Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Tridev123

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Offer is for 3 or more subs, at $250 million per sub, if Russia is refurbishing them to Project 636.3 standards, then IMO its a really good deal.
Probably one of the reasons for Navy not ordering additional Scorpene subs is that they will cost around $700 million per sub
I don't totally disagree. If new submarines cannot be built in Indian shipyards quickly enough then in a crisis situation this offer can be considered.

But I think most people would agree that the Scorpenes are a generation ahead of the Kilo class subs. Whether a study has been undertaken to compare the performance of the two on various parameters is unknown. The Kilos were a deadly class of subs when they were first introduced and they have rendered yeoman service to the Indian Navy. But we should remember that they are now decades old.

Why should Russia offer only the Kilos when they can push for later generation subs like the derivatives of the Lada class etc. I support the P75I programme tender to be given to an Russian submarine design which will have an VLS system to fire the Brahmos supersonic anti ship missile and which will in the future allow us to also fit the Nirbhay(ITCM) and other indigenously developed anti ship cruise missiles. Also the Russian sub should come with an proven AIP system. Russia can perhaps offer us an bigger sub of displacement above 3000 tonnes in order to fit in an increased number of missiles and other weapons. If Russia can fulfill these basic requirements then preference should be given to an Russian submarine.

Now many people will ask, why Russia when the West probably offers better technology. The reason would be strategic. Depending fully 100% on the West may not be the right option. Whether it is France or Germany or any other European country, they cannot resist demands from Washington. The entire technology of the sub may be shared comprising our operations.

Why do you think that we avoided giving the order to the US for the MMRCA. The reality is that American planes and their accompanying armaments are top class.
But since they come with all sorts of strings attached they will hinder our strategic autonomy.

Probably when the trust factor between the two countries becomes much better the we would be willing to depend on Uncle Sam. That is for the future.
 

Tridev123

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An idea to consider for our Conventional Submarine programme.
The original plan was
6 nos P75 submarines(Scorpenes) + 6 nos P75 I submarines
Followed by 12 nos of an Indian Designed, Indian Manufactured submarine.
Total = 24 submarines

Why don't we change it to
12 nos P75 submarines (Scorpenes) + 12 nos P75 I submarines
Followed by 24 nos of an Indian Designed, Indian Manufactured submarine.
Total = 48 submarines

There will be technology upgrades batch wise for each submarine line. In order to keep the submarine contemporary. The orders can be split 50/50 between the PSU shipyards and the private shipyards. The manufacturing can run parallelly. For example MDL can build 6 units of the P75I subs while L&T can simultaneously build 6 units of P75I subs.

By China's standards an building programme for 48 submarines will be OK.
But will the numbers be too much for India and we should aim lower. But we should keep in mind that the 48 subs will be delivered over two decades or more.

The SSN and SSBN programme is separate.
 

Haldilal

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An idea to consider for our Conventional Submarine programme.
The original plan was
6 nos P75 submarines(Scorpenes) + 6 nos P75 I submarines
Followed by 12 nos of an Indian Designed, Indian Manufactured submarine.
Total = 24 submarines

Why don't we change it to
12 nos P75 submarines (Scorpenes) + 12 nos P75 I submarines
Followed by 24 nos of an Indian Designed, Indian Manufactured submarine.
Total = 48 submarines

There will be technology upgrades batch wise for each submarine line. In order to keep the submarine contemporary. The orders can be split 50/50 between the PSU shipyards and the private shipyards. The manufacturing can run parallelly. For example MDL can build 6 units of the P75I subs while L&T can simultaneously build 6 units of P75I subs.

By China's standards an building programme for 48 submarines will be OK.
But will the numbers be too much for India and we should aim lower. But we should keep in mind that the 48 subs will be delivered over two decades or more.

The SSN and SSBN programme is separate.
Ya'll Nibbiars Paisa?.

 

Tridev123

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Ya'll Nibbiars Paisa?.

A funny way to put across your point.
Yes ultimately everything rests on the ability to finance.

But for the Chinese such type of mega shipbuilding plans are routine.
Look at the way they are churning out destroyers frigates, submarines etc.
That too of not bad quality.

If our economy really takes off and funds are not an problem, should we increase our submarine force levels dramatically. The spending would be spread over 20 years (appx).

The question is
Does India need so many submarines over the next two decades.

It is a serious question. I hope you don't respond with a meme.
What should our submarine force levels be to counter the Pakistani and Chinese naval threat in the Indian Ocean and other areas. Looking into the future.
 

