Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[armyofhind]

I've been asking this question forever... Noone has given me a sane answer as to why the T55s cant do the job.... add a new 1000 Hp engine, throw in some ERA and an NVG suite...

In order to make the T-55 competitive against the enemy's modern light tanks, you'll also have to throw in an autoloader, NBC protection, gyroscopic stabilization to the sophistication of the current era, modern day comms equipment, Fire Control Computers etc.

Possibly a different armour composite as well..

Cost Benefit? Might as well go for something off the shelf in limited numbers.

 

[Shaitan]

Anti IR paint produced by private and public firms. Developed by DRDO. Applied by Heavy Vehicles Factory-OFB.

 

[Shaitan]

 

[Shaitan]

T90 without the frontal ERA on

 

[vishnugupt]

The deal of 13488 crore for just 464 tanks, gives a per unit cost of about 29 crores. That too for the outdated T-90S standard (which was state of the art in the 90s), not MS standard.
Hence talk of T-90S being very cheap compared to Arjun is just hogwash.

99.99% claims of armed forces against Indian product is just a hogwash. The sooner we understand, will be better for us.
Armed forces always have two set of GSQR list one for import, one for Indian product. GSQR for Indian product forms in a such a way where end result would be a failure. Here is few example.
1) Army gave requirement of interchangeable barrels for Assault rifle to DRDO But buying Sig 716 and AK-203. Army rejected INSAS 1c without giving a chance for trail
2) Army has been keep on insisting on four crew, weight should be below 60 tons for Arjun and active and passive armor protection. DRDO requested for automatic loading option to reduce weight by keeping 3 crew only but army rejected but buying T-90 with 3 crew, auto-loading option.

 

[Bhadra]

The Chinese have over-hyped the abilities of their type 15 light tank. As usual Indian media have fallen for that crap. The Type-15 is a modernization of the Type 85, which itself was a modernization of Type 59 MBT, which was a cpoy of Soviet T-55 MBT. Now what the Chinese are claiming to be a light tank specifically designed for military operation in TAR, is basically a souped up version of T-55 (which was considered a MBT in its day), just as T-90 is a souped up version of T-72.
What is ironic is that we have close to 2000 variants of T-55 sitting in retirement.
What is the need of the our is a modernization package of T-55, the likes of which many countries like Slovenia (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/91/ee/6991ee34127ea636072ac6573073af32.jpg) are offering. Even DRDO can come up with its own modernization package with its experience from Arjun project.

I agree with you. Not only the T-55, we have large junk of Jijayants to look at ...

But Indian Armed Corps is like the son of the king in Mudrarakshas legendary drama - Mrichkatikam who can throw away his golden chariot for a clay cart in the hands of a street boy.. ... just adamant.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Army wanted a rifle with diff cal. barrel and were interested in SCAR but the price made them opt for Sig. Apart from that let's be honest OFB built rifles have dubious quality for long. If they have any product matching Sig why don't they compete in American market and prove themselves.

The reason isn't the design of rifle but the same L1 tendency to get raw materials and shoddy work done by OFBs. Infact they have been in practice of producing substandard ammo.

Regarding ARJUN it was a disaster created by both DRDO and IA with full support of each other.

The performance of T-90s with Indian army further made sure Arjun's induction will be for namesake.

The current req are already filled up by T-90s. Considering our terrain we need a 40-45 ton class and a heavily armoured version of the same in 55 ton class for FMBT.

99.99% claims of armed forces against Indian product is just a hogwash. The sooner we understand, will be better for us.
Armed forces always have two set of GSQR list one for import, one for Indian product. GSQR for Indian product forms in a such a way where end result would be a failure. Here is few example.
1) Army gave requirement of interchangeable barrels for Assault rifle to DRDO But buying Sig 716 and AK-203. Army rejected INSAS 1c without giving a chance for trail
2) Army has been keep on insisting on four crew, weight should be below 60 tons for Arjun and active and passive armor protection. DRDO requested for automatic loading option to reduce weight by keeping 3 crew only but army rejected but buying T-90 with 3 crew, auto-loading option.

