Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

cyclops

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DAC chaired by @DefenceMinIndia approves indigenous construction of six submarines @ Rs 40K Cr. It is 2nd project under MOD's ambitious Strategic Partnership Model aiming to boost GoI's 'Make in India' program. Indigenous production of 111 Utility Heptrs already approved Aug '18 https://t.co/XJFixXwvSR

Construction of six submarines under Project 75(I) will provide major boost to submarine design and manufacturing ecosystem in India through transfer of design, equipment technology & skill sets. DAC also approved acquisition of about 5000 MILAN Anti Tank Guided Msls for the Army
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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^^ Its not scorpene as of now. Its a follow on of Kalvari, what where and when it'll be made is still in question.
It is clearly mentioned that the project is P75I. It is also mentioned that technology transfer will be involved. Where else can a submarine be made indigenously? The place where there is infrastructure to make it. It is not that submarines can be made just about anywhere. Otherwise even pakistan and Bangladesh will start making the submarines.

Good news is that there is going to be trsnsfer of design & technology. This means India will henceforth own the design of scorpene and can make any number as per its needs
 

kunal1123

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Good news is that there is going to be trsnsfer of design & technology. This means India will henceforth own the design of scorpene and can make any number as per its needs
no u are wrong we can not make just by "transfer of design & technology". u need to own ip for that to make as per need .
 

Shashwat

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It is clearly mentioned that the project is P75I. It is also mentioned that technology transfer will be involved. Where else can a submarine be made indigenously? The place where there is infrastructure to make it. It is not that submarines can be made just about anywhere. Otherwise even pakistan and Bangladesh will start making the submarines.

Good news is that there is going to be trsnsfer of design & technology. This means India will henceforth own the design of scorpene and can make any number as per its needs
No you got it wrong. I wasn't talking about the post above but #4640, there it is mentioned its more Kalvari thats why I disputed.

By the time I posted my reply there were 2 more replies above my post.

Even if you got the reference wrong your reply is way off. Yes submarine can be made anywhere thats why they are release a tender because if only limited companies can make it then it'll directly go to MDL since no one else has or can make submarine in India. Ohh and yes Pak and BD can make submarine, don't underestimate others. They have thriving shipbuilding.

Second argument is even more bogus, we had ToT for Type 209 but we are still runnning like a mangy dog for ToT which signifies how lackasdial our approach and capabilities are w.ref to submarine design and building.


What is IP? Why should anyone own IP? What is so critical about IP?
IP is intelectual property, the ownership right to design , r&d, manufacturing and everything else. It can vary from simple design, r&d, know how and what not.

You just cannot make a submarine with ToT, you need to understand every basic facets that goes into making, it the same reason why France fined us more money for our faliue to absorb Scorpene tech.

More than Make In India which revolves around know how we should focus more on know why, thats what drives IP and not screwdriver tech.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Yes submarine can be made anywhere thats why they are release a tender because if only limited companies can make it then it'll directly go to MDL since no one else has or can make submarine in India. Ohh and yes Pak and BD can make submarine, don't underestimate others. They have thriving shipbuilding
This is bogus. Screwdriver technology for submarine is also very hard. Ao, forget manufacturing,even assembly can't be donw without trained workforce. Submarine need special hulls, welding and few other skills which are highly exclusive to submarine making and is not found in shipbuilding. Pakistan and Bangladesh don't even have ship grade ateel and can make only small ships/boats.
You just cannot make a submarine with ToT, you need to understand every basic facets that goes into making, it the same reason why France fined us more money for our faliue to absorb Scorpene tech.
What is TOT? It is exactly that. Also, India makes Arihant submarine. Hence most of the technology is already with India. It is only some technology like using diesel engine which is being obtained as TOT. What is the need for such big words? We are not making some high speed planes
 

Shashwat

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^^ lol, your arrogance offends me. Kalvari steel is also imported 80 HLES isn't made in India and up until very recently probably till Kolkata and beyond all our marine grade steel were being imported from Russia. Its just that Ruskis became narcissistic and thought of us as a miliking cow which forced us to develop our own steel. Only After P15B and other ships we started using indigenous steel.

Shipbuiling in itself is not easy, Pakistan has already built Frigate class ships and can probably ramp up with Chinese know how so can BD, infact PK will be making 4 Type 039B submarine locally. Its not like we have invented all the tech we are making, we still use consultance for all of our ship, not one single mainline ship is built without foreign help. Most of the core items are either imported or built under license, no wonder all the ships are delayed. So we should be wary of whats practical before thumping chest.

