Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Johny_Baba]

FN SCAR
View attachment 67463
Bushmaster ACR
View attachment 67464
Both look very similar to each other(externally) as well as to INDRA rifle.

Of course both were competitor in SCAR competition so yeah.

Internally they are also same as they are derivatives of AR-18,except in certain places like gas system, bolt carrier and of course ergonomics.
Internally ACR is more near to AR-18 in terms of working, SCAR is improved in that regard, while in terms of control and ergonomics ACR is better while SCAR is more traditional in approach.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Has the INDRA rifle been tested?

 

[Killbot]

extremely untrue, alot of modern cartridges perform way better at armour penetration.

Better than hard steel core or black tip 7.62*39? Don't think so. Compare apples to apples. Armor pirtcing bullets to armor piercing bullets.

 

[Killbot]

Of course both were competitor in SCAR competition so yeah.

Internally they are also same as they are derivatives of AR-18,except in certain places like gas system, bolt carrier and of course ergonomics.
Internally ACR is more near to AR-18 in terms of working, SCAR is improved in that regard, while in terms of control and ergonomics ACR is better while SCAR is more traditional in approach.

Is that Astr defence or whatever gun SSP operated?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Is that Astr defence or whatever gun SSP operated?

^This one is Indra from Astr Defense, that i think is based on FN SCAR

The one in stand is,of course,7.62 NATO variant juging from thicc magazine.While they have claimed that they also have a series in different calibers such as 5.56 NATO and so,they haven't shown much except on their laptop in recent DefExpo2020

Notice 5.56mm 'Carbine',7.62x39mm Assault Rifle and other variants in 7.62 NATO (sorry for extreme potato kwality pic, but this is only thing available from their side they don't even have a website or at least i am not aware bout it).

 

[vampyrbladez]

Going by some of the recent posts, it appears to me that some accounts are pushing for the cancellation of the Sig 716i deal for some unproven indigenous alternative in the guise of an AK 203 and carbine replacement.

All of this being done to tactically stall defence procurement. Nothing short of sabotage.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Interesting thing about Astr defence is they are a new company which was established in Hubli, Karnataka in Setember 2019. They unveiled their prototype in February 2020 Defence expo. Very little is known about this company and they do not even have a website.Now there arises four distinct possiblities:

1. They are a young group of engineers right out of college, trying their luck in start-up. They are doing it from the experience learnt in working in B Tech. projects.

2. One of the guys worked in the West in a reputed small arm's companies and returned to India, to open this new company.

3. They are just a front, for a foreign company to pitch in their product, under Make in India or Atmanirbhar scheme.

4. They are just businessman, trying to assemble guns from off-the shelf purchased components from Western vendors.

If possibility 1 turns out to be true, this is a promising venture. They will gain by tying up with some big manufacturing players like Tata, Bharat forge or even OFB.

If possibility 2 is true, then will good amount of funding (sourced from investors), he can set up a Caracal type company with its own production facilities in India.

If possibility 3 is true, then they are just another one of the long list of local tie-ups like with PLR, MKU etc.

If possibility 4 is true then they are trying to emulate SSS defence, in order to make a quick buck under new Atmanirbhar scheme.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Going by some of the recent posts, it appears to me that some accounts are pushing for the cancellation of the Sig 716i deal for some unproven indigenous alternative in the guise of an AK 203 and carbine replacement.

All of this being done to tactically stall defence procurement. Nothing short of sabotage.

To be fair, this indegeneous mantra is being repeated since Manohar Parrikar's tenure, even when the INSAS mk1c was proved to be succesfull (2015-2016) in army trials and it was stated to be the new standard rifle of IA. But then suddenly in a Army commanader's conference, the caliber required was changed to 7.62*51 from 5.56*45. They Army then sent high level teams in 2016-2017 to global companies to go to their factories and decide which was suitable for IA. As a result Sig 716 and AK 203 was selected. These rifles were never faced any firing or reliability trials in India let alone all weather trials, which are staple for desi products. Then in 2018, Bipin Rawat said in a press conference, that since OFB R2 rifle is not yet matured, army is forced to go for emergency purchase of Sig 716 for frontline and rest requirement will be met from indegeneous options.

