Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Hari Sud]

The AK103s will be utterly bog standard, no P-rails, no optics, no pistol grips, no collapsible buttstocks, no flashlights etc etc

With the AK-103 the IA is commiting itself to be a third world nation Army for another 20-30 years.

Who is paying you to say all those. Ak103 is a preferred Army weapon after Sig Sayer.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

The AK103s will be utterly bog standard, no P-rails, no optics, no pistol grips, no collapsible buttstocks, no flashlights etc etc

With the AK-103 the IA is commiting itself to be a third world nation Army for another 20-30 years.

If they are buying the AK 103 in its standard configuration, that would be a grave mistake and will only add expenses later on when they will want to inevitably modify it to add attachments. With many systems like automatic rangefinder and target acquisition systems becoming cheaper, we can expect them to become standard gear in the next 12-15 years, and they will need picatinny rails to mix and match the correct attachments for the mission.

 

[Hari Sud]

If they are buying the AK 103 in its standard configuration, that would be a grave mistake and will only add expenses later on when they will want to inevitably modify it to add attachments. With many systems like automatic rangefinder and target acquisition systems becoming cheaper, we can expect them to become standard gear in the next 12-15 years, and they will need picatinny rails to mix and match the correct attachments for the mission.

It is coming with attachments. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that P- rail is attached, but no police type flashlights. If anything is to be attached then it is going to be grenade launcher and collapsible butt stock. That is what Russian special forces have as an attachments.

Do not underestimate the power Ak103.

 

[abingdonboy]

If they are buying the AK 103 in its standard configuration, that would be a grave mistake and will only add expenses later on when they will want to inevitably modify it to add attachments. With many systems like automatic rangefinder and target acquisition systems becoming cheaper, we can expect them to become standard gear in the next 12-15 years, and they will need picatinny rails to mix and match the correct attachments for the mission.

They will 100% be standard configuration with 0 modern features (they won't even have P-rails).

The IA seems disinterested in being a modern army, they just want their kickbacks and the MOD/GoI is clueless and all too happy to placate the Russians.

 

[abingdonboy]

It is coming with attachments. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that P- rail is attached, but no police type flashlights. If anything is to be attached then it is going to be grenade launcher and collapsible butt stock. That is what Russian special forces have as an attachments.

Do not underestimate the power Ak103.

Russian SFs don't use the AK-103 they use the modern AK-12/AK200 family- even their regular units are starting to get it.

There's no real market for the outdated AK-103 anymore so naturally the Russians offload it to the corrupt Indians with a huge markup.

Bog standard AK-103 the IA thinks is "futureproof":

^ This is the rifle IA soldiers will be running around with in the 2040s, it seems the IA is determined to always be 50+ years behind the rest of the world.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Russian SFs don't use the AK-103 they use the modern AK-12/AK200 family- even their regular units are starting to get it.

View attachment 29265

There's no real market for the outdated AK-103 anymore so naturally the Russians offload it to the corrupt Indians with a huge markup.

Bog standard AK-103 the IA thinks is "futureproof":

^ This is the rifle IA soldiers will be running around with in the 2040s, it seems the IA is determined to always be 50+ years behind the rest of the world.

To be fair, mechanically the Ak 103 is reliable, and accurate upto 500m, so the rifle itself is decent. My only complaint is that they should buy ACOG type sights as standard with these rifles (at least for all deployed troops), along with having collapsible buttstock and picatinny rails on all rifles. Buying it as it is would be a mistake. And if they are sticking with iron sights, then at least the sights should be modified to something like the AK 12, where the rear sight is all the way in the back, rather than keeping the tradition AK sights which have been proven inferior.


We should produce the AK 103 in a similar configuation.

 

[abingdonboy]

To be fair, mechanically the Ak 103 is reliable, and accurate upto 500m, so the rifle itself is decent. My only complaint is that they should buy ACOG type sights as standard with these rifles (at least for all deployed troops), along with having collapsible buttstock and picatinny rails on all rifles. Buying it as it is would be a mistake. And if they are sticking with iron sights, then at least the sights should be modified to something like the AK 12, where the rear sight is all the way in the back, rather than keeping the tradition AK sights which have been proven inferior.


We should produce the AK 103 in a similar configuation.

Agreed with all but my point is they won't be spec'd up, they will be delivered in their bog standard cofiguration and the Media, politicans and most disgustingly of all the IA will swoon over these "new" weapons.

Get used to this image, it will define the IA's small arms for the next 30+ years:

Cutting edge.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Agreed with all but my point is they won't be spec'd up, they will be delivered in their bog standard cofiguration and the Media, politicans and most disgustingly of all the IA will swoon over these "new" weapons.

Get used to this image, it will define the IA's small arms for the next 30+ years:

Cutting edge.