IP is the main reason we go back and forth cause if it werent there we wouldn't be looking for help. We are law abiding nation else we'd be stealing and making stuff like chinese do.
 
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Advaidhya Tiwari

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^^ lol, your arrogance offends me. Kalvari steel is also imported 80 HLES isn't made in India and up until very recently probably till Kolkata and beyond all our marine grade steel were being imported from Russia. Its just that Ruskis became narcissistic and thought of us as a miliking cow which forced us to develop our own steel. Only After P15B and other ships we started using indigenous steel.

Shipbuiling in itself is not easy, Pakistan has already built Frigate class ships and can probably ramp up with Chinese know how so can BD, infact PK will be making 4 Type 039B submarine locally. Its not like we have invented all the tech we are making, we still use consultance for all of our ship, not one single mainline ship is built without foreign help. Most of the core items are either imported or built under license, no wonder all the ships are delayed. So we should be wary of whats practical before thumping chest.

IP is the main reason we go back and forth cause if it werent there we wouldn't be looking for help. We are law abiding nation else we'd be stealing and making stuff like chinese do.
Your limited IQ hinders you to think. India always made steel of different grades. The current ship grade steel may have been made only in 2013 but this is not something in use for 20+ years outsude india. The ships until 1990s were made using dimpler grade steel rather than the current one even in countries like Russia. So, you can say India had inferior grade steel but still could make ships.

Pakistan has nothing at all. I'm not saying that pakistan can't make hull of the ship or submarine as that was made even during ww2. But Pakistan can't make anything of modern standards. Several items like ship controls, radar, firing units, electronics etc are completely absent in Pakistan. Making WW2 level steel floating machine is not the point of discussion but about making things like electronics, propulsion etc. Pakistan does not make any submarine and plans of future can be kept for future. Even India assembled submarine in 1990s but that didn't give any proper boos in submarine making technology to India as merely welding hull. No one is saying that Pakistan can't make things made in WW2 like mechanical ships and submarine but these will be highly useless in today's world and the ability to make higher technology items is limited. Assembly of frigates without any indigenous technology is WW2 level skills. Why are you dragging the conversation into ancient technology? Ship building is very easy if we are building WW2 level ships. So, it is incorrect to say that
Shipbuiling in itself is not easy,
Only modern ship building with complex electronics is not easy.

In India, in case of submarine manufacturing, making major parts of hull, electronics, sonar etc have been shown in Arihant class. What is remaining is to modify it into diesel submarines. Of this, Marine engine of upto 3MW is made in India (scorpene needs 4 engine of 1-1.5MW) which takes care of propulsion. The remaining sonar, AIP, electronics can be brought in directly from Arihant class. Only small amount of real technology is missing and that is easily doable by India.

India doesn't import core parts without having substitute. India has substitute for all parts of 1 generation behind and can use them in dire circumstances without having to rely on imports. India only chooses to import latest technology with sole reason of leapfrogging a generation of technology and not out of desperation or lack of choice. Same goes with foreign conaultancy. It is just about saving 2-3 years of time and not due to complete lqck of alternatives. If none agrees to help, then India would have made the technology on its own too by using slightly dated technology in the present and upgrading it over few years. The western countries understand this and hence choose to make money by giving TOT of Technology which India could have made on its own but with 2-3 year delay. The TOT is essentially buying of 2-3 year of time and not any benevolence by Western countries.

What is law abiding? Whose law is to be abided? It is utterly retarded to say such bullshit. Indian govt of the past sabotaged defence intentionally rather than India being incapable of making things on its own. Now, India can make things on its own but instead prefers to import with the aim of reverse engineering and hence leap frogging to higher technology quickly.
 

Haldiram

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IP is the main reason we go back and forth cause if it werent there we wouldn't be looking for help. We are law abiding nation else we'd be stealing and making stuff like chinese do.
Which jurisdiction's law do we come under?

Under WTO, it's illegal to for a nation impose economic sanctions on other nations, but Murica still goes around sanctioning nations.

These laws are more like guiding principles which nations follow as per convenience.
 