Hence, you can expect pushback from OFB and private vendors like SSS defence and PLR, since the Government as well as army is repeatedly organizing seminars and conference saying indegenenization is our mantra, atmanirbhar, setting up of MIC etc, which they are hearing for the last decade.

 

[vampyrbladez]

To be fair, this indegeneous mantra is being repeated since Manohar Parrikar's tenure, even when the INSAS mk1c was proved to be succesfull (2015-2016) in army trials and it was stated to be the new standard rifle of IA. But then suddenly in a Army commanader's conference, the caliber required was changed to 7.62*51 from 5.56*45. They Army then sent high level teams in 2016-2017 to global companies to go to their factories and decide which was suitable for IA. As a result Sig 716 and AK 203 was selected. These rifles were never faced any firing or reliability trials in India let alone all weather trials, which are staple for desi products. Then in 2018, Bipin Rawat said in a press conference, that since OFB R2 rifle is not yet matured, army is forced to go for emergency purchase of Sig 716 for frontline and rest requirement will be met from indegeneous options.

Hence, you can expect pushback from OFB and private vendors like SSS defence and PLR, since the Government as well as army is repeatedly organizing seminars and conference saying indegenenization is our mantra, atmanirbhar, setting up of MIC etc, which they are hearing for the last decade.

Given Indian conditions, requirements and budgets, the Sig 716i is ideal for our needs.

The 7.62x51 mm round is a shoot to kill round and is effective against LVL III/IV body armor which professional military units use.

The SLR has a rat tail buffer which does not provide adequate recoil management under semi and full auto conditions. The AR 10 does with its direct impingement and buffer tube.

The INSAS MK1C is the same faulty design scaled to 7.62x51 mm used for providing overtime price increases to OFB.

The Indra Astr defence rifle has not been tested by the Indian Army or even trialled by an police unit. It is a good step but has nothing to back it.

Cancellation of the deal is an act of sabotage to military preparedness and evidence of sinister design.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Interesting thing about Astr defence is they are a new company which was established in Hubli, Karnataka in Setember 2019. They unveiled their prototype in February 2020 Defence expo. Very little is known about this company and they do not even have a website.Now there arises four distinct possiblities:

1. They are a young group of engineers right out of college, trying their luck in start-up. They are doing it from the experience learnt in working in B Tech. projects.

2. One of the guys worked in the West in a reputed small arm's companies and returned to India, to open this new company.

3. They are just a front, for a foreign company to pitch in their product, under Make in India or Atmanirbhar scheme.

4. They are just businessman, trying to assemble guns from off-the shelf purchased components from Western vendors.

If possibility 1 turns out to be true, this is a promising venture. They will gain by tying up with some big manufacturing players like Tata, Bharat forge or even OFB.

If possibility 2 is true, then will good amount of funding (sourced from investors), he can set up a Caracal type company with its own production facilities in India.

If possibility 3 is true, then they are just another one of the long list of local tie-ups like with PLR, MKU etc.

If possibility 4 is true then they are trying to emulate SSS defence, in order to make a quick buck under new Atmanirbhar scheme.

MKU is the front of which foreign company?

 

[Killbot]

MKU is the front of which foreign company?

Either Caracal or Thales.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

Either Caracal or Thales.

That's for rifles right, and not for BPJ and helmets?

 

[Killbot]

That's for rifles right, and not for BPJ and helmets?

Yes. They make their own ballistic gear. And good stuff at that. They don't need foreign companies to JV with them for helmets and BPJs and such.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Going by some of the recent posts, it appears to me that some accounts are pushing for the cancellation of the Sig 716i deal for some unproven indigenous alternative in the guise of an AK 203 and carbine replacement.

All of this being done to tactically stall defence procurement. Nothing short of sabotage.

I don't think anyone is trying to sabotage anything nor we can. Sig had a shady past and DI rifles aren't fit for all terrain and we have already ordered the required number.

Many people were going gaga over a tweet by former army personnel suggesting Sig is better than Ak 203 . Truth is its all marketing by Sig to get more order.

That aside most of us want an Indian solution and involvement to some extent. The reason is simple it hurts to know that we are dependent on from rifles to Rafale on foreign companies.

It is Ak 203 deal which is getting the most flack here now and put under scrutiny. Personally I prefer Galil ace but apparently there is a huge price difference and it seems the deal for Negev and Ak 203 are more political in nature too.

