Banerjee, Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), said: I really do not know when the harbour trials will be done.

Under the light of above, to say that Sea trials will begin 2010 is far fetched
 

Kunal Biswas

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I have problem with the following:

We dont need the day to day reports of sea trials, all we want to know is that whether sea trial has taken place, or when it will take place. ( You are not allowed to Know abt it ) You have streched your last post for nothing.:happy_2:

And according to the latest reports, harbour trials are delayed, that means sea trial will begin next year, that is 2011:

In an interview with The Hindu on September 2, Srikumar Banerjee, Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy (DAE), said: I really do not know when the harbour trials will be done.

Under the light of above, to say that Sea trials will begin 2010 is far fetched
The last post posted in my previous post is obviously overlooked.. :angry_6:
I mentioned in bold that Dr Banerjee denied to say abt harbor trails coz its a nation secret, Why would he mention abt such the details?

Which is taken very differently by Media, Which confuse the general public..
In Indian Gov Organizations anything related to any sensitive project is top-secret..

Its all in previous post..
Btw, If u r right then we will see Arihant in 2013..
 

sayareakd

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For destroying ASW helicopters equipped with dunking sonars, the DRDO and RAFAEL of Israel in early 2006 began co-developing a submarine-launched air defence missile system that will include twin three-cell vertical canisters each containing a ready-to-fire Python 5 missile that can be launched by the ATV from a submerged depth of 50 feet. This variant of the Python 5 air combat missile will have a 12km range.
India Defence Update: Article
 

nrj

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For destroying ASW helicopters equipped with dunking sonars, the DRDO and RAFAEL of Israel in early 2006 began co-developing a submarine-launched air defence missile system that will include twin three-cell vertical canisters each containing a ready-to-fire Python 5 missile that can be launched by the ATV from a submerged depth of 50 feet. This variant of the Python 5 air combat missile will have a 12km range. India Defence Update: Article
Saya, similar Vertical canisters will also be present in P-75B to destroy ASW aircrafts/helos. It seems that IN wants to use Vertical launchers for air-defense & other tubes for strike-option against subs/ships.

Any idea where will K-X be placed in ATVs or if in P75?
 

keshtopatel

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I mentioned in bold that Dr Banerjee denied to say abt harbor trails coz its a nation secret, Why would he mention abt such the details?


Its not the DETAILS, its a simple statement, that he himself has said he does not know when the HAT will be over. It means it is not over yet.

Also it is not yet fuelled, as per your own source provided to me. It means it will be more than 3 months for PWR to go critical, and its sub system checked.

The trials are being conducted at a concealed test area called 'Site Bravo'. During harbour acceptance trials, the nuclear power plant and auxiliary systems of the submarine will be tested for stability.

"Arihant has been developed as part of the military modernisation programme undertaken by India."
The most crucial part of the trials will be the firing of the reactor. Once the reactor is fired all systems on board are tested on the inherent power of the submarine.
Every submarin goes for HAT and SAT, its a common knowledge for which we dont need any litterature to rely on.

Btw, If u r right then we will see Arihant in 2013.
.

Above is more credeble.....
 

sayareakd

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Saya, similar Vertical canisters will also be present in P-75B to destroy ASW aircrafts/helos. It seems that IN wants to use Vertical launchers for air-defense & other tubes for strike-option against subs/ships.
nrj if the report is true then, it means quite a jump in our capabilities against airborne threat to our subs, as the same system can be used in other diesel submarine.

this also means that pakistani Lockheed P-3 Orion which is four-engine turboprop aircraft, wont be much of threat in future to any of the subs of IN.
 

dove

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One point I have read about this before is that when a Submarine fires at an ASW aircraft, that itself gives away its position to others. Normally hunting subs in the vast ocean is quite hard and getting an indication of where it is, is very useful to the enemy ASW assets. Even ASW ships can travel faster and chase down a sub once its approximate location is known. I would think that stealth is the only real protection for a sub and the air defense system will be used only as a last desperate measure ?
 

sayareakd

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dove you are partly right, but need to know that modern sub hunters work very efficiently, but they are not jet power aircraft and helicopters, therefore modified Python-5 with 20km range is good missile against these aerial threats, when the hunter will suddenly become hunted. BTW think of tow equipment for sub.

Python (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Ray

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Sea trials in the year 2010 ¿¿¿
Sea trials are different from Harbour trials!

You are living in a la la land!

The sea worthiness certificate is faaaaaaar away than stipulated by your majesty!

Errrr

However I dont have any problem if you have made a FATAL error though, and you are ready to rectify it
Just for education, can we know what are Harbour Trials and what are Sea Trials and what constitute both?
 

dove

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How does a submarine detect asw aircraft ? afaik radars can't be used from underwater and detect a airborne threat.
 

Kunal Biswas

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How does a submarine detect asw aircraft ? afaik radars can't be used from underwater and detect a airborne threat.
First thing we need to know how a ASW Helo and Aircraft detect submarines..

ASW HELOs:
ASW-Helicopters are usually equipped with MADs ("Magnetic Anomaly Detectors"), dipping sonar (active and passive) and sonobuoys (also active and passive); ASW aircraft are all equipped with MAD and sonobuoys only,MAD-detectors can detect submarines only within a quite limited zone. Dipping sonar and sonobuoys ( In aircraft, active sonar is used in the form of disposable sonobuoys that are dropped in the aircraft's patrol area or in the vicinity of possible enemy sonar contacts. Active systems are rarely used, as doing so reveals presence) are the most effective means of submarine hunting, then they enable the crew of the helicopter to listen to underwater sounds over extended periods of time.
ASW Aircrafts:
ASW-Aircraft are much faster than either submarines or helicopters, and usually have an extended range and excellent endurance. However, their speed precludes them from using a dipping sonar, and when it comes to detection means related to sound they are limited to carriage of sonobuoys, and a MAD-detector. while some also have powerful surface-search radars.

Counter Measures by Submarine to detect AEW Aircrats/helo As per Wiki:
Submarines also carry radar equipment for detection of surface ships and aircraft. Sub captains are more likely to use radar detection gear rather than active radar to detect targets, as radar can be detected far beyond its own return range, revealing the submarine.

Modern military submarines rely almost entirely on a suite of passive and active sonars to find their prey. Active sonar relies on an audible "ping" to generate echoes to reveal objects around the submarine. Active systems are rarely used, as doing so reveals the sub's presence. Passive sonar is a set of sensitive hydrophones set into the hull or trailed in a towed array, generally several hundred feet long. Passive sonar has several advantages. Most importantly, it is silent. If the target radiated noise level is high enough, it can have a greater range than active sonar, and allows the target to be identified. Since any motorized object makes some noise, it may in principle be detected, depending on the level of noise emitted and the ambient noise level in the area, as well as the technology used. To simplify, passive sonar "sees" around the ship using it.

Submarine Hunting
Submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sonar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

keshtopatel

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Just for education, can we know what are Harbour Trials and what are Sea Trials and what constitute both?
My pleasure...

During the harbour trial, the Drydock is flooded with water, reactor is fueld, reactor is fired reaches criticalty (within four weeks) and its power level checked feeding all the systems, standby generators started and checked, all sub systems along with other critical eqiupment checked before it is release for sea trials.

During the sea trial the submarin is prone to many tests like endurance, maximum depth, full throtle speed, stablity test, pressure cum temperature, sonar testing and lastly weapon testing. This sea trial process would give it seaworthiness certificate, without which the submarine can not sail. Sea trials are extensive, Arihant would be out in the open sea for little more than two years.
 
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