Indian nuclear submarines

IndianHawk

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You appear misinformed regarding the reactor story. Please read in full:

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...usia-helped-deliver-indias-baby-boomer_533849

Additionally, none of the data regarding timeline of Arihant in public domain is accurate for obvious reasons.



We aren't China.

For obvious reasons we will not do anything that violates end-user agreements between buyer & seller unless in extraordinary circumstances.



FYI, India sends the Kilos to Russia for refits....after HSL decided to cut open INS Sindhukirti, screwed around for NINE YEARS with the sub in dock because they couldn't figure it out, and finally gave up and asked Russians to send workers here to finish the work.

Since then, lesson learnt, IN sends all its Kilo-class boats to Russia for their refits, which when done with the proper procedure (which Russians haven't shared with us), is usually done in a period of 2-3 years maximum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Sindhukirti_(S61)

https://www.rbth.com/economics/defe...n-shipyard-repairs-indian-sub-in-india_582423

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...lass-submarine-refit/articleshow/49425464.cms



It is the fact:

"....ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. "

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70684809.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

If you don't wish to believe it, that's your problem.



A rocket is more than a engine.



All the non-cryogenic liquid motors used by ISRO on all existing launch vehicles...

> PSLV 2nd stage
> GSLV Mk-II 2nd stage
> GSLV Mk-III core stage (2 x engines)

...are all powered by Vikas derivatives. I don't know which other imaginary non-cryogenic liquid engine developed indigenously you're talking about.

To be noted is the fact that nowhere I have stated India could not have developed these engines by ourselves if given enough time (like we did with the cryogenic engines), but that doing things this way will take much, much longer than developing off of foreign assistance wherever available.
You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge we have developed cryogenics in-house yet you are over emphasizing french role in Vikas engine.

Yes we use Vikas derivatives because we bought tot for basic engine outright and we were in hurry to deploy own satellite launch vehicle.

The design and derivatives ( which we made) are doing the job required and so we are working with them . If we need new design we are more than capable and were capable decades before to come up with our own engine.

Agni series was flying since late 1980s. That was pure desi engine. And could have very well replaced Vikas design if required.

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Kshithij

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You appear misinformed regarding the reactor story. Please read in full:

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger...usia-helped-deliver-indias-baby-boomer_533849

Additionally, none of the data regarding timeline of Arihant in public domain is accurate for obvious reasons.
I never said Russia didn't help. I only said that India put most of the efforts while Russians gave consultancy. There is a difference between consultancy and technology transfer.

For obvious reasons we will not do anything that violates end-user agreements between buyer & seller unless in extraordinary circumstances.
I am not going to argue with you about ethics. I am only talking of capabilities. Don't change topic.

Since then, lesson learnt, IN sends all its Kilo-class boats to Russia for their refits, which when done with the proper procedure (which Russians haven't shared with us), is usually done in a period of 2-3 years maximum.
India just transferred a submarine fitted in HSL to Myanmar. Read first.

ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future
And ET is the most reliable source that has never lied? Do all the news in ET reflect in ground reality and results? I am asking for logical consistency, not for newspaper article. Logically, fund deficit doesn't make sense when it comes to important technology. Anyone who talks of money in technology transfer is just talking fake news. I want consistent answer based on ground reality and logic. You have to quote articles only if you can argue about the consistency of the content.

All the non-cryogenic liquid motors used by ISRO on all existing launch vehicles...

> PSLV 2nd stage
> GSLV Mk-II 2nd stage
> GSLV Mk-III core stage (2 x engines)
French engine was cheap engine that could not lift large mass. French only sold the simple engine which was available easily by other sources. And due to this, India could not launch any meaningful payload till 1994. I want explanation as to why India couldn't launch satellite till 1994 despite France giving engine in 1970. Simple logic says that French engine of 1970 is completely different from the Vikas engine India uses to launch satellites.

PS- Refute my argument by giving logically consistent answers, not just quoting some articles. The questions must be answered and facts must be linked consistently.

I forgot to clarify this last time and hence I am replying now. I won't reply next time unless you give me logical explanation regardless of how many news articles you quote. I prefer to be in exile as much as possible
 

Gessler

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France sold tot for basic rocket engine outright as others ( Ukraine , Russia )were ready to do the same and it wasn't that difficult to develop .

France has never provided any tech for which there was no alternative provider or was not within our grasp.
But we do have alternative for aero engines - Ukraine!

You do realize how much tech from Ukraine has been bought & absorbed by China?

The reason why we don't bother with them is because their tech comes with the same limitations that Russian engines typically have. Short service lives, frequent maintenance etc.

And make no mistake - France was ready & willing to offer the tech we needed for Kaveri. However it could not be done within the price we had calculated - that's the problem.

Case in example french didn't gave cryogenics.
Neither they were ready to help in nuke submarine reactor design or supersonic missile.
French only offer tot for what is already in the world market.