 

[WolfPack86]

Defence Ministry approves Army project for acquiring 3rd generation Anti-Tank Guided Missiles
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, on Monday accorded approval for Capital Procurement for the Defence forces amounting over Rs 3300 crores of indigenously designed and developed equipment.


The DAC maintained its impetus on the ‘Make in India’ initiative while approving three projects, which will be indigenously designed, developed and manufactured by the Indian companies.

The projects approved by DAC include third-generation Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM) and the Auxiliary Power Units (APUs) for the T-72 and T-90 Tanks.

The third-generation ATGM would boost the capability of the Indian Army by providing ‘Fire and Forget’ and “Top Attack” capabilities to the troops in an armoured battle. The APUs would enable incorporation of various upgrades to Fire Control System and Night Fighting capabilities of the tanks.


The Ministry of Defence said in a press release that both these projects will be progressed under the ‘Make-II’ Category and will provide a boost to indigenous research and development in the private sector. The approval of these projects is historic because it is the first time that the Ministry of Defence has offered complex Military equipment to be designed, developed and manufactured by the Indian private

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Raksha Mantri Shri
@rajnathsingh
met today and accorded approval for Capital Procurement for the Defence forces amounting over Rs. 3300 crores of indigenously designed and developed equipment.

The first two projects include third generation Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM) and the Auxiliary Power Units (APUs) for the T-72 and T-90 Tanks.

Defence Ministry approves Army project for acquiring 3rd generation Anti-Tank Guided Missiles

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, on Monday accorded approval for Capital Procurement for the Defence forces amounting over Rs 3300 crores of indigenously designed and developed equipment.

zeenews.india.com

 

[vishnugupt]

Army wanted a rifle with diff cal. barrel and were interested in SCAR but the price made them opt for Sig. Apart from that let's be honest OFB built rifles have dubious quality for long. If they have any product matching Sig why don't they compete in American market and prove themselves.

The reason isn't the design of rifle but the same L1 tendency to get raw materials and shoddy work done by OFBs. Infact they have been in practice of producing substandard ammo.

Regarding ARJUN it was a disaster created by both DRDO and IA with full support of each other.

The performance of T-90s with Indian army further made sure Arjun's induction will be for namesake.

The current req are already filled up by T-90s. Considering our terrain we need a 40-45 ton class and a heavily armoured version of the same in 55 ton class for FMBT.

You and @Bhadra are like Rajdeep sardesai and Burkha dutt of this forum who built a narrative and keep talking around it. How nicely you managed to put 50% blame on DRDO for Arjun failure ( If you can't put 100% blame than put at least 50%, ) and OFB for rifles despite of impossible GSQR given by Army.
Armed forces have monopoly in crying but zero responsibility for an answer.
1) Why on the earth Only IA use all sort of rifles/guns? no reasonable answer only rhetorics
2) What will IA/IAF achieve by ordering just 28 Apaches or any other peace-meal order? no reasonable answer only rhetorics
3) There is budget allocation of chiefs which they can use in emergency without CCS approval. But they use this money exclusively for import.
Nevertheless, Import ban list is the proof that what Armed forces are up to when it comes to import vs local

 

[Flying Dagger]

You and @Bhadra are like Rajdeep sardesai and Burkha dutt of this forum who built a narrative and keep talking around it. How nicely you managed to put 50% blame on DRDO for Arjun failure ( If you can't put 100% blame than put at least 50%, ) and OFB for rifles despite of impossible GSQR given by Army.
Armed forces have monopoly in crying but zero responsibility for an answer.
1) Why on the earth Only IA use all sort of rifles/guns? no reasonable answer only rhetorics
2) What will IA/IAF achieve by ordering just 28 Apaches or any other peace-meal order? no reasonable answer only rhetorics
3) There is budget allocation of chiefs which they can use in emergency without CCS approval. But they use this money exclusively for import.
Nevertheless, Import ban list is the proof that what Armed forces are up to when it comes to import vs local

What was impossible in GSQR for rifles ?

Are you saying there are no rifle in the world which can switch to diff cal round by changing barrel ?

