Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

flanker99

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while everyone is focused on mdl grse has done good work on their rajabagan dock.any idea if these are dry docks just building.
 

flanker99

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it isnt letting me upload an image from my pc just asking for links.help pls
 

Tanmay

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it isnt letting me upload an image from my pc just asking for links.help pls
Use option A if you want to copy image link from Google, twitter (doesnt waste forum storage)

Use option B if you are uploading it from your own PC folder.

Take screeenshot or Snipping Tool to take google earth screenshot
01.PNG
 

Sanghibilla

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Use option A if you want to copy image link from Google, twitter (doesnt waste forum storage)

Use option B if you are uploading it from your own PC folder.

Take screeenshot or Snipping Tool to take google earth screenshot
View attachment 52046
For some reason that attch files option is not showing in either my phone or pc.anyone else facing the same problem?
 

utubekhiladi

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Why can't we some short or medium range missiles in such boats? T90 and Arjun can fire them, so I think such vessels can too.
good suggestions..

this is a patrol boat of car-nicobar class. this is not a ladaku jahaaz like destroyers and frigates :lehappy:

all boats of car-nicobar class ship is equiped with
 

Rohan Naik

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good suggestions..

this is a patrol boat of car-nicobar class. this is not a ladaku jahaaz like destroyers and frigates :lehappy:

all boats of car-nicobar class ship is equiped with
I understand that it's not a ladakoo jahaz, however, adopting new strategies and utilising existing paltforms for omni role purposes. Just imagine, if these ships are all connected together, using links, they can share critical info quickly. If we can build sonars that can identify enemy subs, then they all can share loads and dependency on dedicated sub hunting ships will be less.
I strongly think we should focus on weapons than platforms.
 

utubekhiladi

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I understand that it's not a ladakoo jahaz, however, adopting new strategies and utilising existing paltforms for omni role purposes. Just imagine, if these ships are all connected together, using links, they can share critical info quickly. If we can build sonars that can identify enemy subs, then they all can share loads and dependency on dedicated sub hunting ships will be less.
I strongly think we should focus on weapons than platforms.

all navy ships are connected using satellite datalinks and satcomms and can share live sit rep in real time. car-nicobar class ships already have surface radar and navigation radar among various other things

but you need to understand something, this ships are designed to be small, versatile and highly maneuverable. most importantly they are very very fast in waters. INS wants these kind of ships to be around 250 - 350 tonnes.

each class ships of INS has different purpose, abilities and responsibility. the purpose of car-nicobar class is patrolling and securing mainland against small to medium threats. some ships of Sukanya class patrol boats even have ballistic missile onboard. sukanya class ships have different role and purpose though.

now lets say if u want add missile, brahmos to car-nicobar class ship. then you need to raise the height of the ship by at-least another 65ft. the length of brahmos missile is 28ft without launchers and other electronics. since now you have brahmos, you will want space to install dedicated radars, electronics, launchers, storage room, computers etc.. now you have increased the overall size of the ship. since the ship size is increased, you now want more powerful propellers and engines..

all this extra additions contributes to the bottom line "weight". by doing all this, the small fast attack patrol boat is now become corvette class size boat which is weighing around 500 tonnes. the heavier the ship, the slower it will be and less maneuverable it is going to be.

let me ask you this, why are you not suggesting that we should also add missiles to Shardul-class ships??? the answer is simple, shardul class ship such as INS Kesari & INS Aariavat have different purpose and role.. why are we not adding a heli landing strip in INS Jyoti? because INS jyoti has different abilities.

i hope this answers your questions.
 

