Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[Swiftfarts]

No. As far as can be reasonably estimated from their public info, the gun/armour of their tanks are same old T-72 level.

But due to recent upgrades Chinky-Pakis have advantages in sights & sensors over Indian T-90 that hasn't seen any modernisation since 2007 (welded turret introduced), as well as T/W... Ajeya Mark2 is expected to leave the Bhishma behind.

VT 4 base armour same as T 72M1? I highly doubt that. Only ERA can save T 72 but at this point. Which this upgrade probably will.

 

[ArgonPrime]

VT 4 base armour same as T 72M1? I highly doubt that. Only ERA can save T 72 but at this point. Which this upgrade probably will.

He got it wrong I think. They use the same AZ series autoloaders though.

 

[Bleh]

VT 4 base armour same as T 72M1? I highly doubt that. Only ERA can save T 72 but at this point. Which this upgrade probably will.

He got it wrong I think. They use the same AZ series autoloaders though.

Base armour of AK/VT are LOS thinner than T-72 (at the cheeks) & there's 600-650mm max effective armour on both turrets.

Both will have ERA, but that final value can't be in known by me as I'm not privy to secret details on it.

@ArgonPrime Chinese have massive electronics industry... It is likely that the AK-1/VT-4 latest sights are better than our old overheating-issue ridden 20-year-old Catherine sights.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Base armour of AK/VT are LOS thinner than T-72 (at the cheeks) & there's 600-650mm max effective armour on both turrets (not same composition though).

Yeah but since the AKs/VTs come with welded turret and presumably better armor inserts, their effective armor thickness should be somewhat higher compared to our T-72M1s. The M and M1 models were really the bottoms of the barrel out of all T-72 variants as far as base armor is concerned.

@ArgonPrime Chinese have massive electronics industry... It is likely that the AK-1/VT-4 latest sights are better than our old overheating-issue ridden 20-year-old Catherine sights.

Hmm, I see. That's gonna be a problem unless IA manages to pull its socks up in time. What about the new commander's sight of Arjun MkA??

 

[Bleh]

Yeah but since the AKs/VTs come with welded turret and presumably better armor inserts, their effective armor thickness should be somewhat higher compared to our T-72M1s. The M and M1 models were really the bottoms of the barrel out of all T-72 variants as far as base armor is concerned.



Hmm, I see. That's gonna be a problem unless IA manages to pull its socks up in time. What about the new commander's sight of Arjun MkA??

I think armour insert may have been changed in Ajeya... Not totally sure, but I think I read something like that.

All sights & sensors from Arjuns, rubbered tracks & hydropneumatic suspension from Tank Ex should have already been incorporated in out T-72/90s as MLU.

 

[ArgonPrime]

I think armour insert may have been changed in Ajeya... Not totally sure, but I think I read something like that.

I believe it was the upper glacis plate that was changed but for the turret, I'm not so sure.

All sights & sensors from Arjuns, rubbered tracks & hydropneumatic suspension from Tank Ex should have already been incorporated in out T-72/90s as MLU.

Exactly, along with the FCS.

 

[Killbot]

@ArgonPrime @Bleh @Swiftfarts are we going to replace the main gun on T72s and T90s. If so, with what?

 

[Bleh]

@ArgonPrime @Bleh @Swiftfarts are we going to replace the main gun on T72s and T90s. If so, with what?

No such plan known right now.

 

[ArgonPrime]

@ArgonPrime @Bleh @Swiftfarts are we going to replace the main gun on T72s and T90s. If so, with what?

There have been some reports of an OFB produced improved 2A46M barrel design with supposedly higher chamber pressure. Other than that, we don't really have much of an alternative as things stand as of now. In my opinion, the Army should have persuaded the GoI to negotiate for a contract for license manufacturing or at least off the shelf purchase of 2A46M-5 gun systems, those are pretty much equivalent to Rheinmetall L/44.

 

[Swiftfarts]

so T 72M1 base armour provide 400-450mm protection against APFSDS ( declassified CIA documents ) not that it's armour is that thick since it's inclined ( i made a terrible mistake few post back ) . T 72 ajeya 2 supposedly come with better armour inserts ? So i am going to add 100mm more . so total of 500-550mm base hull protection against APFSDS ?.
now add kontakt 5 and protection can be pushed to 750-800mm ballpark against KE easily.
( i may be wrong here so correct me ).
so upgraded T 72 protection wise stomp VT 4 easily . need new gun with higer chamber pressure to bust that tin can wide open .

 

[Bleh]

so upgraded T 72 protection wise stomp VT 4 easily . need new gun with higer chamber pressure to bust that tin can wide open .

Both are too unlikely to kill each other in 1st shot at equal combat... But the 1st-see-1st-hit probability is 90% in favour of AK/VK owing to better new sensor, sights, fire control system, possibly better suspension. Must faster acceleration too.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Both are too unlikely to kill each other in 1st shot at equal combat... But the 1st-see-1st-hit probability is 90% in favour of AK/VK owing to better new sensor, sights, fire control system, possibly better suspension. Must faster acceleration too.