Or you mean expecting a decent rifle is impossible from OFB?

What do you mean why only IA uses all types of rifle ? What type of rifle you want them to use ?

What will IAF/IA achieve by 28 Apaches ? Then what should they have done ?

Just let the soldiers sit without any CAS support in war ? And we will be getting more anyway. That deal had many factor political / trade imbalance issue/ military capability to take care of.

114 Dhanush were ordered how many delivered so far ? Between Dhanush are copy/improvement of Bofors.

The emergency purchase have max imported content because we don't have a domestic defence industry capable of delivering world class product.

Import ban list was to inspire domestic Pvt players and int suppliers to enter and make in India

 

[vishnugupt]

What was impossible in GSQR for rifles ?

Rifle with three different interchangeable barrels 5.56, 6.8, 7.6. and eventually going for different one ( Sig-716 )

Are you saying there are no rifle in the world which can switch to diff cal round by changing barrel ?

Please let us know how many Armies use Interchangeable barrels rifle as a standard front line assault rifle?

Or you mean expecting a decent rifle is impossible from OFB?

Forget OFB, nobody on earth can design weapons for Indian Armed forces except . Kickbacks. So I never said that.

What do you mean why only IA uses all types of rifle ? What type of rifle you want them to use ?

This IA have to decide. If they are buying sig716 or AK-203 than why they gave stupid Requirements to DRDO earlier?

What will IAF/IA achieve by 28 Apaches ? Then what should they have done ?

People like you are the reason why we are still a begger forces rather than formidable force. 6 Apache adequate to IA at cost of 1 billion ??? Only you and IA can justify. Why they hadn't bought LCH with Israeli ATGMs?

Just let the soldiers sit without any CAS support in war ? And we will be getting more anyway. That deal had many factor political / trade imbalance issue/ military capability to take care of.

6 + 28 Apache are enough for CAS job on both fronts?? When they getting more ??
Btw since when Armed forces care about trade imbalance and Political factors???
Don't talk both ways.

114 Dhanush were ordered how many delivered so far ? Between Dhanush are copy/improvement of Bofors.

What do you want?? Delivery within day?? Are you buying gun on Amazon?? Production started in 2019 and despite of pandemic delivered more than 25. Btw... Delivery time must have fixed during negotiations so ask IA.

The emergency purchase have max imported content because we don't have a domestic defence industry capable of delivering world class product.

Some import is justified But most of time emergency come only when a indigenous product about to finish it's trials?? Platus deal?? Remember

Import ban list was to inspire domestic Pvt players and int suppliers to enter and make in India

Laughable, better to say desparate attempt .
Which international or private players going to build LCA, LCH ( primary contractor)?? Import ban list is exclusively made for Armed forces because their emergency/stupid GSQR ( According to CDS Rawat ) peace meal orders have cost India 3 LAKHS CRORES in just 5-7 years without adding any significant defence capabilities.
Moreover, despite of 70billion defence budget India Armed force have to go for begging as soon as a conflict arises. They learnt nothing from the past.
Don't emotionally blackmail again and again that soldiers will suffer, they are on the front, defending on the cost of their life..... We have great respect for footsoldier. Nobody want our soldiers to die. Soldiers die due to ill preparation because of malpractice

 

[Shaitan]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Rifle with three different interchangeable barrels 5.56, 6.8, 7.6. and eventually going for different one ( Sig-716 )

Please let us know how many Armies use Interchangeable barrels rifle as a standard front line assault rifle?


Forget OFB, nobody on earth can design weapons for Indian Armed forces except . Kickbacks. So I never said that.

This IA have to decide. If they are buying sig716 or AK-203 than why they gave stupid Requirements to DRDO earlier?


People like you are the reason why we are still a begger forces rather than formidable force. 6 Apache adequate to IA at cost of 1 billion ??? Only you and IA can justify. Why they hadn't bought LCH with Israeli ATGMs?


6 + 28 Apache are enough for CAS job on both fronts?? When they getting more ??
Btw since when Armed forces care about trade imbalance and Political factors???
Don't talk both ways.