Rohan Naik

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all navy ships are connected using satellite datalinks and satcomms and can share live sit rep in real time. car-nicobar class ships already have surface radar and navigation radar among various other things

but you need to understand something, this ships are designed to be small, versatile and highly maneuverable. most importantly they are very very fast in waters. INS wants these kind of ships to be around 250 - 350 tonnes.

each class ships of INS has different purpose, abilities and responsibility. the purpose of car-nicobar class is patrolling and securing mainland against small to medium threats. some ships of Sukanya class patrol boats even have ballistic missile onboard. sukanya class ships have different role and purpose though.

now lets say if u want add missile, brahmos to car-nicobar class ship. then you need to raise the height of the ship by at-least another 65ft. the length of brahmos missile is 28ft without launchers and other electronics. since now you have brahmos, you will want space to install dedicated radars, electronics, launchers, storage room, computers etc.. now you have increased the overall size of the ship. since the ship size is increased, you now want more powerful propellers and engines..

all this extra additions contributes to the bottom line "weight". by doing all this, the small fast attack patrol boat is now become corvette class size boat which is weighing around 500 tonnes. the heavier the ship, the slower it will be and less maneuverable it is going to be.

let me ask you this, why are you not suggesting that we should also add missiles to Shardul-class ships??? the answer is simple, shardul class ship such as INS Kesari & INS Aariavat have different purpose and role.. why are we not adding a heli landing strip in INS Jyoti? because INS jyoti has different abilities.

i hope this answers your questions.
It does. Thanks a lot. However, things you apprised me on are somewhat known to me.
but now has enriched my knowledge better than before.
 

Karthi

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India needs aircraft carriers – large ones with assisted take off at that, to secure the seas of the Indo-Pacific, to maintain peace, secure trade routes, provide security to the region, and in the event of a war, bring in lethal firepower. However, due to resource crunch with a slowing economy which has been further impacted by Covid-19, there is now a question mark over the acquisition of the proposed 65,000 ton aircraft carrier called Vishal with the Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat saying that the navy will have to prioritise between submarines and aircraft carriers. The navy has made it clear that it needs three carriers so that it has at least two in operation at all times – one for each of India’s seaboards.

India will be the world’s third largest economy in less than a decade. Trade constitutes 40% of its GDP, and nearly 20 million of its people live in foreign lands, many of which are in volatile regions. The navy needs all the resources to secure the country’s interests. Asking it to prioritise submarines over aircraft carriers is like asking the Air Force to prioritise air defence systems over fighter jets. While submarines are best for sea denial, the aircraft carriers are for sea control and power projection. Both are important and needed for a major power like India.

The arguments against aircraft carriers are, that they are expensive, obsolete and vulnerable to new generation of missiles. It is akin to the obituaries of the tanks which have been written for decades now in the face of advanced anti tank missiles, attack helicopters and close air support aircrafts. But the tank continues to survive.

Vishal is estimated to cost about $7 billion to build and a further $5-8 billion for its complement of fighter jets, helicopters and surveillance aircrafts. The cost of the aircraft carrier cannot be considered in isolation. It provides a mobile air base that can be called to action in any part of the world, particularly in areas of India’s interests – something that shore based or island based aircrafts cannot. Carriers take a decade to build with the costs spread over that period. It will need an initial funding to start the work and progressively increase as systems get integrated and the fighter jets ordered towards the latter half of construction. Moreover, an aircraft carrier has a life of nearly 50 years, which is twice other warships. That’s not a bad investment.

India’s economy will grow to about $4 trillion by 2025 and about $7 trillion by 2030. Assuming the current spending of 1.5% of the GDP on defence to remain stagnant, it will translate to $60 billion by 2025 and $100 billion by 2030 – net of pensions, and a cumulative spending of over $600 billion on defence during this decade. Of this, the navy will get $90 billion at its current allocation of 15%, of which nearly $50 billion will be capex.

The navy’s big ticket projects-its submarines will take nearly 40% of its decadal capex. The six P75i submarines are expected to cost $7 billion. The navy could opt to continue the existing Scorpene class with the addition of air independent propulsion. This could save at least $2 billion. The other program is the six nuclear powered attack submarines which are expected to cost about $14 billion. A higher defence allocation and an increase in the navy’s share cannot be ruled out considering the geopolitical scenario. Theatre commands, better inter-services procurement co-ordination & increase in indigenization reducing costly imports – will save money for modernisation. Although the current situation looks tight, money for a third aircraft carrier can be provisioned.