Haldilal

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A funny way to put across your point.
Yes ultimately everything rests on the ability to finance.

But for the Chinese such type of mega shipbuilding plans are routine.
Look at the way they are churning out destroyers frigates, submarines etc.
That too of not bad quality.

If our economy really takes off and funds are not an problem, should we increase our submarine force levels dramatically. The spending would be spread over 20 years (appx).

The question is
Does India need so many submarines over the next two decades.

It is a serious question. I hope you don't respond with a meme.
What should our submarine force levels be to counter the Pakistani and Chinese naval threat in the Indian Ocean and other areas. Looking into the future.
Ya'll Nibbiars simple increase the budget by 25 perceny then the capital expenditure will be doubled and can have as many as submarine within a decade.
 

Tridev123

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Ya'll Nibbiars simple increase the budget by 25 perceny then the capital expenditure will be doubled and can have as many as submarine within a decade.
A very simple answer without detailed analysis of the present Pakistan Navy force structure and future acquisition plans. Ditto for the Chinese Navy.

Anyway Bro. 🙏.
 

Haldilal

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A very simple answer without detailed analysis of the present Pakistan Navy force structure and future acquisition plans. Ditto for the Chinese Navy.

Anyway Bro. 🙏.
Ya'll Nibbiars yeh sab Maine December mein kiya tha kuch phaiyda nahi jab tak budget 100 billion dollars se upar nahi jata.
 
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Haldilal

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Ya'll Nibbiars China may become the first navy to achieve 600 Ships in last 60 years.

Ya'll Nibbiars Reposting again here.

Ya'll Nibbiars if IN want to have the submarine Surfac Combatant and the aircraft carriers here the way.

1. Continue the Kalevari Class Submarines with a longer variant for the VLS. Each will roughly cost 4,000 crores. 6 Submarine Total cost 24,000 Crores.

2. Construct another Vikrant Class IAC sister ship. Cost 20,000 crore.

3. Continue the Kamorta line along with the private shipyards with upgrades and VLS. 12 Corvettes each coating around 2,000 crores. Total cost 24,000 crores.

4. Continue the stretched ASW-SWC 8 corvettes each coating 700 crores. Total cost 5,600 crores.

5. Continue the Shaurya OPV with major upgrades and 24 VLS. each 12 OPV's costing 1,200 crores. Total Cost 14,400 crores.

6. Continue the Project 17 A class Frigate with a 17 B class programme. 12 frigates Each costing 4,000 crores. Total Cost 48,000 Crores.

7. Continue the Project 15 B with a Project 15 C programme. Total 6 Destroyers each costing 7,000 crores. Total Cost 42,000 Crores.

8. And make the MRSV into a 25,000 Tonnes Programme 4 Vessels with each costing 5,500 Crores.

9 . The Project 75A will cost 40,000 crores for 6 vessels.

10 . The Project 18 Class Destroyers could cost 10,000 crores each for six will cost 60,000 crores.

And you can have all the wishlist in 3,00,000 crores. And that's also 73 vessels excluding the current under funding or Constructions.

See Ya'll Nibbiars everyone want bigger and better. But have to compromise in order to have all things.

And finally the IN will have 164 Combat Ships in services.

If IN wants total achievable of more than 200 ships then have to shell extra for additional other type of vessel.

And if the Budget is Capital Expenditure's budget is doubled then a Navy of 237 Warships is achievable but will require extreme stress on the shipbuding, Time Frame, No of personal, Training and the Infrastructure support's.
 

Aditya Ballal

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Ya'll Nibbiars China may become the first navy to achieve 600 Ships in last 60 years.

Ya'll Nibbiars Reposting again here.

Ya'll Nibbiars if IN want to have the submarine Surfac Combatant and the aircraft carriers here the way.

1. Continue the Kalevari Class Submarines with a longer variant for the VLS. Each will roughly cost 4,000 crores. 6 Submarine Total cost 24,000 Crores.

2. Construct another Vikrant Class IAC sister ship. Cost 20,000 crore.

3. Continue the Kamorta line along with the private shipyards with upgrades and VLS. 12 Corvettes each coating around 2,000 crores. Total cost 24,000 crores.

4. Continue the stretched ASW-SWC 8 corvettes each coating 700 crores. Total cost 5,600 crores.

5. Continue the Shaurya OPV with major upgrades and 24 VLS. each 12 OPV's costing 1,200 crores. Total Cost 14,400 crores.