Now we have many better option to explore and we shouldn't shy away from doing so.

 

[Killswitch]

At the end of the day, the AK 203, SIG 716, and Negev 7 are major improvements over what is currently being used. Old AKs, INSAS, Brens, PKMS, and SVDs should have been replaced shortly after the 1999 Kargil war. The sooner they are inducted and made in India, the better.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

SIG with BEL Holo, AKs with BEL Holo & INSAS LMG

 

[vampyrbladez]

I don't think anyone is trying to sabotage anything nor we can. Sig had a shady past and DI rifles aren't fit for all terrain and we have already ordered the required number.

Many people were going gaga over a tweet by former army personnel suggesting Sig is better than Ak 203 . Truth is its all marketing by Sig to get more order.

That aside most of us want an Indian solution and involvement to some extent. The reason is simple it hurts to know that we are dependent on from rifles to Rafale on foreign companies.

It is Ak 203 deal which is getting the most flack here now and put under scrutiny. Personally I prefer Galil ace but apparently there is a huge price difference and it seems the deal for Negev and Ak 203 are more political in nature too.

Now we have many better option to explore and we shouldn't shy away from doing so.

Given pricing and requirements, Sig 716i is the best. DI shines with full automatic fire in 7.62x51 mm due to low recoil, mid length gas system and double ejector.

GALIL @ $1600 is pure fraud. Too overpriced for what it brings to the table.

 

[Killbot]

Given pricing and requirements, Sig 716i is the best. DI shines with full automatic fire in 7.62x51 mm due to low recoil, mid length gas system and double ejector.

GALIL @ $1600 is pure fraud. Too overpriced for what it brings to the table.

$1600 is the US civilian market price. It has to be imported from Israel as a parts kit and assembled in US. Customs and taxes apply. And then there is shipping cost. Without these restrictions, it would cost between $1000-$1100, approx. And that much is very well worth what the IWI ACE brings on the table compared to any AK or direct AK copy.

The recoil will still be bad. You wouldn't want to be firing from a 20 round magazine at full auto anyway, wrt the Sig. And firing full auto from a DI gun means a shitload of dust in the chamber. Besides, where its DI system really shines is accuracy. No point using full auto, unless you have at least a 30 round mag and a bipod.

The real fraud is ₹85000 for a vanilla AK. 2 extra rails is the only advantage we are getting over the 70 year old AKMS with our AK """""203"""""..

 

[vampyrbladez]

$1600 is the US civilian market price. It has to be imported from Israel as a parts kit and assembled in US. Customs and taxes apply. And then there is shipping cost. Without these restrictions, it would cost between $1000-$1100, approx. And that much is very well worth what the IWI ACE brings on the table compared to any AK or direct AK copy.

The recoil will still be bad. You wouldn't want to be firing from a 20 round magazine at full auto anyway, wrt the Sig. And firing full auto from a DI gun means a shitload of dust in the chamber. Besides, where its DI system really shines is accuracy. No point using full auto, unless you have at least a 30 round mag and a bipod.

$1600 was tender price for GALIL ACE.

DI with double ejector in the bolt will help with removing dirty rounds like OFB 7.62x51 mm. Additionally the mid length gas system burns most residue before it enters the chamber which itself is coated in Nitride.

Full auto is for CQB role. That's where it is needed.

 

[Killbot]

$1600 is the US civilian market price. It has to be imported from Israel as a parts kit and assembled in US. Customs and taxes apply. And then there is shipping cost. Without these restrictions, it would cost between $1000-$1100, approx. And that much is very well worth what the IWI ACE brings on the table compared to any AK or direct AK copy.

The recoil will still be bad. You wouldn't want to be firing from a 20 round magazine at full auto anyway, wrt the Sig. And firing full auto from a DI gun means a shitload of dust in the chamber. Besides, where its DI system really shines is accuracy. No point using full auto, unless you have at least a 30 round mag and a bipod.

The real fraud is ₹85000 for a vanilla AK. 2 extra rails is the only advantage we are getting over the 70 year old AKMS with our AK """""203"""""..

But Sig 716 is the best platform for LoC, as they don't need to be lugged around too much. Soldiers will mostly be encamped in bunkers with large quantities of ammo..