Aircraft carriers are not obsolete. The US operates ten and is building a new class of carriers, first of which is undergoing trials. The UK after pondering over the need for carriers went ahead and commissioned two. China has two and plans to operate at least six. Threatened by China’s increasing naval muscle, pacifist Japan announced to convert its two Izumo class of helicopter carriers into aircraft carriers. France operates the only nuclear powered carrier apart from the US.

An aircraft carrier is not a sitting duck as it is made out to be. It is escorted by destroyers, frigates and corvettes and submarines. For India, these are armed with the 290km range Brahmos supersonic anti ship cruise missiles which can take out enemy warships at that distance in about five minutes, travelling at 3,700 kmph. The sea skimming Brahmos will not be picked up by enemy ships until it’s too late. India is working on a longer range Brahmos that can strike up to 600 kms. These combatants including the carrier carry air defence systems to counter incoming missiles. A carrier is not easy to sink even if a missile hits it.

The carrier’s fighter jets, currently the MiG-29K on India’s INS Vikramaditya with a combat range of 850kms on fleet defence mission will be able to neutralise enemy combatants at long distances before they get close to the carrier. In the future, the carriers will be armed with even more advanced and potent fighter jets with Boeing’s F-18 Super Hornet and Dassault’s Rafale competing for the 57 jet program. India plans indigenous carrier borne fighter jets which will reduce acquisition costs. There are anti submarine helicopters onboard and the Indian Navy has the advanced P-8 surveillance, anti-submarine and anti-surface warship aircrafts – armed with anti-ship missiles and torpedoes. In the future there will be directed energy based defence systems.

With its air complement, carrier groups are able to control a huge expanse of the seas compared to other surface and sub-surface platforms on their own. In a conflict situation, say with Pakistan – a carrier task force will be able to bottle up Pakistan navy close to its shores and completely dominate the seas including cutting off Pakistan’s supplies and undertake offensive action against it. Or make it difficult for Chinese navy to enter the Indian Ocean to undertake offensive missions.

There is a thought that India should perhaps make another Vikrant class carrier which is under construction. The Vikrant is a 45,000 ton carrier similar to INS Vikramaditya. However, it will carry only about 26 MiG-29Ks operating off a ski jump, which restricts fuel and weapons payload. With a dismal availability rate of less than 50%, only about a dozen jets are available for operations. This restricts offensive missions, with majority of the jets on fleet defence duties. Reduced fuel load reduces the range, forcing the carrier to get closer to the enemy for any offensive operation – making the carrier group vulnerable to the enemy’s shore-based defences. A 65,000 ton carrier with catapult assisted takeoff will enable its fighters to carry full fuel and weapons load. Catapult assisted takeoff generates more sortie which is ideal for offensive missions. If the navy acquires either the Rafale or the Super Hornet, its offensive capabilities will increase tremendously. This carrier will also be able to launch surveillance and early warning aircrafts which cannot be operated from ski-jump carriers.

The Indian Navy’s area of responsibility ranges from the east coast of Africa to the Western Pacific, where it regularly deploys its assets for joint exercises, goodwill missions, military diplomacy and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. With nearly 50% of India’s trade passing through South China Sea and China claiming the entire sea as its own, the Indian Navy will be called upon to secure India’s trade and increasingly likely to be challenged by the Chinese navy which objects the presence of foreign navies in the sea. While India does not conduct any freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea, China protests the Indian Navy’s presence.

The Western side carries the other 50% of India’s trade and 80% of its oil supply. The Gulf region is home to over eight million Indians and is one of the most volatile regions of the world. As a growing power, the navy’s area of responsibility will likely include the west coast of Africa in the future where India has considerable investments and growing. In fact India’s largest trading partner in Africa is Nigeria.