Shashwat

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Your limited IQ hinders you to think. India always made steel of different grades. The current ship grade steel may have been made only in 2013 but this is not something in use for 20+ years outsude india. The ships until 1990s were made using dimpler grade steel rather than the current one even in countries like Russia. So, you can say India had inferior grade steel but still could make ships.

Pakistan has nothing at all. I'm not saying that pakistan can't make hull of the ship or submarine as that was made even during ww2. But Pakistan can't make anything of modern standards. Several items like ship controls, radar, firing units, electronics etc are completely absent in Pakistan. Making WW2 level steel floating machine is not the point of discussion but about making things like electronics, propulsion etc. Pakistan does not make any submarine and plans of future can be kept for future. Even India assembled submarine in 1990s but that didn't give any proper boos in submarine making technology to India as merely welding hull. No one is saying that Pakistan can't make things made in WW2 like mechanical ships and submarine but these will be highly useless in today's world and the ability to make higher technology items is limited. Assembly of frigates without any indigenous technology is WW2 level skills. Why are you dragging the conversation into ancient technology? Ship building is very easy if we are building WW2 level ships. So, it is incorrect to say that

Only modern ship building with complex electronics is not easy.

In India, in case of submarine manufacturing, making major parts of hull, electronics, sonar etc have been shown in Arihant class. What is remaining is to modify it into diesel submarines. Of this, Marine engine of upto 3MW is made in India (scorpene needs 4 engine of 1-1.5MW) which takes care of propulsion. The remaining sonar, AIP, electronics can be brought in directly from Arihant class. Only small amount of real technology is missing and that is easily doable by India.

India doesn't import core parts without having substitute. India has substitute for all parts of 1 generation behind and can use them in dire circumstances without having to rely on imports. India only chooses to import latest technology with sole reason of leapfrogging a generation of technology and not out of desperation or lack of choice. Same goes with foreign conaultancy. It is just about saving 2-3 years of time and not due to complete lqck of alternatives. If none agrees to help, then India would have made the technology on its own too by using slightly dated technology in the present and upgrading it over few years. The western countries understand this and hence choose to make money by giving TOT of Technology which India could have made on its own but with 2-3 year delay. The TOT is essentially buying of 2-3 year of time and not any benevolence by Western countries.

What is law abiding? Whose law is to be abided? It is utterly retarded to say such bullshit. Indian govt of the past sabotaged defence intentionally rather than India being incapable of making things on its own. Now, India can make things on its own but instead prefers to import with the aim of reverse engineering and hence leap frogging to higher technology quickly.
To each his own. I am not juding your IQ so dont judge mine, you dont know me so dont get personal. Moreover irrespective of our IQ our discussion are not going to create an addendum to the capabilities of navy or our manufacturing.

You are throwing irrational logic, first your said other countries don't have the capabilities and when I refuted your said we have old tech and thats precisely my point. I never said we can't make steel or others can, if you can't make whats necessary then its nonsense to crib about what we can. Which again answer your second point that we have tech but they are archaic - no one use old stuff in new vessel, unless there are budgetry constrain and that too is not constant and are changed after certain time.

However, your point is way off. We don't have many things which forms the core of shipbuilding as you mentioned, to a point where if not imported we can't make a ship. I'll suggest you read Navy Indigenisation plan 2030, which navy clearly mentions the glaring loopholes that are needed to be curtailed. I am not saying we can't manyfacture its just that we don't have it at present. I am also not saying everything is bunkum all my point is we may have certain point of indigenisation but that shouldnt be the bullying point or bragging right over others. At this point we should be self sufficient in making given the size of our country but we are not. Blame it on shady politics or bogus education but it is what it is.

For layman perspective intrincs like gearbox, shafts, propellors, engine are all imported or license built. I am not even going into advance systems like flight control, radar, weapons etc. In short, we are sort of self sustenance only in making hull and other things like propulsion and radars are out of purview till now. This is coming out of Navy publication and unless you want to disapprove off that, then godspeed. While you are at it also read naval india website on the number of indigenous system kalvari has, it won't be until 5-6th submaine we will reach 50% localisation. Intial 2 ships are almost french/import made.


navy203.png

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/indian-naval-indigenisation-plan-inip-2015-2030

As far as arihant is concerned its a start and it'll be decades before we can brag about how indigenous it is. On paper, yes its India built but give or take more than 70% of the stuff is Russian, including design, now if you want to call it indigenous then you are welcome.

