Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Immanuel]

Bottom line- it REALLY needs some decent optics to take advantage of, issuing it with iron sights is a pathetic joke being played on the infantrymen

In other countries this would be a scandal

Sights are a different tender, that means it comes with all the bells and whistles of procurement process in India, you should know this by now. Also, do you expect that IA picks a sight for over 150K rifles without doing a proper comparison with various suppliers?

 

[another_armchair]

Afaik, any new weapon initiation and training, particularly rifles begins with iron sights.

Simulators if available are also made use of in training centers.

Scope comes in later.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Afaik, any new weapon initiation and training, particularly rifles begins with iron sights.

Simulators if available are also made use of in training centers.

Scope comes in later.

It's not a "new" weapon. Except few controls it's same as Kalash, INSAS and FAL for an average joe.

A soldier's training starts with iron sights so that he has basic idea of factors like windage, elevation and lead. And it also prepares him for worst case scenarios.
But unfortunately here even Dragunov guys have to use iron sights.

Simulators for firearms are just gimmicks. There is no way you can nurture a rookie into a pointman or marksman by simulators. It best works for weapons like mortars, ManPADS and ATGMs.

 

[another_armchair]

 

[Killbot]

It's not a "new" weapon. Except few controls it's same as Kalash, INSAS and FAL for an average joe.

A soldier's training starts with iron sights so that he has basic idea of factors like windage, elevation and lead. And it also prepares him for worst case scenarios.
But unfortunately here even Dragunov guys have to use iron sights.

Simulators for firearms are just gimmicks. There is no way you can nurture a rookie into a pointman or marksman by simulators. It best works for weapons like mortars, ManPADS and ATGMs.

"except a few controls" lol. So basically, if a soldier can disassemble a Kalashnikov, he can do the same with a FAL, AR-10 or any other system..

Oh, I didn't know you couldn't guage elevation and windage using an optic. All those schmucks in the west spending thousands of dollars on optics must be stupid.

And it also prepares him for worst case scenarios.

and what scenario would that be? A prism optic like ACOG has a chemically etched and illuminated reticle and is tough as nails, it won't suddenly just stop working. Even a cheaper prism based optic will do.

But unfortunately here even Dragunov guys have to use iron sights.

No, they don't. Well, they do for zeroing the PSO-1, but otherwise, no.

Simulators for firearms are just gimmicks. There is no way you can nurture a rookie into a pointman or marksman by simulators.

Sims are mostly for CQB training. And with advanced algorithms, they can be used for marksmanship training.


Welcome to the 21st century grandpa.

 

[Marliii]

IA is mostly using bel made holographic sights on sig716.holos are good on fab modified ak and carbines but for a battle rifle like sig you need scopes with magnification to use them on capacity.

 

[FalconSlayers]

I don’t understand the basic bitchery in MoD? I mean it is already a clusterfuck in Indian Army’s inafantry, how many types of Holographic and reflex sights Indian army uses? Tonnes of variety, instead of standardising one or two like the USA. In Indian Army the widely used telescopic optic is Alpha Design Solutions 4x Telescopic Scope used by RR and AR. Why not buy them in bulk instead of testing newer optics if the existing is doing pretty well? I mean how the fuck we will train each soldier on 3 different rifles, tonnes of reflex sights and tonnes of telescopic sights? This clusterfuckery needs to be stopped.

 

[Akula]

I don’t understand the basic bitchery in MoD? I mean it is already a clusterfuck in Indian Army’s inafantry, how many types of Holographic and reflex sights Indian army uses? Tonnes of variety, instead of standardising one or two like the USA. In Indian Army the widely used telescopic optic is Alpha Design Solutions 4x Telescopic Scope used by RR and AR. Why not buy them in bulk instead of testing newer optics if the existing is doing pretty well? I mean how the fuck we will train each soldier on 3 different rifles, tonnes of reflex sights and tonnes of telescopic sights? This clusterfuckery needs to be stopped.

Indian Army is keeping this slogan "Unity in diversity" near it's heart. But this slogan may work elsewhere.