Russian helped us with submarine design. they were the consultant . But once we have made Arihant reactor we can scale it up on our own. Just like all major nuclear powers have done .
If you read my original post you'll see I had specifically stated that there will NOT be any French involvement in reactor owing to the fact we require HEU and they use LEU designs.

You are contradicting yourself. You acknowledge we have developed cryogenics in-house yet you are over emphasizing french role in Vikas engine.
I clearly said:

" To be noted is the fact that nowhere I have stated India could not have developed these engines by ourselves if given enough time (like we did with the cryogenic engines), but that doing things this way will take much, much longer than developing off of foreign assistance "

Why you missed that or deliberately misquoting me?

In terms of developing cutting-edge techs, there are always two things - money & time.

More money = less time needed to develop.
Less money = more time needed to develop.

Beyond this, its up to the decision-makers of the country to determine whether a project's strategic importance is valid enough to warrant additional money, or if we are fine with struggling for 10-20 more years to do the same thing indigenously.

In the Kaveri project, it appears we have evidently chosen the latter option.

Yes we use Vikas derivatives because we bought tot for basic engine outright and we were in hurry to deploy own satellite launch vehicle.

If we need new design we are more than capable and were capable decades before to come up with our own engine.
Doesn't mean we will stop looking for foreign assistance in a bid to shorten the development time cycle. For example, where is India getting the design for its upcoming SCE-200 semi-cryogenic engine from?

Ans: Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, Ukraine.

Now you may ask, why we going to Ukraine when we already developed cryogenic indigenously? Because SC cycle is different, and adopting a developed design shortens the time cycle as I stated. This is exactly what Chinese had done with their YF-100/115 SC engines as well.

Agni series was flying since late 1980s. That was pure desi engine. And could have very well replaced Vikas design if required.
Agni missiles use solid-fuel stages.

You can't replace a liquid-fueled throttle-able engine with a solid-fueled one.
 
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Gessler

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I never said Russia didn't help. I only said that India put most of the efforts while Russians gave consultancy. There is a difference between consultancy and technology transfer.
You think Russia (or any NPT-signatory country) will openly come out and say "yes we helped a non-NPT country build nuke sub" and not expect sanctions?

On paper, it will only ever be 'consultancy'. But one has to be delusional to believe that.

I am not going to argue with you about ethics. I am only talking of capabilities. Don't change topic.
The only topic is of reality.

India just transferred a submarine fitted in HSL to Myanmar. Read first.
Can you not understand the difference between deep refit (for which we send Kilos to Russia) and a minor refreshing of equipment (synonymous with topping off oil so to speak) which is done before ownership of boat is transferred?

Or you are actually denying that India send Kilos to Russia?

And ET is the most reliable source that has never lied? Do all the news in ET reflect in ground reality and results? I am asking for logical consistency, not for newspaper article. Logically, fund deficit doesn't make sense when it comes to important technology. Anyone who talks of money in technology transfer is just talking fake news. I want consistent answer based on ground reality and logic. You have to quote articles only if you can argue about the consistency of the content.
As I said, it's your problem if you chose to not believe.

French engine was cheap engine that could not lift large mass. French only sold the simple engine which was available easily by other sources. And due to this, India could not launch any meaningful payload till 1994. I want explanation as to why India couldn't launch satellite till 1994 despite France giving engine in 1970. Simple logic says that French engine of 1970 is completely different from the Vikas engine India uses to launch satellites.
The specs speak otherwise.

http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Specials/VIKAS_engines/Vikas.htm

PS- Refute my argument by giving logically consistent answers, not just quoting some articles. The questions must be answered and facts must be linked consistently.

I forgot to clarify this last time and hence I am replying now. I won't reply next time unless you give me logical explanation regardless of how many news articles you quote. I prefer to be in exile as much as possible
Erm...you said the exact same thing in your previous post:

"I won't reply unless my questions are answered consistently. I am exiling myself from this forum and will only lurk here reading posts. I will only comment to point out loopholes when someone speaks glaring fake news in overconfident tone. See ya"

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-nuclear-submarines.10/page-143#post-1568488

And as you are claiming my arguments lack consistency (as if I owe you anything :pound:)...and yet you are still replying.

Now again in this post you are saying you won't reply if consistency is lacking...but I promise you - you WILL reply again. Cuz you are just that kind of person.
 

IndianHawk

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But we do have alternative for aero engines - Ukraine!

You do realize how much tech from Ukraine has been bought & absorbed by China?

The reason why we don't bother with them is because their tech comes with the same limitations that Russian engines typically have. Short service lives, frequent maintenance etc.

And make no mistake - France was ready & willing to offer the tech we needed for Kaveri. However it could not be done within the price we had calculated - that's the problem.



