Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Hari Sud]

Yup, the Russkies are asking a royalty fee of $200 per rifle. I don't know whether the asking price of $1100 per rifle includes this royalty fee or excludes it.
The viable option would to just scrap this deal and go for local production of Arsenal AR-M5TB or AR-M5F41 with Kalyani group as your local partner.
Other option which exists is to go for the SSS Defence P-72

The local production was not up to the mark that is why the foreigners were invited. If AK-203 deal scraps then go Caracal rifle. That is a higher grade than local rifle.

 

[Immanuel]

I doubt the AK203 will be scrapped, Russians are good at throwing in last minutes twists, just negotiations, same thing happened with S-400. The AK is brand name and it's the baap of reliable rifles so they"ll go ahead in the new year. People keep forgetting IA operates in the some of the most treacherous environments. They reject rifles left and right usually including home made ones. So consider it done. Also once Modi personally speaks on a deal, it's a done deal.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I doubt the AK203 will be scrapped, Russians are good at throwing in last minutes twists, just negotiations, same thing happened with S-400. The AK is brand name and it's the baap of reliable rifles so they"ll go ahead in the new year. People keep forgetting IA operates in the some of the most treacherous environments. They reject rifles left and right usually including home made ones. So consider it done. Also once Modi personally speaks on a deal, it's a done deal.

It's the last line of your post which has most weight in this deal , the political nature.

 

[Marliii]

Yup it was a political deal.indian army which tests ofb rifles 100 times to find problems and throwing it away then starts a tender and selects a rifle on l1.but in ak203 deal we sent a team to russia and just ordered it.I think this deal may be in verge of scrapping and russia may offer an another rifle mostly ak15 and close the deal.first there were talking of making ak103 here then out of the blue it become ak203 then it become ak103 with rails.reality is its OFB trying to be in business.they know after insas fiasco indian army will not select their guns.so they are tying with a reputed brand like kalanishkov to change this.

 

[Johny_Baba]

In my opinion if we are ever getting a ruskie riphul then we should get one of those Balanced Action ones as recommended by @shuvo@y2k10 in some previous post i.e. AEK-971 // A-545 series or AK-107 series

Although Shuvojeet mentioned about AK-107 i kinda think A-545 (they also have a 7.62x39mm version of it named A-762) would be better for us as the rifle disassembles just like a regular AK (i.e. we could make our machinery to adopt to it and produce it with less modification efforts) and training would be mostly similar as well.
In fact A-545 went head-to-head with 2nd prototype of AK-12 during famed Ratnik trials and was selected as special forces rifle while AK-12 couldn't pass the trials until it switched back to AK-400 version (i.e. vanilla AK).

Pic for clarification that they did make 5.56 NATO prototypes too along with 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm one

If we could get this,adopting it with current INSAS mags would be an easy peasy thing i think

AEK-971 disassembled (A-545 is similar to this)

AEK-971 mechanism

A545 mechanism

A-762 variant in 7.62x39mm

maybe we could change this buttstock here to more modular one ?

Larry Vickers trying out AEK-971
another video of AEK-971
A-545 during some military trial (sorry for potato quality video)

 

[ManhattanProject]

In my opinion if we are ever getting a ruskie riphul then we should get one of those Balanced Action ones as recommended by @shuvo@y2k10 in some previous post i.e. AEK-971 // A-545 series or AK-107 series

Although Shuvojeet mentioned about AK-107 i kinda think A-545 (they also have a 7.62x39mm version of it named A-762) would be better for us as the rifle disassembles just like a regular AK (i.e. we could make our machinery to adopt to it and produce it with less modification efforts) and training would be mostly similar as well.
In fact A-545 went head-to-head with 2nd prototype of AK-12 during famed Ratnik trials and was selected as special forces rifle while AK-12 couldn't pass the trials until it switched back to AK-400 version (i.e. vanilla AK).

