Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Smoothbore125mm]

Bhindi finally we are getting rid of the Bhopal Steam Turbines that came in with the effing Leanders.

yeah they needed a revamp for quite a bit of time now good that they are doing it 20 years means these missile boats would go on till 2040s damn
plus i wanted a removal of steam turbine from vikramaditya too but that would cost too much to make financial sense

 

[ezsasa]

Why does IN lag behind in domestic manufacture of submarines?
They have managed to produce designs for everything from aircraft carriers to corvettes and sarkari shipyards build them, armaments can be imported and many electronics are supplied by BEL.

Technologically what are the hurdles for this?

there will be many reasons, including the starting point of independent India itself which is only 75 years old with most of that period suffering from absolute poverty emanating out of political direction it was taken in.

once GoI decided to go nuclear, strategic planners had to prioritise the limited resources available (at that time) on technologies that no one is going to give to us , that's how ballistic missile program and arihant came into picture.

the clock starts in 90's not 47.

 

[shade]

there will be many reasons, including the starting point of independent India itself which is only 75 years old with most of that period suffering from absolute poverty emanating out of political direction it was taken in.

once GoI decided to go nuclear, strategic planners had to prioritise the limited resources available (at that time) on technologies that no one is going to give to us , that's how ballistic missile program and arihant came into picture.

the clock starts in 90's not 47.

I meant for ships they have done a great job, even the subsystems have a high indigenous contribution, like Brahmos and those Israeli anti-air missiles are co-produced here, electronics from BEL and all.
Guess doctrine wise for a long time their focus was on getting surface ships rather than submarines.

Soviet and Chicom focus meanwhile was on submarines to combat the Aircraft Carriers of Freedom and Democrazy, so they have a large submarine fleet even today.

 

[ezsasa]

I meant for ships they have done a great job, even the subsystems have a high indigenous contribution, like Brahmos and those Israeli anti-air missiles are co-produced here, electronics from BEL and all.
Guess doctrine wise for a long time their focus was on getting surface ships rather than submarines.

Soviet and Chicom focus meanwhile was on submarines to combat the Aircraft Carriers of Freedom and Democrazy, so they have a large submarine fleet even today.

even for ships, there is a gradual progression in terms of tonnage and sub-systems.
take MDL for example..

Nilgiri class - 2900-1966
Godavari Class - 3800-1978
Delhi Class - 6200 - 1991
Shivalik Class - 6000 - 2001
Kolkata Class - 7400 - 2006
Visakhapatnam - 7500 - 2019

in Submarines
Shishukumar Class - Germany - 1991
Kalvari Class - France - 2015

so yes, if decision had been taken that focus would be divided equally on nuclear and non-nuclear at the same time, it would have happened by now. but the resource constraints did not allow for it.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

even for ships, there is a gradual progression in terms of tonnage and sub-subsystems.
take MDL for example..

Nilgiri class - 2900-1966
Godavari Class - 3800-1978
Delhi Class - 6200 - 1991
Shivalik Class - 6000 - 2001
Kolkata Class - 7400 - 2006
Visakhapatnam - 7500 - 2019

in Submarines
Shishukumar Class - Germany - 1991
Kalvari Class - France - 2015

so yes, if decision had been taken that focus would be divided equally on nuclear and non-nuclear at the same time, it would have happened by now. but the resource constraints did not allow for it.

newer nilgiri gonna take it to 6700-6800 (2025)
next gen destroyer 10000-12000 (20??)

 

[Azaad]

I meant for ships they have done a great job, even the subsystems have a high indigenous contribution, like Brahmos and those Israeli anti-air missiles are co-produced here, electronics from BEL and all.
Guess doctrine wise for a long time their focus was on getting surface ships rather than submarines.

Soviet and Chicom focus meanwhile was on submarines to combat the Aircraft Carriers of Freedom and Democrazy, so they have a large submarine fleet even today.

I've a different take on it . The IN has always had incrementalism as their philosophy never exponentialism . Put another way think of how the LCA program panned out. Would the IN be permitted to experiment with the tiny budget allocation they've had down the years & decades ?

They actually pioneered the idea that RoK later adopted successfully which is tying up with a foreign OEM & absorbing technology while gradually implementing it through successive iterations over time & improving on it apart from indigenising the sub assemblies.