If you read my original post you'll see I had specifically stated that there will NOT be any French involvement in reactor owing to the fact we require HEU and they use LEU designs.



I clearly said:

" To be noted is the fact that nowhere I have stated India could not have developed these engines by ourselves if given enough time (like we did with the cryogenic engines), but that doing things this way will take much, much longer than developing off of foreign assistance "

Why you missed that or deliberately misquoting me?

In terms of developing cutting-edge techs, there are always two things - money & time.

More money = less time needed to develop.
Less money = more time needed to develop.

Beyond this, its up to the decision-makers of the country to determine whether a project's strategic importance is valid enough to warrant additional money, or if we are fine with struggling for 10-20 more years to do the same thing indigenously.

In the Kaveri project, it appears we have evidently chosen the latter option.

Yes we use Vikas derivatives because we bought tot for basic engine outright and we were in hurry to deploy own satellite launch vehicle.



Doesn't mean we will stop looking for foreign assistance in a bid to shorten the development time cycle. For example, where is India getting the design for its upcoming SCE-200 semi-cryogenic engine from?

Ans: Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, Ukraine.

Now you may ask, why we going to Ukraine when we already developed cryogenic indigenously? Because SC cycle is different, and adopting a developed design shortens the time cycle as I stated. This is exactly what Chinese had done with their YF-100/115 SC engines as well.



Agni missiles use solid-fuel stages.

You can't replace a liquid-fueled throttle-able engine with a solid-fueled one.
[/QUOTE]You are again oversimplifying technology transfer. We are only offered true tot Transfer on matters where we already have the critical mass to develop our own.

French are only offering safran core outright to be mated with Rest of Kaveri while what we need is to solve the issues of Kaveri core and blades.

French are demanding too much money to address the issues which DRDO thinks it can now handle on its own with less money ( given recent achievements in alloys for Kaveri engine).

So there is stalemate.

French want to hook us up with their core in the name of tech transfer. It's not tech transfer.

Same for Scorpion we build that and now we have to tender for 75i separately because we can't copy Scorpion on our own because there was no real tot .

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IndianHawk

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But we do have alternative for aero engines - Ukraine!

You do realize how much tech from Ukraine has been bought & absorbed by China?

The reason why we don't bother with them is because their tech comes with the same limitations that Russian engines typically have. Short service lives, frequent maintenance etc.

And make no mistake - France was ready & willing to offer the tech we needed for Kaveri. However it could not be done within the price we had calculated - that's the problem.



If you read my original post you'll see I had specifically stated that there will NOT be any French involvement in reactor owing to the fact we require HEU and they use LEU designs.



I clearly said:

" To be noted is the fact that nowhere I have stated India could not have developed these engines by ourselves if given enough time (like we did with the cryogenic engines), but that doing things this way will take much, much longer than developing off of foreign assistance "

Why you missed that or deliberately misquoting me?

In terms of developing cutting-edge techs, there are always two things - money & time.

More money = less time needed to develop.
Less money = more time needed to develop.

Beyond this, its up to the decision-makers of the country to determine whether a project's strategic importance is valid enough to warrant additional money, or if we are fine with struggling for 10-20 more years to do the same thing indigenously.

In the Kaveri project, it appears we have evidently chosen the latter option.



Doesn't mean we will stop looking for foreign assistance in a bid to shorten the development time cycle. For example, where is India getting the design for its upcoming SCE-200 semi-cryogenic engine from?

Ans: Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, Ukraine.

Now you may ask, why we going to Ukraine when we already developed cryogenic indigenously? Because SC cycle is different, and adopting a developed design shortens the time cycle as I stated. This is exactly what Chinese had done with their YF-100/115 SC engines as well.



Agni missiles use solid-fuel stages.

You can't replace a liquid-fueled throttle-able engine with a solid-fueled one.
Regarding Agni my point was building a missile engine is difficult than building a upward only rocket engine. A missile has to fly horizontally and nuclear missile can't afford an engine failure.

While launch vehicle just have to go upwards and if they fail they fall into sea without nuking our own people.

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Gessler

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You are again oversimplifying technology transfer. We are only offered true tot Transfer on matters where we already have the critical mass to develop our own.

French are only offering safran core outright to be mated with Rest of Kaveri while what we need is to solve the issues of Kaveri core and blades.

French want to hook us up with their core in the name of tech transfer. It's not tech transfer.
Reason for M88 core to be brought in is because SAFRAN determined that the existing Kabini core cannot be reliably upscaled to the level where we can power a LCA or MWF with it.

The ToT is regarding the assembly of said core in India, together with the rest of the engine (on which we hold IPR). The point is its much better to have a workable engine on which even 50% of the stuff is Indian-owned (in terms of Intellectual property) rather than just having engines where 100% of the stuff is foreign-owned IPR (like AL-31FP).

