Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[arnabmit]

@Aniruddha Mulay @porky_kicker @Haldilal @Lonewolf @Gessler @Okabe Rintarou Is it true that Barak-8 can intercept a Brahmos as close as 500m ? If it's true then it can act as both long range and short range missile right?

During developmental trials of Barak 8 it was tested against India supplied Brahmos. Was successfully intercepted at 2km, IIRC.

We used to comment at that time that India now has a ASM which no one can intercept, because the only SAM which can intercept Brahmos, is Barak 8, and they will never go against each other.

 

[Haldilal]

During developmental trials of Barak 8 it was tested against India supplied Brahmos. Was successfully intercepted at 2km, IIRC.

We used to comment at that time that India now has a ASM which no one can intercept, because the only SAM which can intercept Brahmos, is Barak 8, and they will never go against each other.

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[Gessler]

Ya'll Nibbiars

Baat toh sahi karraha hai.

"BrahMos can't be intercepted" is a jingoistic & baseless claim made by fanboys & marketers. Sure it's faster than turbofan-powered Western SSMs and that introduces complexity into the interception, but this isn't anything that major Western navies haven't thought about or developed countermeasures for.

After all, they've been facing threats from Soviet/Russian SSMs with similar or superior speed than BrahMos for the better part of Cold War - like Kh-31, Kh-15, P-800 Oniks (Yakhont), P-270 Moskit, P-500 Bazalt. P-700 Granit etc etc.

Specialist supersonic target drones were developed to mimic these targets and most contemporary Western SAM systems are proven to be capable of intercepting targets of Mach 2.5 or above, even while sea-skimming.

AQM-127 SLAT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They even purchased a version of real Kh-31s:

Navy Needed Targets To Mimic Supersonic Anti-Ship Missiles So They Bought Real Ones From Russia

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Navy acquired the same Kh-31 missiles that threatened its ships and made them into anti-ship missile targets.

www.thedrive.com

The GQM-163 Coyote (with RAMJET engine just like BrahMos/Kh-31) is the current SSM target, capable of speeds up to Mach 3.8 at altitude and Mach 2.6 while sea-skimming -

The RIM-66 SM-2, RIM-161 SM-3 and RIM-174 SM-6 are all proven against this Superosnic target:

Raytheon SM-6s Missiles intercept targets in 'engage on remote' tests

Raytheon SM-6s Missiles intercept targets in 'engage on remote' tests

www.navyrecognition.com

As is the RIM-116 ESSM point defence SAM:

Sustainment: ASMD – an outstanding success | ADM October 2014 - Australian Defence Magazine

Before construction of the RAN’s Anzac class of eight FFH frigates was completed their need for better weapons and self defence capabilities had long been evident, especially in respect to anti-ship m...

www.australiandefence.com.au

As is the Aster-30:

French Navy frigate successfully intercepts supersonic sea-skimming missile

The French Navy has successfully completed the first aerial target live fire of the US Navy’s GQM-163A Coyote Supersonic Sea Skimming Target (SSST), off the Ile du Levant coast, France.

www.naval-technology.com

I'd bet systems like SeaCeptor/CAMM are equally capable as ESSM if not better at this.

So yeah, thinking that Brahmos is some invincible silver bullet is wrong. What the BrahMos can do has been continuously done by Soviets for over 30-40 years - yes, it's probably the most advanced version of those capabilities, but there's nothing fundamentally unique about BrahMos that makes it un-interceptable where other similar Russian SSMs aren't.

What do people think? We, the Russians, the Chinese are all stupid to be pouring insane amounts into development of Scramjet-based Hypersonic weapons if we think the current crop of Supersonic Ramjet weapons themselves have no answer from the defending side?

PS. and needless to say, no, Barak-8 isn't the only SAM capable of intercepting such SSMs.

 

[ezsasa]

Ya'll Nibbiars

make sure you have confirmed official info before you post such things. SM space is already crazy with speculations, don’t think DFI should join that bandwagon.

@LurkerBaba

 

[Haldilal]

make sure you have confirmed official info before you post such things. SM space is already crazy with speculations, don’t think DFI should join that bandwagon.

@LurkerBaba

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[ezsasa]

Ya'll Nibbiars

In SM, first movers advantage is of prime importance. whichever info is posted first irrespective of validity has more legs than the info posted after. there is a reason bad news travels faster than good news on SM especially micro SM.

 

[Haldilal]

make sure you have confirmed official info before you post such things. SM space is already crazy with speculations, don’t think DFI should join that bandwagon.

@LurkerBaba

In SM, first movers advantage is of prime importance. whichever info is posted first irrespective of validity has more legs than the info posted after. there is a reason bad news travels faster than good news on SM especially micro SM.

Ya'll Nibbiars technically this post is correct as Barak 8 are the most capable missile of intercepting with more chances. Even the SeaCeptor chances are less when comes to Intercepting the Brahmos as the reaction times is less even if capable of detecting at the 50 plus Km range as discussed before.

 

[Gessler]

Ya'll Nibbiars technically this post is correct as Barak 8 are the most capable missile of intercepting with more chances. Even the SeaCeptor chances are less when comes to Intercepting the Brahmos as the reaction times is less even if capable of detecting at the 50 plus Km range as discussed before.

I've no idea how the exact reaction times (from point of detection, designation of target & launch order executed by fire control) of these systems is public info? That is among most classified information.