We did it with HDW / Shishumar class of submarines before the original Pappu's administration was caught with its hand in the till & HDW blacklisted thus jeopardizing the program & permanently putting the plan into deep freeze pretty much like after the Bofors saga we never inducted any artillery gun for 30 years , with the result , this is where we are now.

The best part is a sizeable part of those technicians & engineers from MDL trained in Germany which included a good number of Bostiaos & Babushes from that part of Mumbai went on to settle in Australia after the project came to an abrupt end , helping them with constructing the Collins class of submarines there .

 

[mamamia12]

Why does IN lag behind in domestic manufacture of submarines?
They have managed to produce designs for everything from aircraft carriers to corvettes and sarkari shipyards build them, armaments can be imported and many electronics are supplied by BEL.

Technologically what are the hurdles for this?

I think Conventional ones are differently difficult than Nuclear subs. We can look at Thai insistence for German
Engines. I mean China and India can build one, but it won't match the silence of other flagships.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

I think Conventional ones are differently difficult than Nuclear subs. We can look at Thai insistence for German
Engines. I mean China and India can build one, but it won't match the silence of other flagships.

to make best gas turbines first we have to make best jet engines and to make best engines first we have to make engines
govt should have poured enormous money (5-6 billions $) in combined engine development for a long period say 10-15 years we would have been free for engine side by that way

problem is continuing today too normally we make engine then the type of equipment is based on the engine but we continue to do the thing that we make a fighter thinking of an imaginary engine then either someone ditch us or we cant make engine that size sad truth

 

[mamamia12]

to make best gas turbines first we have to make best jet engines and to make best engines first we have to make engines
govt should have poured enormous money (5-6 billions $) in combined engine development for a long period say 10-15 years we would have been free for engine side by that way

problem is continuing today too normally we make engine then the type of equipment is based on the engine but we continue to do the thing that we make a fighter thinking of an imaginary engine then either someone ditch us or we cant make engine that size sad truth

Submarine Industry is like a hamster in a wheel. There is no stopping. For leading companies like TKMS, Naval Group or Electric Boat, there is no concept of "Hurrah, we finished it, we can relax for few years" unlike Chai-biscuit attitude of drdo or Mod or babus. It needs continuous refinements, continuous improvements. If r&d is stopped, they lose relevance. So, it seems I can see such attitude in Navy, they are thinking like its a one time r&d and one batch manufacturing, then close dukaan and relax. But, my fear is that such attitude is lifeblood of PSU Shipyards. do exactly as such and no need work a additional one parameter as long as they can get their salary on time. I hope Gobermint don't give that next contract to Mdl and instead to L&T.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Submarine Industry is like a hamster in a wheel. There is no stopping. For leading companies like TKMS, Naval Group or Electric Boat, there is no concept of "Hurrah, we finished it, we can relax for few years" unlike Chai-biscuit attitude of drdo or Mod or babus. It needs continuous refinements, continuous improvements. If r&d is stopped, they lose relevance. So, it seems I can see such attitude in Navy, they are thinking like its a one time r&d and one batch manufacturing, then close dukaan and relax. But, my fear is that such attitude is lifeblood of PSU Shipyards. do exactly as such and no need work a additional one parameter as long as they can get my salary on time. I hope Gobermint don't give that next contract to Mdl and instead to L&T.

thats why they have tendors so that the private and public shipyards get enough fight and both quote the best offers
if you think bout the navy pov they want the best ships fast with the least cost so form their side enough have already been done the shipyards negligence would be problematic lets see how good the p-76 subs would be then we would get a big picture rn i cant comment on major problems cause i dont see them with the navy

 

[mamamia12]

thats why they have tendors so that the private and public shipyards get enough fight and both quote the best offers
if you think bout the navy pov they want the best ships fast with the least cost so form their side enough have already been done the shipyards negligence would be problematic lets see how good the p-76 subs would be then we would get a big picture rn i cant comment on major problems cause i dont see them with the navy