 

[Marliii]

There were some news about ak203 getting scrapped.if it gets scrapped which 7.62×39 gun will we buy.7.62 is required only for RR so no should be less than 2 lakh.I have feeling that many in mod has the logic to question the ak203 deal because fab mod ak are better than these watered down ak203.ak 203 deal is killed with silence just like kamov deal which gun has the chance of getting adopted?

 

[ezsasa]

Bottom line- it REALLY needs some decent optics to take advantage of, issuing it with iron sights is a pathetic joke being played on the infantrymen

In other countries this would be a scandal

if I recall there was a tender in 2015-16 where rifle was rejected because of the scope, since then all large quantity tenders are being issued separately for rifle and scope, so that there are lesser reasons to stall a tender.

 

[Johny_Baba]

There were some news about ak203 getting scrapped.if it gets scrapped which 7.62×39 gun will we buy.7.62 is required only for RR so no should be less than 2 lakh.I have feeling that many in mod has the logic to question the ak203 deal because fab mod ak are better than these watered down ak203.ak 203 deal is killed with silence just like kamov deal which gun has the chance of getting adopted?

Bhaee we already make kalashnikovs at home,like Ghaatak,Trichy (that's basically copy of Bulgarian Arsenal AKs) and what not so i don't think cancelling of AK-203 would cause issue in that way.

baki Russiya maata hum nhi aaenge AK yhi banaenge

 

[ezsasa]

There were some news about ak203 getting scrapped.if it gets scrapped which 7.62×39 gun will we buy.7.62 is required only for RR so no should be less than 2 lakh.I have feeling that many in mod has the logic to question the ak203 deal because fab mod ak are better than these watered down ak203.ak 203 deal is killed with silence just like kamov deal which gun has the chance of getting adopted?

this time it is nothing to do with us, it’s upto Putin/Rosoboronexport.
It has already be proven with Americans & French that if vendor is willing to supply on time, MoD is not the reason for any delay.

 

[Marliii]

There are reports that russians are asking royalty for each ak made.they are behaving as if ak are made only by russia.this deal has to be scrapped.ofb ghatak is better than indian version of ak203.

 

[another_armchair]

There are reports that russians are asking royalty for each ak made.they are behaving as if ak are made only by russia.this deal has to be scrapped.ofb ghatak is better than indian version of ak203.

How much did CAPFs pay for the OFB Ghatak, TAR?

 

[Marliii]

Would be less than ak203 which is higher than 1000dollars. Even after degrading the rifle to its limit ofb is not decreasing the value.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Army will most probably have a separate tender for scopes for Sig 716. Question is whether Air-force and Navy, who are also getting small numbers of Sigs, will issue their separate tenders?

 

[Killbot]

How much did CAPFs pay for the OFB Ghatak, TAR?

₹30,000 per rifle. Less than half the price of AK-103M.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

₹30,000 per rifle. Less than half the price of AK-103M.

This is a reasonable price for an AK variant. Turns out to be $408. Also,both TAR and Ghatak have received very favourable reviews within the CAPFs and armed forces.Whereas, for the watered down AK203, Ruskies are quoting $1100.
Also, the OFB is quoting 75000-80000 for R2 rifle. This price needs to be negotiated to 30-35K. Only then, it can be considered a viable option.

 

[Vishal Chandorkar]

There were some news about ak203 getting scrapped.if it gets scrapped which 7.62×39 gun will we buy.7.62 is required only for RR so no should be less than 2 lakh.I have feeling that many in mod has the logic to question the ak203 deal because fab mod ak are better than these watered down ak203.ak 203 deal is killed with silence just like kamov deal which gun has the chance of getting adopted?

I think if the no’s are going to be less than 2 lakhs, the Arsenal AKs would Be a good option

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

There are reports that russians are asking royalty for each ak made.they are behaving as if ak are made only by russia.this deal has to be scrapped.ofb ghatak is better than indian version of ak203.

Yup, the Russkies are asking a royalty fee of $200 per rifle. I don't know whether the asking price of $1100 per rifle includes this royalty fee or excludes it.
The viable option would to just scrap this deal and go for local production of Arsenal AR-M5TB or AR-M5F41 with Kalyani group as your local partner.
Other option which exists is to go for the SSS Defence P-72