What do you want?? Delivery within day?? Are you buying gun on Amazon?? Production started in 2019 and despite of pandemic delivered more than 25. Btw... Delivery time must have fixed during negotiations so ask IA.


Some import is justified But most of time emergency come only when a indigenous product about to finish it's trials?? Platus deal?? Remember


Laughable, better to say desparate attempt .
Which international or private players going to build LCA, LCH ( primary contractor)?? Import ban list is exclusively made for Armed forces because their emergency/stupid GSQR ( According to CDS Rawat ) peace meal orders have cost India 3 LAKHS CRORES in just 5-7 years without adding any significant defence capabilities.
Moreover, despite of 70billion defence budget India Armed force have to go for begging as soon as a conflict arises. They learnt nothing from the past.
Don't emotionally blackmail again and again that soldiers will suffer, they are on the front, defending on the cost of their life..... We have great respect for footsoldier. Nobody want our soldiers to die. Soldiers die due to ill preparation because of malpractice

After Chandra Gupt.... Vishnu Gupt

Both profile are yours ?

From Scar H/L to Israel X 95 bull pup which can be easily changed into diff caliber by changing barrel

It's not out of the world tech though I agree expecting that from DRDO was stupid.

People like you are the reason our OFBs and Babudom exist with shoddy job performance.

And what IA has to do with trade imbalance etc ?

Empty jugs make lot of noise , you too.

I am not going to entertain you further.

 

[vishnugupt]

After Chandra Gupt.... Vishnu Gupt

Both profile are yours ?

You can check since when i am a member of this forum so there is not chance Chandragupt came before me and I don't need another account here.

From Scar H/L to Israel X 95 bull pup which can be easily changed into diff caliber by changing barrel

More or less these rifles are being use in fix configuration and only X 95 is a standardized rifle for front-line troops. But why IA didn't buy these above option if they really needed a multi caliber rifle?? Why Sig716? So who is not fix in their GSQR?? or IA should give time to DRDO for development ??

People like you are the reason our OFBs and Babudom exist with shoddy job performance.

I neither said it nor i am supporter of OFB but due to unpredictability/ malpractice/ peacemeal orders of IA private industry failed to develop. what left other than government PSUs so deal with it. Please don,t say its not a Armed force responsibility to rope in private sector? Ask MRF, Bharat Forge, and many others how much money they have lost due to this nature of IA.

And what IA has to do with trade imbalance etc ?

This is what you said not me

Empty jugs make lot of noise , you too.

I am not going to entertain you further.

Exactly, like you are defending undefendable. Everyone knows how Armed forces treat local product and run for import after giving logics/justifications like you thats why government have to made "Import ban List" but unfortunately none of list can ban you and your logics.
You guys even denying CDS Bipin rawat words.

 

[Bleh]

Al-Khalid-1 seems to throughly outclass our 464 obsolete T-90S in every single parameter I looked for!

It's a joint venture between Pakistan, China, and Ukraine. Thanks to them its now has bi-axis gun stabilisation, anti thermal/IR coatings from Intermat Defence, possibly some BMS feature, new sights & sensors.

New composite armour, possibly to mount Ukrainian Varta or Chink JM-3 dazzler active protection system as "improved urban warfare capability" was mentioned.

They apparently increased the autoloader size that now carries more rounds. Overall 49 rounds.

Mobility is claimed to have improved, but same engine. From the footages, its seems they upgrades the suspension & transmission.
.
.
.
The latest T-90M-P3 is a completely different beast compared to ours. Atleast the Arjun's subsystems need to be installed & maybe the spare ammo moved to turret-bustle.

 

[fire starter]

Al-Khalid-1 seems to throughly outclass our 464 obsolete T-90S in every single parameter I looked for!

It's a joint venture between Pakistan, China, and Ukraine. Thanks to them its now has bi-axis gun stabilisation, anti thermal/IR coatings from Intermat Defence, possibly some BMS feature, new sights & sensors.View attachment 59004
New composite armour, possibly to mount Ukrainian Varta or Chink JM-3 dazzler active protection system as "improved urban warfare capability" was mentioned.