That PSU vs Private tendering itself is a sham dogshit. PSUs will anyhow undercut L&T and then will escalate costs without suffering a consequence. Look at every navy program, its a clown show by PSU Shipyards. You have to remember, even if L&T makes zero profit i.e they bid their lowest price with 0 profit, what happens next? How can it invest in r&d for next iteration? Isn't that what we are aiming to do? Manufacture&Improvise, how can 0 rupees be spent on Improvising? PSU Shipyards must be privatized completely or Introduce a desi version of Nunn-McCurdy Amendment disqualifying PSUs for next one tender or for 5 years with salary cuts upto half and force them to shift to Private shipyards.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

That PSU vs Private tendering itself is a sham dogshit. PSUs will anyhow undercut L&T and then will escalate costs without suffering a consequence. Look at every navy program, its a clown show by PSU Shipyards. You have to remember, even if L&T makes zero profit i.e they bid their lowest price with 0 profit, what happens next? How can it invest in r&d for next iteration? Isn't that what we are aiming to do? Manufacture&Improvise, how can 0 rupees be spent on Improvising? PSU Shipyards must be privatized completely or Introduce a desi version of Nunn-McCurdy Amendment disqualifying PSUs for next one tender or for 5 years with salary cuts upto half and force them to shift to Private shipyards.

true also psu pay employes at govt rates and privates have to pay more too

 

[hurrians]

Focus on r&d and quality culture.

Gora sahib started with rudimentary plane ( by today's standard) and continuously refined his plane ,then he refined his engines, then flight control software then composites ( not in that order of course).

Each of these is a a different field altogether, material science, jet engine technology, coatings, software, metallurgy, software.

He is at this stage because in each sub category he did r&d , private ,public, govt , University, individuals everyone contributed.

Advances in other fields also helped him because a tank ship or plane can't be designed developed when the basic science is not mastered , that's why for critical technology we still have to collaborate with Western powers e.g recent jet engine deal and usa was ready for that deal because even though it's not State of the art ( old generation) but still it's cutting edge enough and he knows we will reach there without help by the next decade.

 

[Samej Jangir]

these are ssgn and k-15 but first answer how many k15 do arihant and s4 can fire

No one needs K15 with such low range. It is utterly useless as a nuclear missile. As for conventional missile, do we need SSBN for that?

Subs with less VLS can be there for Porkies and to train the sailors for upcoming SSBNs and SSNs. We need to train hundreds of sailors. For which we dont have to order Akula anymore.

You are making mountain out of molehill with your tunnel vision.

Yes, as a tech demo and training vessel, Arihant may be useful. But it is in no way a good SSBN. If at all it is made as a true SSBN & not a tech demo or SSN, it is the most useless SSBN ever made

 

[Samej Jangir]

I think Conventional ones are differently difficult than Nuclear subs. We can look at Thai insistence for German
Engines. I mean China and India can build one, but it won't match the silence of other flagships.

Thais are just USA puppets. USA is maintaining a dummy king by propping up its Royal family. Look at the Thai king and you will understand how rotten Thailand is:

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

No one needs K15 with such low range. It is utterly useless as a nuclear missile. As for conventional missile, do we need SSBN for that?

whats the range of k-15 though its easily 1500km (k-15 land version range is 1900km) and you still didnt answer the number of k15 fired by arihant?

 

[Samej Jangir]

whats the range of k-15 though its easily 1500km (k-15 land version range is 1900km) and you still didnt answer the number of k15 fired by arihant?

It is 12 (4 tubes with 3 reloads). But its range of 1500km is still pretty low. Which country are you going to hit by such low range? Why can't you simply fire Agni 3 or Agni 4 missiles for nearby countries instead of Arihant based K15?

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

the strategic deterance of k4 fired from bay of bengal and somewhere far from china (both cover beijing/shanghai)View attachment 250920

It is 12 (4 tubes with 3 reloads). But its range of 1500km is still pretty low. Which country are you going to hit by such low range? Why can't you simply fire Agni 3 or Agni 4 missiles for nearby countries instead of Arihant based K15?

well whats wrong in having options though 2 arihant subs with 24 k-15 and s4 with 48 k15 aimed at pakistan would be credible offence with the agni series indeed also we can have a mix too of k15 and k4s too
with k-15

with k4

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Indian Navy Saving Pakistani citizens ass as always

 

[shade]

Indian Navy Saving Pakistani citizens ass as always

Padosi Mulq will respond to this by hijacking an Indian fishing boat and pretending to rescue them via photo ops showing the "rescue"