French are demanding too much money to address the issues which DRDO thinks it can now handle on its own with less money ( given recent achievements in alloys for Kaveri engine).

So there is stalemate.
If at all DRDO/GTRE thinks they can develop Kaveri to the level needed (where it can power LCA & MWF) all by itself, then why did they even bother talking with SAFRAN for assistance?

Same for Scorpion we build that and now we have to tender for 75i separately because we can't copy Scorpion on our own because there was no real tot .
You are mistaking transfer of production-engineering process (which is what is commonly referred to as ToT) with transfer of intellectual property rights.

We had 'ToT' to build Type-209 submarines as well (the last 2 Shishumar-class subs were built in India), but that doesn't mean we can now go and build our own submarine by copying U-209.

Regarding Agni my point was building a missile engine is difficult than building a upward only rocket engine. A missile has to fly horizontally and nuclear missile can't afford an engine failure.

While launch vehicle just have to go upwards and if they fail they fall into sea without nuking our own people.

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Nope - the ascent stage characteristics of a ballistic missile are exactly the same as that of a rocket (save for the fact only solid-fuel is used so to reduce ready-time, at the cost of being unable to throttle). The re-entry vehicle of a ballistic missile like Agni does not have any propulsion when it is coming back into atmosphere - it is free falling toward target (with minor course-corrections by onboard MARV motors).

This is the only part of the Agni missile that makes it to the target, the RV -



The rest of the missile is split into stages and yes they all fall away into ocean (provided missile is going over ocean) just like a rocket stages do.

On the other hand if you are referring to missiles that go 'horizontally', as in cruise missiles, well obviously those motors are nowhere at the level of a space rocket and cannot even lob 500 grams payload into LEO.
 

aditya10r

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@Gessler any time frame for our SSN program???

I mean when can we expect it??
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aditya10r

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2030 give or take a few.

........................................................................................
2030 to induction or keel laying????

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IndianHawk

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Reason for M88 core to be brought in is because SAFRAN determined that the existing Kabini core cannot be reliably upscaled to the level where we can power a LCA or MWF with it.

The ToT is regarding the assembly of said core in India, together with the rest of the engine (on which we hold IPR). The point is its much better to have a workable engine on which even 50% of the stuff is Indian-owned (in terms of Intellectual property) rather than just having engines where 100% of the stuff is foreign-owned IPR (like AL-31FP).



If at all DRDO/GTRE thinks they can develop Kaveri to the level needed (where it can power LCA & MWF) all by itself, then why did they even bother talking with SAFRAN for assistance?



You are mistaking transfer of production-engineering process (which is what is commonly referred to as ToT) with transfer of intellectual property rights.

We had 'ToT' to build Type-209 submarines as well (the last 2 Shishumar-class subs were built in India), but that doesn't mean we can now go and build our own submarine by copying U-209.



Nope - the ascent stage characteristics of a ballistic missile are exactly the same as that of a rocket (save for the fact only solid-fuel is used so to reduce ready-time, at the cost of being unable to throttle). The re-entry vehicle of a ballistic missile like Agni does not have any propulsion when it is coming back into atmosphere - it is free falling toward target (with minor course-corrections by onboard MARV motors).

This is the only part of the Agni missile that makes it to the target, the RV -



The rest of the missile is split into stages and yes they all fall away into ocean (provided missile is going over ocean) just like a rocket stages do.

On the other hand if you are referring to missiles that go 'horizontally', as in cruise missiles, well obviously those motors are nowhere at the level of a space rocket and cannot even lob 500 grams payload into LEO.
Regarding safran - DRDO stalemate. Whatever safran was offering is not enough. Hence no deal. Otherwise there would be a deal. It didn't happen . Case closed.

Regarding tot for u209 yes we can build copies of it. We didn't because we were bankrupt in 1990s and Russia offered kilos much cheaper than it would cost to build u209 .
We are today building dhanush with Bofors tot.
South Korean have build and exported submarine based on u212 tot.

Regarding Agni missile. A missile is not just launched from shore. As a strategic weapon it can be launched from anywhere rail , road , deep into hinterland as such a missile travels vast distance over our own population centre before going out of atmosphere so point remain a nuclear missile engine needs to be much much more reliable than any satellite launch vehicle which can be launched from shore only so that there whole trajectory remains over oceans only.

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Gessler

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View attachment 37969

IMO model of the new SSBN for hydrodynamic testing
Nice...the hump & how it sits directly adjacent to the conning tower is characteristic of a Delta-inspired desire (understandable, Rubin Design Bureau had a huge hand in Arihant as well), but of note is that the dive planes have been moved to the hull instead of being on the tower like on Arihant/Delta.

The layout of the dive planes is more akin to the UK Vanguard-class design.

Nice...surely hoping it'll end up with a pump-jet.

2030 to induction or keel laying????

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Induction, hopefully.
 

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