They apparently increased the autoloader size that now carries more rounds. Overall 49 rounds.

Mobility is claimed to have improved, but same engine. From the footages, its seems they upgrades the suspension & transmission.
.
.
.
The latest T-90M-P3 is a completely different beast compared to ours. Atleast the Arjun's subsystems need to be installed & maybe the spare ammo moved to turret-bustle.
View attachment 59007

From where these beggars are getting money.

 

[Bleh]

From where these beggars are getting money.

That's the thing, compared to jets or missile-boats or even helicopters, tanks cost pretty minimal. R&D is mostly done by Chinks, with Ukrainian subsystems imported as supplement... Pakis just do the basic manufacturing.

Never thought Al-Khalid of all things would have me impressed, but that's very very good fund prioritisation & resource utilisation, most efficient use of every available penny.

 

[fire starter]

That's the thing, compared to jets or missile-boats or even helicopters, tanks cost pretty minimal. R&D is mostly done by Chinks, with Ukrainian subsystems imported as supplement... Pakis just do the basic manufacturing.

Never thought Al-Khalid of all things would have me impressed, but that's very very good fund prioritisation & resource utilisation, most efficient use of every available penny.

They saved a lot of money by assembling .

 

[Flying Dagger]

You can check since when i am a member of this forum so there is not chance Chandragupt came before me and I don't need another account here.

More or less these rifles are being use in fix configuration and only X 95 is a standardized rifle for front-line troops. But why IA didn't buy these above option if they really needed a multi caliber rifle?? Why Sig716? So who is not fix in their GSQR?? or IA should give time to DRDO for development ??

I neither said it nor i am supporter of OFB but due to unpredictability/ malpractice/ peacemeal orders of IA private industry failed to develop. what left other than government PSUs so deal with it. Please don,t say its not a Armed force responsibility to rope in private sector? Ask MRF, Bharat Forge, and many others how much money they have lost due to this nature of IA.

This is what you said not me


Exactly, like you are defending undefendable. Everyone knows how Armed forces treat local product and run for import after giving logics/justifications like you thats why government have to made "Import ban List" but unfortunately none of list can ban you and your logics.
You guys even denying CDS Bipin rawat words.

1. Army didn't order those due to price difference. The Sig costed 990 dollar somewhat lesser than Arsenal copy of OFB. OFB had ample time but they kept coming back with some superficial change and shoddy job continues.

2. But they will be buying licensed version of AK -203 from OFB Amethi /Russian JV. It will take care of quality and make in India both. We should have gone with the licensed route much earlier like porks OFB did.

3.What you are calling piece meal are actually pretty big order size if you compare it with other countries who still produce quality product in small numbers. High cost is understandable but why compromise with quality ?

We pay more for HAL built Sukhoi , T 90s or OFB built rifles like TAR (80,000) while original Arsenal were bought for 35-40,000 rs.

4. Bharat Forge etc haven't lost a shit they are Pvt companies and make money out of the deals they make in.

Companies need to take risk and invest in the sector. And gov will have to provide support too. Our Pvt sector isn't ready to enter due to high entry cost and long bureaucratic procedure like in case of Rafale.

Just see recent e.g. of CARACAL carbine deal it's stuck since 2 years as someone raised question on them . But in the meantime we have seen nothing new from OFB they could have tried their hand on SCAR / or other AR Gp version rifle. Collab. with some small time American rifle manufacturers perhaps who can help out at fraction of the cost .

Anyway Indian defence industry need Pvt players to end hegemony of psu which needs strong political will and had started happening but it takes time to develop such capability. With OFB Amethi we can be assured of rifles and other small arms of good quality coming out .

Armed Forces treat product based on their quality. Sure there are kickback involved but if domestic industry can provide good option like in case of howitzer there won't be any need to lookout.

Rest you can continue your blah blah just don't quote me.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Actually they are pretty smart in that area whether going for JF 17 or tanks or rifles . They are doing best within their limited funds available to procure.

But their Shia Christian and Hindu hatred will destroy them eventually

They saved a lot of money by assembling .