Before anyone else brag about something else small countries are much better off in shipbuilding then we are. Our ships take anything b/w 8-10y to make where the global avg. is around 4. The reason is arm twisting by countries only because we lack know why and know how. Take a look at Vikrant, if we don't do certain things which pleases russia or israel tehy delay the stuff or put us in a lurch. Had we been sufficient in making generic thing we'd be rolling in IAC1, and P15b much earlier.

In the end if someone else can spoon fed us on tech then same can be applied to Pak and BD, they may have all components imported unlike ours but its nothing they can't achieve atleast manufacturing.

I rest my case.

Which jurisdiction's law do we come under?

Under WTO, it's illegal to for a nation impose economic sanctions on other nations, but Murica still goes around sanctioning nations.

These laws are more like guiding principles which nations follow as per convenience.
No jurisdiction, no international law is enforceable. I hope you know that, whether it Int. court of justice, wto or un. You abide by it for the sake of it and it gives a nice impression. It also convey what countries expect from you when you go for bi/multi lateral treaty, your actions speak here. If you flout international rule then people will handle you like that, they may not go for punitive measure but they'd be antsy of you.

A good example in UNCLOS - India had EEZ dispute with Bangladesh and we lost the ICJ appeal. We could have brushed it aside since ICJ verdict is not enforceable but we didn't, we accepted the judgement and handed over EEZ to BD and it gave away a very positive signal that we are here for rule of law and it may bolster our appeal for UNSC PM, unlike south china sea where despite ICJ verdict China keeps bullying and flouting rule.

You can see the whole world getting antsy with China, sure they can't just put sanctions on it but everyone is extra cautious on its intentions and how they flout rules and sooner or later it'll lead to a bigger fallout.
 

Haldiram

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To each his own. I am not juding your IQ so dont judge mine, you dont know me so dont get personal. Moreover irrespective of our IQ our discussion are not going to create an addendum to the capabilities of navy or our manufacturing.

You are throwing irrational logic, first your said other countries don't have the capabilities and when I refuted your said we have old tech and thats precisely my point. I never said we can't make steel or others can, if you can't make whats necessary then its nonsense to crib about what we can. Which again answer your second point that we have tech but they are archaic - no one use old stuff in new vessel, unless there are budgetry constrain and that too is not constant and are changed after certain time.

However, your point is way off. We don't have many things which forms the core of shipbuilding as you mentioned, to a point where if not imported we can't make a ship. I'll suggest you read Navy Indigenisation plan 2030, which navy clearly mentions the glaring loopholes that are needed to be curtailed. I am not saying we can't manyfacture its just that we don't have it at present. I am also not saying everything is bunkum all my point is we may have certain point of indigenisation but that shouldnt be the bullying point or bragging right over others. At this point we should be self sufficient in making given the size of our country but we are not. Blame it on shady politics or bogus education but it is what it is.

For layman perspective intrincs like gearbox, shafts, propellors, engine are all imported or license built. I am not even going into advance systems like flight control, radar, weapons etc. In short, we are sort of self sustenance only in making hull and other things like propulsion and radars are out of purview till now. This is coming out of Navy publication and unless you want to disapprove off that, then godspeed. While you are at it also read naval india website on the number of indigenous system kalvari has, it won't be until 5-6th submaine we will reach 50% localisation. Intial 2 ships are almost french/import made.


View attachment 31573
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/indian-naval-indigenisation-plan-inip-2015-2030

As far as arihant is concerned its a start and it'll be decades before we can brag about how indigenous it is. On paper, yes its India built but give or take more than 70% of the stuff is Russian, including design, now if you want to call it indigenous then you are welcome.

Before anyone else brag about something else small countries are much better off in shipbuilding then we are. Our ships take anything b/w 8-10y to make where the global avg. is around 4. The reason is arm twisting by countries only because we lack know why and know how. Take a look at Vikrant, if we don't do certain things which pleases russia or israel tehy delay the stuff or put us in a lurch. Had we been sufficient in making generic thing we'd be rolling in IAC1, and P15b much earlier.

In the end if someone else can spoon fed us on tech then same can be applied to Pak and BD, they may have all components imported unlike ours but its nothing they can't achieve atleast manufacturing.

I rest my case.



No jurisdiction, no international law is enforceable. I hope you know that, whether it Int. court of justice, wto or un. You abide by it for the sake of it and it gives a nice impression. It also convey what countries expect from you when you go for bi/multi lateral treaty, your actions speak here. If you flout international rule then people will handle you like that, they may not go for punitive measure but they'd be antsy of you.