P.S. speaking of detection, the old SPY-1A/B used on Ticonderoga cruiser (first-gen AEGIS) was capable of going from a cold-start to turning on system, energizing the radar & detecting a target in around 10 seconds flat. This is now declassified info I obtained via the ship brief prepared by Aaron Amick on the Tico cruiser (currently only available on his Patreon):

https://www.patreon.com/posts/ticonderoga-ship-58069920

 

[Haldilal]

I've no idea how the exact reaction times (from point of detection, designation of target & launch order executed by fire control) of these systems is public info? That is among most classified information.

P.S. speaking of detection, the old SPY-1A/B used on Ticonderoga cruiser (first-gen AEGIS) was capable of going from a cold-start to turning on system, energizing the radar & detecting a target in around 10 seconds flat. This is now declassified info I obtained via the ship brief prepared by Aaron Amick on the Tico cruiser (currently only available on his Patreon):

https://www.patreon.com/posts/ticonderoga-ship-58069920

Ya'll Nibbiars but claiming Brahmos can be easily intercepted is a pure fantasy. It's hard and difficult not a easy play as some were saying before on the SM.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars but all have to agree that the interception of Brahmos is a hard job for any missile defenc systems. Can't make fun just because it's heavy or old. It's still an extremely capable systems. And down playing is sheer Ignorance's.

 

[not so dravidian]

Ya'll Nibbiars but all have to agree that the interception of Brahmos is a hard job for any missile defenc systems. Can't make fun just because it's heavy or old. It's still an extremely capable systems. And down playing is sheer Ignorance's.

Definitely, however a 3 layered AD with mature crew cud

 

[arnabmit]

Ya'll Nibbiars

Dude! Opinion/discussion/chatter shouldn't be posted from official account.
Only post cold hard verifiable facts.

 

[Haldilal]

Dude! Opinion/discussion/chatter shouldn't be posted from official account.
Only post cold hard verifiable facts.

Ya'll Nibbiars then don't pretend and confuse.

 

[Gessler]

Ya'll Nibbiars but claiming Brahmos can be easily intercepted is a pure fantasy. It's hard and difficult not a easy play as some were saying before on the SM.

Ya'll Nibbiars but all have to agree that the interception of Brahmos is a hard job for any missile defenc systems. Can't make fun just because it's heavy or old. It's still an extremely capable systems. And down playing is sheer Ignorance's.

Might well be...but what are we comparing with? "Hard" to intercept compared to what? "Hard" to intercept for who? Us, the Chinese, the Pakistanis or the Americans?

There are a hundred variables that go into determining the success or failure of an interception.

The power & fidelity of the ship's sensors, the competence & training of the crew, the state of readiness they are in, the signature reflected or emitted by the target in a variety of spectrums (radar, IR, etc), the altitude & speed of the target, whether or not terminal maneuvers are employed, the altitude & speed of the intercepting SAM & its ability to keep up with such maneuvers, the number of targets fired (salvo or single), the number of SAMs fired to intercept each target, atmospheric conditions, sea state & the ability of the ship's CMS to account for such variables, whether or not an EW/jamming environment is present which is hindering the ship's ability to accurately track incoming threats, whether or not off-board targeting cues are available allowing the ship to cross-reference the positions & vectors of the targets its seeing....etc etc etc

Beyond these (and several other) countless variables....a value judgment like "easy" or "hard" is difficult to make.

Is the BrahMos a good weapon system for anti-surface warfare that meets our current needs? I'd say Hell Yeah.

But a statement such as "better than X" or "worse than Y" is not something I'm comfortable making. If you (or anyone else) believes they have enough information on hand to make that judgement, good for you/them.

 

[Haldilal]

Might well be...but what are we comparing with? "Hard" to intercept compared to what? "Hard" to intercept for who? Us, the Chinese, the Pakistanis or the Americans?

There are a hundred variables that go into determining the success or failure of an interception.

The power & fidelity of the ship's sensors, the competence & training of the crew, the state of readiness they are in, the signature reflected or emitted by the target in a variety of spectrums (radar, IR, etc), the altitude & speed of the target, whether or not terminal maneuvers are employed, the altitude & speed of the intercepting SAM & its ability to keep up with such maneuvers, the number of targets fired (salvo or single), the number of SAMs fired to intercept each target, atmospheric conditions, sea state & the ability of the ship's CMS to account for such variables, whether or not an EW/jamming environment is present which is hindering the ship's ability to accurately track incoming threats, whether or not off-board targeting cues are available allowing the ship to cross-reference the positions & vectors of the targets its seeing....etc etc etc

Beyond these (and several other) countless variables....a value judgment like "easy" or "hard" is difficult to make.

Is the BrahMos a good weapon system for anti-surface warfare that meets our current needs? I'd say Hell Yeah.

But a statement such as "better than X" or "worse than Y" is not something I'm comfortable making. If you (or anyone else) believes they have enough information on hand to make that judgement, good for you/them.

Ya'll Nibbiars itna confusion math kar warna yaha sub ko chakar ane wala hai ki kya ho raha hai.

 

[arnabmit]

Ya'll Nibbiars then don't pretend and confuse.

Pretend? Pretend what?
You want me to stop posting? Fine!

 

[Haldilal]

Pretend? Pretend what?
You want me to stop posting? Fine!

Ya'll Nibbiars and here by Fascist Modi Resigns.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Navy replacing Russian 100mm main gun with Oto-Melara 76mm licensed-manufactured locally.

 

[flanker99]

Navy replacing Russian 100mm main gun with Oto-Melara 76mm licensed-manufactured locally.

Yet the new rusky frigates we are getting again have the a100's on them...god knows what they are thinking

 

[sanghi neta]

a noob question
how is a 76 mm gun better than 100 mm gun?