But since 1000 elbit TIFCS have been ordered for T 72 upgrade, along with new engine, APU etc. won't that Change the whole equation in our favour ? I mean they are only getting around 200 VT 4 which will take a year or two and a thousand VT 4 will take more than a decade. We would have upgraded whole T 72 , T 90 fleet by than.

 

[ArgonPrime]

so T 72M1 base armour provide 400-450mm protection against APFSDS ( declassified CIA documents ) not that it's armour is that thick since it's inclined ( i made a terrible mistake few post back ) . T 72 ajeya 2 supposedly come with better armour inserts ? So i am going to add 100mm more . so total of 500-550mm base hull protection against APFSDS ?.

The turret, in all likelihood, remains the same as your vanilla M1s but the upper front plate was changed with a derivative of Arjun's armor.

so upgraded T 72 protection wise stomp VT 4 easily .

Stomp isn't applicable in this context. Now, if this Ajeya MkII upgrade was actually on par with the B3M or M84AS1, then it would be true.

need new gun with higer chamber pressure to bust that tin can wide open .

Yep, pretty much. The biggest problem of the entire IA armored corps at present is the unavailability of an APFSDS round potent enough to reliably one-shot current generation PA/ PLA MBTs from the front at standard ranges.

 

[Bleh]

But since 1000 elbit TIFCS have been ordered for T 72 upgrade, along with new engine, APU etc. won't that Change the whole equation in our favour ?

Ajeya Mark2 is a significant upgrade, yes... That too only one prototype just in trials. It'll take few years to get the planned 960 ready.

But the T-90s will still lag way behind,no upgrade plans in sight. Based on the LEDS-150 debacle, I'll say it's done only after it's actually done.

 

[ArgonPrime]

But since 1000 elbit TIFCS have been ordered for T 72 upgrade, along with new engine, APU etc. won't that Change the whole equation in our favour ? I mean they are only getting around 200 VT 4 which will take a year or two and a thousand VT 4 will take more than a decade. We would have upgraded whole T 72 , T 90 fleet by than.

Yeah, new sights and FCS will indeed tip the balance of power in our favor, especially in view of the rather limited number of modern tanks present in the arsenal of the Pakistani Army. All we now need is a better gun and ammo and we'll be set.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Ajeya Mark2 is a significant upgrade, yes... That too only one prototype just in trials. It'll take few years to get the planned 960 ready.

But the T-90s will still lag way behind,no upgrade plans in sight. Based on the LEDS-150 debacle, I'll say it's done only after it's actually done.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the Army/ GoI still hasn't shown any initiative in replacing the guns of these T series tanks. Like, for fuck's sake, which self-respecting Army would stick itself with a gun developed in the early 80s??!! And I don't buy the whole 'Russians won't part with the M-5 guns' claim either. I mean if they can sell us a fucking aircraft carrier/ FFGs or even SSNs, then I don't think they would hold back on a tank gun.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Ajeya Mark2 is a significant upgrade, yes... That too only one prototype just in trials. It'll take few years to get the planned 960 ready.

But the T-90s will still lag way behind,no upgrade plans in sight.

Uska time bhi ayega jaldi kya hai. Bacha abhi 20 sal ka he huwa hai.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Uska time bhi ayega jaldi kya. Bacha abhi 20 sal ka huwa hai.

Arey bhaya, yeh toh tank hai, 20 saal matlab adha life to guzar chuka hay already!!

 

[Swiftfarts]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the Army/ GoI still hasn't shown any initiative in replacing the guns of these T series tanks. Like, for fuck's sake, which self-respecting Army would stick itself with a gun developed in the early 80s??!! And I don't buy the whole 'Russians won't part with the M-5 guns' claim either. I mean if they can sell us a fucking aircraft carrier/ FFGs or even SSNs, then I don't think they would hold back on a tank gun.

Probably they didn't feel it was necessary since adversary tanks are so pathetic. Military leadership now think it's necessary to go for a upgrade since adversary fire power + protection level are increasing. russian and all x soviet states are going for upgrade for there older fleet , india to will follow the suite, since it is the biggest user of soviet, russian equipment outside Russia.

Arey bhaya, yeh toh tank hai, 20 saal matlab adha life to guzar chuka hay already!!

ayega uska time bhi ayega. I think they will have there upgrade soon since Indian army ROI mentioned requiremt of a new APFSDS for T 90/72 which can not be achieved without bigger autoloader and a new gun.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Probably they didn't feel it was necessary since adversary tanks are so pathetic. Military leadership now think it's necessary to go for a upgrade since adversary fire power + protection level are increasing. russian and all x soviet states are going for upgrade for there older fleet , india to will follow the suite, since it is the biggest user of soviet, russian equipment outside Russia.

Yeah, that might have been the reason. I mean, really, prior to the arrival of the VTs, the only capable tank in their inventory used to be the 380 or so number of T-80UDs. But still, they shouldn't have been sitting on their backsides for all these years.

ayega uska time bhi ayega. I think they will have there upgrade soon since Indian army ROI mentioned requiremt of a new APFSDS for T 90/72 which can not be achieved without bigger autoloader and a new gun.

Ummid toh yehi hay, dekhte hay kya hota hay.