A good example in UNCLOS - India had EEZ dispute with Bangladesh and we lost the ICJ appeal. We could have brushed it aside since ICJ verdict is not enforceable but we didn't, we accepted the judgement and handed over EEZ to BD and it gave away a very positive signal that we are here for rule of law and it may bolster our appeal for UNSC PM, unlike south china sea where despite ICJ verdict China keeps bullying and flouting rule.

You can see the whole world getting antsy with China, sure they can't just put sanctions on it but everyone is extra cautious on its intentions and how they flout rules and sooner or later it'll lead to a bigger fallout.
There's several evidences of India having followed the rule. Is there an instance of us having benefited from that behavior?

India has dragged the US to WTO court. Has that yielded any results? the people who make multilateral laws expect India to follow all rules and be "nice" while they don't have any reciprocal obligations towards us. Who do we have to please by being nice and what do we get from it?

They had arrested our diplomat Khobragade in contravention of international law, India responded by encircling their embassy in Delhi, they let her go immediately.

We had a land swap agreement with Bangladesh through bilateral agreement. We ended up giving land but at least got the closure of our boundary. Something that gives quick closure with one-on-one agreements is still acceptable, even with a small compromise. But subjecting our national interests to international law, whose drafting we haven't been a part of, is like Imperialism 2.0.

The liberation of Bangladesh itself was a contravention of international law. Still we did it. Finally they changed the law in the UN to accept Bangladesh as a new nation. These things are very flexible if nations show some spine.

India has always benefited from unilateral actions or bilateral settlements. We took Kashmir to multilateral legal forum and now it is stuck. We unilaterally annexed Sikkim, and no one batted an eye. It all depends on whether one wants to resolve things in our favor or postpone its resolution indefinitely by involving international courts. Under international laws like NPT, CTBT which were drafted specifically to target India it was illegal for us to become a nuclear state, but still we did it. India should make it clear that we will follow only those laws of which we are a drafting member. All other laws being forcefully imposed on us are imperialism. They don't yield any results for us for being "nice".
 
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Advaidhya Tiwari

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You are throwing irrational logic, first your said other countries don't have the capabilities and when I refuted your said we have old tech and thats precisely my point. I never said we can't make steel or others can, if you can't make whats necessary then its nonsense to crib about what we can. Which again answer your second point that we have tech but they are archaic - no one use old stuff in new vessel, unless there are budgetry constrain and that too is not constant and are changed after certain time
First of all, technology being used in 1990-5 is not archaic in 2013. So, steel grade of 1990s was not archaic when new grade was invented in India. India is only 1 generation behind. Who said that F16 is archaic compared to F35? Who said that things which are just 1 generation old become obsolete or unwanted? Think before speaking

Don't over exaggerate and make a mountain of a molehill.

However, your point is way off. We don't have many things which forms the core of shipbuilding as you mentioned, to a point where if not imported we can't make a ship. I'll suggest you read Navy Indigenisation plan 2030, which navy clearly mentions the glaring loopholes that are needed to be curtailed. I am not saying we can't manyfacture its just that we don't have it at present. I am also not saying everything is bunkum all my point is we may have certain point of indigenisation but that shouldnt be the bullying point or bragging right over others. At this point we should be self sufficient in making given the size of our country but we are not. Blame it on shady politics or bogus education but it is what it is.
Again you made arbitrary assumption according to your expectations and whims rather than see things properly. Just because India is big doesn't mean that India should have been number one in technology. It is not that USA, CHINA, RUSSIA are puny countries. In fact they are over 3 times as big as India. By the way, India has all the technology needed and can be manufactured into a perfectly working ship. You are only looking at navy indigenisation guide without understanding it. Indian navy has the ability to make steam engine/ boiler engine powered ships. This ship was made by USA in 1992-3 and hence is not obsolete. Indian requirement for advanced propulsion, gearbox etc are only for the latest technology of 10-12MW diesel and 25MW gas turbine engines. Similarly there are several radars, fire controls etc which can be made in India right now but with 1 generation lag as in using PESA radar instead of AESA. All in all, India is fully capable of making ships for war fighting. 1 generation gap is not too big and can be easily overcome due to large population and hence ability to take more damage. Again, think properly before speaking.