Pic for clarification that they did make 5.56 NATO prototypes too along with 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm one
View attachment 71590
If we could get this,adopting it with current INSAS mags would be an easy peasy thing i think

AEK-971 disassembled (A-545 is similar to this)

View attachment 71595
AEK-971 mechanism
View attachment 71596
A545 mechanism
View attachment 71594

A-762 variant in 7.62x39mm
View attachment 71600
maybe we could change this buttstock here to more modular one ?

Larry Vickers trying out AEK-971
another video of AEK-971
A-545 during some military trial (sorry for potato quality video)

No the balanced action ones are far too complicated to issue widely and maintain it in the field. There is a reason the russians use them in very small numbers.
The more parts a rifles has, the more parts there are that can break.

 

[Johny_Baba]

No the balanced action ones are far too complicated to issue widely and maintain it in the field. There is a reason the russians use them in very small numbers.
The more parts a rifles has, the more parts there are that can break.

Sorry but i disagree,I think they aren't more complicated than any modern assault rifle from the west,at least AEK-971 // A-545 series.Slightly less reliable than standard AK yes but still if someone could keep outside gunk away from those rack-and-pinion combo in gas system it'd work just fine i think.Besides at very core it's a fork of Kalashnikov with different gas system.

As for russians limiting it to SF only, i believe because this requires more monies to produce and these guys cannot afford it to everybody.

 

[Killbot]

Sorry but i disagree,I think they aren't more complicated than any modern assault rifle from the west,at least AEK-971 // A-545 series.Slightly less reliable than standard AK yes but still if someone could keep outside gunk away from those rack-and-pinion combo in gas system it'd work just fine i think.
View attachment 71698
View attachment 71699
View attachment 71700

As for russians limiting it to SF only, i believe because this requires more monies to produce and these guys cannot afford it to everybody.

We have no use for such a weapon imo. Its going to be expensive as hell for one, and the crowning feature, 3 round 'hyper burst' is of absolutely no use..

 

[Johny_Baba]

We have no use for such a weapon imo. Its going to be expensive as hell for one, and the crowning feature, 3 round 'hyper burst' is of absolutely no use..

you're mistaking AEK-971//A-545 with AN-94,no hyperburst here just regular 3-round or 2-round burst along with semi-auto and full-auto mode.

This is AN-94

As for being expensive,mass production is the key.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Sorry but i disagree,I think they aren't more complicated than any modern assault rifle from the west,at least AEK-971 // A-545 series.Slightly less reliable than standard AK yes but still if someone could keep outside gunk away from those rack-and-pinion combo in gas system it'd work just fine i think.Besides at very core it's a fork of Kalashnikov with different gas system.
View attachment 71698

View attachment 71704
View attachment 71702
View attachment 71703
View attachment 71699
View attachment 71700

As for russians limiting it to SF only, i believe because this requires more monies to produce and these guys cannot afford it to everybody.

lol showing the bolt carrier as a single unit is misleading. The bolt carrier probably has more parts than a vanilla ak47.

 

[Johny_Baba]

lol showing the bolt carrier as a single unit is misleading. The bolt carrier probably has more parts than a vanilla ak47.

I'm not misleadin,do i happen to have any of these firearm in my personal possession to show you every bit of it disassembled ? i rely on internet just like you to present things,i just posted whatever i could find with simple "disassembly" search

and even then you think that i'm misleading by then here its gas system disassembled

maybe it has one extra rod and a gear mechanism to sync it with bolt carrier but nothing like rocket science,
tell me how it's more parts than say short stroke gas piston system of HK416 ?

Sorry but i disagree,I think they aren't more complicated than any modern assault rifle from the west,at least AEK-971 // A-545 series.Slightly less reliable than standard AK yes but still if someone could keep outside gunk away from those rack-and-pinion combo in gas system it'd work just fine i think.Besides at very core it's a fork of Kalashnikov with different gas system.