6. Continue the Project 17 A class Frigate with a 17 B class programme. 12 frigates Each costing 4,000 crores. Total Cost 48,000 Crores.

7. Continue the Project 15 B with a Project 15 C programme. Total 6 Destroyers each costing 7,000 crores. Total Cost 42,000 Crores.

8. And make the MRSV into a 25,000 Tonnes Programme 4 Vessels with each costing 5,500 Crores.

9 . The Project 75A will cost 40,000 crores for 6 vessels.

10 . The Project 18 Class Destroyers could cost 10,000 crores each for six will cost 60,000 crores.

And you can have all the wishlist in 3,00,000 crores. And that's also 73 vessels excluding the current under funding or Constructions.

See Ya'll Nibbiars everyone want bigger and better. But have to compromise in order to have all things.

And finally the IN will have 164 Combat Ships in services.

If IN wants total achievable of more than 200 ships then have to shell extra for additional other type of vessel.

And if the Budget is Capital Expenditure's budget is doubled then a Navy of 237 Warships is achievable but will require extreme stress on the shipbuding, Time Frame, No of personal, Training and the Infrastructure support's.
VLS for an OPV?
 

Akula

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Ya'll Nibbiars China may become the first navy to achieve 600 Ships in last 60 years.

Ya'll Nibbiars Reposting again here.

Ya'll Nibbiars if IN want to have the submarine Surfac Combatant and the aircraft carriers here the way.

1. Continue the Kalevari Class Submarines with a longer variant for the VLS. Each will roughly cost 4,000 crores. 6 Submarine Total cost 24,000 Crores.

2. Construct another Vikrant Class IAC sister ship. Cost 20,000 crore.

3. Continue the Kamorta line along with the private shipyards with upgrades and VLS. 12 Corvettes each coating around 2,000 crores. Total cost 24,000 crores.

4. Continue the stretched ASW-SWC 8 corvettes each coating 700 crores. Total cost 5,600 crores.

5. Continue the Shaurya OPV with major upgrades and 24 VLS. each 12 OPV's costing 1,200 crores. Total Cost 14,400 crores.

6. Continue the Project 17 A class Frigate with a 17 B class programme. 12 frigates Each costing 4,000 crores. Total Cost 48,000 Crores.

7. Continue the Project 15 B with a Project 15 C programme. Total 6 Destroyers each costing 7,000 crores. Total Cost 42,000 Crores.

8. And make the MRSV into a 25,000 Tonnes Programme 4 Vessels with each costing 5,500 Crores.

9 . The Project 75A will cost 40,000 crores for 6 vessels.

10 . The Project 18 Class Destroyers could cost 10,000 crores each for six will cost 60,000 crores.

And you can have all the wishlist in 3,00,000 crores. And that's also 73 vessels excluding the current under funding or Constructions.

See Ya'll Nibbiars everyone want bigger and better. But have to compromise in order to have all things.

And finally the IN will have 164 Combat Ships in services.

If IN wants total achievable of more than 200 ships then have to shell extra for additional other type of vessel.

And if the Budget is Capital Expenditure's budget is doubled then a Navy of 237 Warships is achievable but will require extreme stress on the shipbuding, Time Frame, No of personal, Training and the Infrastructure support's.
The biggest problem we will face is imports. We have to develop propulsion, radars, sensors and many other equipments which will be used on ships. For a small number imports may be good but for large number of ships we will be wasting our money.
 

Aditya Ballal

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The biggest problem we will face is imports. We have to develop propulsion, radars, sensors and many other equipments which will be used on ships. For a small number imports may be good but for large number of ships we will be wasting our money.
Is there any planned project for propulsion systems other than the screwdrivergiri of HAL for GE LM2500 and Rolls Royce MT-30 as well as the GTRE Marine Kaveri ? But I don’t think marine Kaveri is powerful enough for larger ships
 

Pash

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LOL


Interestingly, the Zvezdochka shipyard made a formal offer for the sale of three Kilo class conventional submarines to India at a token price of one rupee. In a presentation made to Admiral Singh, the Russian side said it wants India to pay only for the approximate $250 million refit cost of each boat (Rs 1,857 crore). India last opted for this acquisition model when it acquired the mothballed former Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov in 2004, for an eventual refit cost of over $2 billion.

Now my Question?

Is it not possible to have these boats and have refit in India? Russia can be paid for consultancy. Upgrade can be done with many Indian parts, equipments and parts from friendly countries (Russian and non-Russian). It will be cheaper and Indian docks will learn.
 
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