For layman perspective intrincs like gearbox, shafts, propellors, engine are all imported or license built. I am not even going into advance systems like flight control, radar, weapons etc. In short, we are sort of self sustenance only in making hull and other things like propulsion and radars are out of purview till now. This is coming out of Navy publication and unless you want to disapprove off that, then godspeed. While you are at it also read naval india website on the number of indigenous system kalvari has, it won't be until 5-6th submaine we will reach 50% localisation. Intial 2 shi
I have explained why the so called indigenisation of gear box and radar is low and their substitute above. Read and understand the difference between not having anything vs not having latest technology

About kalvari, it was a project started in 2004. So, it is Natural that it has french components in initial submarine. That doesn't mean that India can't do it on its own.

Simply taking numbers without understanding te context serves no purpose. Numbers by itself has no value and has to be considered under right context.

As far as arihant is concerned its a start and it'll be decades before we can brag about how indigenous it is. On paper, yes its India built but give or take more than 70% of the stuff is Russian, including design, now if you want to call it indigenous then you are welcome.
Again you made your own theories that 70% stuff is Russian. The SONAR, nuclear reactors, hull etc are all made indigenously and yet you call it as Russian. How does design being Russian or Indian even matter. What matters is where it is manufactured. Unless you have reason to say 70% of the components are Russian I am not interested in your rants.
Before anyone else brag about something else small countries are much better off in shipbuilding then we are. Our ships take anything b/w 8-10y to make where the global avg. is around 4. The reason is arm twisting by countries only because we lack know why and know how. Take a look at Vikrant, if we don't do certain things which pleases russia or israel tehy delay the stuff or put us in a lurch. Had we been sufficient in making generic thing we'd be rolling in IAC1, and P15b much earlier
Again you are speaking nonsense without understanding of context. India is in no hurry to manufacture quickly and hence makes things slow. The idea of slow construction is to keep the industry alive without having to spend too much budget. The idea that Russia or Israel can delay is foolish at best. It is not that aircraft carriers were not made anywhere else. India chooses to get latest technology and endure delays instead of fast tracking things and making 1 generation older design.

Why are you ranting about speed? How does that matter at all? Why should India fasten up construction? What should the workers do after aircraft carrier is constructed? Should we fire the workers? Have common sense about these kind of business decision.

If you flout international rule then people will handle you like that, they may not go for punitive measure but they'd be antsy of you.
What did anyone give India because of following international rule? Who sets international rules? Why should India follow rules set by others? Is the P5 syatem of UNO a fair rule? Is IMF dealing in dollars which USA can print arbitrarily a fair rule? Why should India honour others rule? Why should India not set the rules for others to follow? Can you tell me one sinhle benefits?
 
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Shashwat

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As I said I rest my case. You can bring a horse to a water but can't make him drink. You are so entrentched in your ego that you keep on ranting and repeating the same thing.

However.

The idea that Russia or Israel can delay is foolish at best
This argument is beyond ridiculous- every single article is riddled with delays by Russian and Israeli compoent. Each and every single briefing is about how they are working to get things delivered. Obviously you don't expect a govt. employee to come out and rant against a country. That'll be detrimental to relations.

I never said we should product fast or slow, all I said the DELAYS are not something of our own doing but constant hung up with foreign suppliers, reasons may vary. What I said is our avg. is slower than other and the reasons are obvious, unless you live under a rock. Ohh and no govt is stupid enough to balloon a budget just to employee people, that can also be done by creating more order.

As far as why we have such rules for internationals laws. Your questions are valid but we adhere to ghandi's ideology and our culture doesn't allow us to be aggressive. Its not just international law, it dates back to centuries where king pardoned their enemy for their own peril later. You'll understand what I mean if you know history.

@Haldiram - If you think you can muscularly annex a country and get away then you are living in a dream. All those examples you are giving are hogwash. None were militarily captured, they were either voluntarily ceceded by king or by a plebiscite. Crimea is a good example and the following US/EU sanctions on RU.