 

[ManhattanProject]

I'm not misleadin,do i happen to have any of these firearm in my personal possession to show you every bit of it disassembled ? i rely on internet just like you to present things,i just posted whatever i could find with simple "disassembly" search

and even then you think that i'm misleading by then here its gas system disassembled
View attachment 71713
View attachment 71714

maybe it has one extra rod and a gear mechanism to sync it with bolt carrier but nothing like rocket science,
tell me how it's more parts than say short stroke gas piston system of HK416 ?

the hk416 gas piston system is a proven design from ww2.

 

[Hari Sud]

the hk416 gas piston system is a proven design from ww2.

You are right ...... but most expensive too.

 

[Flying Dagger]

You are right ...... but most expensive too.

Expensive ? Caracal offered it dirt cheap in comparison to Ak 203

 

[Johny_Baba]

the hk416 gas piston system is a proven design from ww2.

is it fault of the balanced action system now that it hasn't seen and proven its worth in a gigascale of war simply because it didn't exist back then ? Maybe in future it'll get this certificate in perhaps year 2038 when world war 3 starts idk
anyway if someone wants to measure its worth that way then It indeed has seen action in the chechen wars during late 90s-early 2000s and now in year 2018 its improved versio A-545 and A-762 were selected for certain branches o Russian military with serial production starting in April 2020.

 

[Johny_Baba]

is it fault of the balanced action system now that it hasn't seen and proven its worth in a gigascale of war simply because it didn't exist back then ? Maybe in future it'll get this certificate in perhaps year 2038 when world war 3 starts idk
anyway if someone wants to measure its worth that way then It indeed has seen action in the chechen wars during late 90s-early 2000s and now in year 2018 its improved versio A-545 and A-762 were selected for certain branches o Russian military with serial production starting in April 2020.

BTW some footage of civilian version of A-545 named KSO-18 (or KCO-18 in Cyrilic)

with M-LOK style handguards and AK74 magazine

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Ironically, the balanced recoil mechanism was patented in 1908 by Ludwig Mertens from UK and patented in USA as US Patent number 891,778, invention is titled as “Non-recoiling firearm”. This patent has long been expired. He conceptualized that barrel and bolt moving in opposite directions enclosed in a single housing. Using a rack and pinion system, the movement of the barrel and bolt was to be synchronized.

Later, in 1966, Edwin Rohr from Switzerland, working for Hammerli AG, applied for a patent that covered several methods to reduce recoil and muzzle flip of a self-loading firearms, target pistols in particular. His patent application was:

Soviet Union gun designers started working on it in 1960s. One such weapon SA-006 from Kovrov, performed better than AK-74 in head to head army trials in 1974, in terms of accuracy and reliability. However, the latter was chosen due to ease of manufacture and commonality with already in service AK-47 and AKM.

Then in the 90s came AN-94 and in early 2000s came AK-107.

Hence the moral of the story is the original patent has expired. Any arms manufacturer can make his own version. Rather than going for a Russian rifle, DRDO should try its hands on it.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

JAKLI

 

[ManhattanProject]

Ironically, the balanced recoil mechanism was patented in 1908 by Ludwig Mertens from UK and patented in USA as US Patent number 891,778, invention is titled as “Non-recoiling firearm”. This patent has long been expired. He conceptualized that barrel and bolt moving in opposite directions enclosed in a single housing. Using a rack and pinion system, the movement of the barrel and bolt was to be synchronized.

Later, in 1966, Edwin Rohr from Switzerland, working for Hammerli AG, applied for a patent that covered several methods to reduce recoil and muzzle flip of a self-loading firearms, target pistols in particular. His patent application was:

Soviet Union gun designers started working on it in 1960s. One such weapon SA-006 from Kovrov, performed better than AK-74 in head to head army trials in 1974, in terms of accuracy and reliability. However, the latter was chosen due to ease of manufacture and commonality with already in service AK-47 and AKM.

Then in the 90s came AN-94 and in early 2000s came AK-107.

Hence the moral of the story is the original patent has expired. Any arms manufacturer can make his own version. Rather than going for a Russian rifle, DRDO should try its hands on it.

that balanced thing is not going to go anywhere any time soon.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Interesting graphics and specifications of Sig 716i