The argument, at least at the military level, is not against aircraft carriers – but money, leading to the question of prioritisation. India’s slowing economy is hurting its defence preparedness. But the question is, can India take the decision to not build a third aircraft carrier, based on what is expected to be a temporary economic slowdown – for a platform that will take at least 10 years to build and serve into the 2080s and thereby deprive itself of the most potent tool in military diplomacy?
 

Karthi

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India and the Philippines are in talks for the purchase of several defence platforms from India including the Brahmos missile and according to Philippines media and Indian, both have moved past price negotiation talks for the BrahMos cruise missile and intend to conclude a deal in Q3 of 2020 for Truck Based BrahMos Batteries for coastal defence.

Informed sources close to idrw.org have told that Indonesia is also in the early stages of exploring the procurement of the BrahMos missiles from India along with Vietnam and Thailand. The Philippines also has shown interest in acquiring BrahMos for Anti-ship missions to be installed on their frontline warships. Growing Chinese muscularity in the South China Sea (SCS) has prompted many countries in the region to beef up their Naval defenses by acquiring weapons ranging from Patrol boats to submarines to counter growing interference of Beijing in the area.

The Philippines will be getting Anti-Ship BrahMos version for Coastal defense with a range of 290km, Indonesia to has shown interest in Coastal batteries of BrahMos and have been briefed about BrahMos-A which can be carried by a Sukhoi-30MKI. Indonesian Air Force operates a small fleet of Su-27 and Su-30MK2s which will require considerable modifications to the airframe if Indonesia decides also to acquire BrahMos-A also soon.

Idrw.org
 

WolfPack86

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Keep Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd out of Naval helicopter plan: Private companies to govt
New Delhi: The private sector wants the Centre to bar Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd NSE -1.02 % (HAL) from a ₹21,000 crore plan to manufacture naval utility helicopters (NUH), saying that the state-owned company has an undue advantage as it has access to government-funded infrastructure and the ability to cross-subsidise the bid through other nominated orders.

The companies were responding to a question posed by the defence ministry in May on allowing HAL in the competition, which was reserved for the private sector as reported by ET. They said the monopoly of the state-owned enterprise needs to be broken and a level playing field is needed for all bidders.

Four Indian companies – Bharat Forge NSE 0.12 %, Tata Aerospace and Defence, Mahindra Defence Systems and Adani Defence – are contending for the Make in India programme to manufacture 111 naval utility helicopters under the strategic partnership (SP) model in collaboration with a foreign technology provider.

As part of a re-evaluation in May, the defence ministry asked the contenders if the programme had export potential and raised the prospect of HAL being given a chance to be part of it.


HAL Running at Full Capacity’
Sources have also told ET that a proposal has been floated to give HAL a chance to provide an indigenously developed naval version of the advanced light helicopter by developing a few prototypes for evaluation by the service in a three-year timeframe.

In response to the defence ministry’s queries, it’s learnt that the private sector competitors have pointed out that the only large aerospace company India has developed in over seven decades is HAL as it has been given nominated orders and that healthy competition can only be ensured by encouraging others as well.

Among the responses are suggestions that while HAL will remain a major helicopter manufacturer, a second line is needed in the private sector that can become part of the global supply chain and offer viable products for the export market as well. The responses also pointed out that HAL already has an order book of ₹60,000 crore and is set to get another nominated order worth ₹39,000 crore for light combat aircraft (LCA), besides Kamov KA 226T choppers for the army, asserting that it’s already running full capacity.

The Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce & Industry (Ficci) earlier wrote to the defence ministry against a “dilution of the strategic partnership model.” The letter said that the private sector has been struggling for orders despite building capacities in line with the Make in India plan and HAL as a competitor will make it a “non level playing field.”
 

Karthi

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Indian Navy has quietly begun the process of installing RAFAEL-developed BNET-AR SDR-based tactical data-links on both its MiG-29K/KUB & Ka-31 AEW helicopters.


The same Software Defined Radio was selected for Tejas MK1A
 

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