On the contrary, India isn't turning its back on everything but its not an agressor either. Which I don't think is the right choice either.[/quote][/quote]
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Ohh and no govt is stupid enough to balloon a budget just to employee people, that can also be done by creating more order.
Who said that givt is ballooning budget. Government is lowering budget by slowing things down. Say, an aircraft carrier needs 10 million man hour work. If 1000 people are hired,then it will take 15000 man hours per person. This will be 7.5 years of time. But if 3000 people are hired, it will take 2.5-3 years of time. But the problem is that if 3000 people are hired we will have to build an aircraft carrier every 2.5-3 years to ensure that these people are given sufficient work to ensure their skills are not degrading due to loss of experience. People forget what they did 5-6 years back unless they continue to do the same even now. Hence India makes slowly so as to retain the skilled employees without having to spend too much budget.

These skillset will be very useful during wae times where each skilled employee can train 10 others in short periods of time under their supervision and hence rapidly enhance shipbuilding capabilities. The usage of war is the most important use of defence weapons. Making defence weapons during peace time ia only to develop skillset and minimal deterrence rather than to get decisive advantage.

If you think you can muscularly annex a country and get away then you are living in a dream. All those examples you are giving are hogwash. None were militarily captured, they were either voluntarily ceceded by king or by a plebiscite. Crimea is a good example and the following US/EU sanctions on RU
What sanctions? Who are the EU or USA to put sanctions? What effect did it have on Russia? Russian economy is very strong and these sanctions only strengthened it further. Russian forex reserves and prosperity has been increasing despite low oil prices. Only thing that was hit was ruble rate. But since Russia is a net exporter, lower Ruble only strengthena economy.

As far as why we have such rules for internationals laws. Your questions are valid but we adhere to ghandi's ideology and our culture doesn't allow us to be aggressive. Its not just international law, it dates back to centuries where king pardoned their enemy for their own peril later. You'll understand what I mean if you know history.
Again started saying anything and everything. You may follow Gandhi but we follow Krishna and Chanakya. So, our rules are not same as yours. Just because you aee like that doesn't mean you must generalise with everyone around.

I never said we should product fast or slow, all I said the DELAYS are not something of our own doing but constant hung up with foreign suppliers, reasons may vary
India is generally buying specific items which are tailor made fr India and not generic items. That is the reason for delay. Even DRDO gets delayed as development period can never be ascertained absolutely. There is always uncertainty while developing and hence delays are natural. It is not due to intentional activity and hence not conttollable.
 

Prashant12

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Navy opts for anti-mine clip-ons

NEW DELHI: Continuing delay to even kick off the long-pending Rs 32,000 crore project to construct 12 advanced minesweepers with foreign collaboration has forced the Navy to go in for emergency procurement of clip-on suites that can be fitted on small boats to tackle underwater mines.

The Navy has inked a Rs 306 crore deal with Thales Australia for eight “mine counter-measure clip-on influence sweeps” to “mitigate” the critical capability gap of not having advanced minesweepers. The Navy will equip its fast-interceptor crafts with these suites, which have “state-of-the-art infrasonic advanced acoustic generators”, when they are delivered in 2021-2022, say sources.

But these suites are just an interim measure till the Navy can get advanced minesweepers or mine counter-measure vessels (MCMVs), which are around 1,000-tonne specialised warships to detect, track and destroy underwater mines laid by enemy forces to choke harbours and offshore installations, disrupt shipping and maritime trade.

Alarmingly, the Navy is currently making do with only one old minesweeper, INS Kozhikode, at a time when Chinese nuclear and conventional submarines, which can quietly lay mines, are regularly coming on patrols to the Indian Ocean Region.

The Navy does have some “organic sweeps”, which can be mounted on patrol vessels, but requires 24 MCMVs to effectively guard the east and west coasts. But the acquisition case for MCMVs, which began way back in July 2005, is still to take off at the Goa Shipyard despite minesweepers along with submarines and multi-role helicopters being among the Navy’s top three critical operational requirements.


As was first reported by TOI in January 2018, the defence ministry had scrapped the Rs 32,000 crore project to construct 12 MCMVs at Goa Shipyard in collaboration with South Korea firm Kangnam after negotiations remained deadlocked on costs, technology transfer and build strategy. “Not much progress has been made in restarting the project afresh till now. It will take a decade to build the MCMVs once the contract is finally inked,” said a source.

The MCMV project was strongly backed by Goa chief minister Manohar Parrikarwhen he was the defence minister but the story in the indigenous defence production sector has remained worryingly similar.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...r-anti-mine-clip-ons/articleshow/67876833.cms
 

bhramos

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Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders can bid for the upcoming Rs 40,000 cr P-75I submarine contract under the strategic partnership model Says will have an edge over private players.

 

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