If this is the configuration they are getting it in, the top Brass of the Indian army has made its contempt of regular soldiers very clear. I don't know what enmity India's military planners have with the concept of a modern regular infantryman. Not only in this case, but over the past 18 years, the gear and combat uniform of the regular Indian soldier has had an extremely third world appearance. Whether it be in the type of body armour (or lack thereof), the camouflage pattern, the helmets, carrying packs etc, standard Indian soldiers have had the same appearance as any third world rag tag army.

 

[rkhanna]

I think we are jumping the gun.

AFAIK the AKs are NOT going to line infantry but second echelon / rear echelon troops Military units and COIN. CAPF / Para Mils and State Police units Coast guard etc will get indian Made fire arms (Ghataks etc)

General Rawat in his latest interview stated that line infantry will get the "BEST" weapons from small arms to RCLs etc while Second line personel (Engineering / Armoured Units, Etc) will get "Good" weapons

 

[mohitbhagat]

The AK103s will be utterly bog standard, no P-rails, no optics, no pistol grips, no collapsible buttstocks, no flashlights etc etc

With the AK-103 the IA is commiting itself to be a third world nation Army for another 20-30 years.

Wait for the final agreement. Most probably it's going to be Ak15 instead of Ak103. And Ak15 comes with everything modern generation guns should have except stamped metal parts instead of machined ones and modern furniture. Other than that it got everything from retractable buttstock, 360°picatiny rails which means everything from handgrip to grenade launcher and optical sights to flashlights, free floating barrel, etc etc

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I think we are jumping the gun.

AFAIK the AKs are NOT going to line infantry but second echelon / rear echelon troops Military units and COIN. CAPF / Para Mils and State Police units Coast guard etc will get indian Made fire arms (Ghataks etc)

General Rawat in his latest interview stated that line infantry will get the "BEST" weapons from small arms to RCLs etc while Second line personel (Engineering / Armoured Units, Etc) will get "Good" weapons

In the event of a two front war, we can expect 600,000-700,000 infantry engaged in battle, especially if you add the extra half front. We are getting 72,000 Sig Sauers, and another 94,000 carbines, which means the remaining 434,000-534,000 troops will be fighting with AK's. In an actual war, they will no longer be "rear echelon". They will be facing the same conventional forces that the previously mentioned "line infantry" will be facing. In such an event, is equipping only 166,000 troops with top of the line equipment enough?

 

[rkhanna]

In the event of a two front war, we can expect 600,000-700,000 infantry engaged in battle, especially if you add the extra half front. We are getting 72,000 Sig Sauers, and another 94,000 carbines, which means the remaining 434,000-534,000 troops will be fighting with AK's. In an actual war, they will no longer be "rear echelon". They will be facing the same conventional forces that the previously mentioned "line infantry" will be facing. In such an event, is equipping only 166,000 troops with top of the line equipment enough?

There is so much white noise that i dont know what to make of it. But I dont think the Sig and Carbine orders will be limited to 72K and 94K. I believe when the General meant Infantry he meant the Strike and Holding Corps not just the men sitting on the IB and LOC

Because if you are right then that means our logistic chain has to content with

5.56mm ammo
7.62/50 Ammo
7.62/39 ammo
9mm ammo
.50Cal ammo

Spare Parts / barels etc for all the guns and not just maintaining production quality but also running the ammo up and down the mountains / valleys and deserts and marshlands and try to get the right ammo to the right unit at the right time in a flexible battlefield where units will be working together.


Anybody see the sheer stupidity in that?

 

[vkp171083]

http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...ikovs-Deal-With-Russia-Before-Year-End-581377

 

[abingdonboy]

If this is the configuration they are getting it in, the top Brass of the Indian army has made its contempt of regular soldiers very clear. I don't know what enmity India's military planners have with the concept of a modern regular infantryman. Not only in this case, but over the past 18 years, the gear and combat uniform of the regular Indian soldier has had an extremely third world appearance. Whether it be in the type of body armour (or lack thereof), the camouflage pattern, the helmets, carrying packs etc, standard Indian soldiers have had the same appearance as any third world rag tag army.

Contempt and indifference are absolutely the case.

They are celebrating inducting already outdated ACH and they will tout inducting basic AK103s as a major success for modernisation- watch this space.

It doesn’t matter to the senior brass that their soldiers look like African militias.

I think we are jumping the gun.

AFAIK the AKs are NOT going to line infantry but second echelon / rear echelon troops Military units and COIN. CAPF / Para Mils and State Police units Coast guard etc will get indian Made fire arms (Ghataks etc)

General Rawat in his latest interview stated that line infantry will get the "BEST" weapons from small arms to RCLs etc while Second line personel (Engineering / Armoured Units, Etc) will get "Good" weapons

Wow. Show me another military that’s operates such a ridiculous policy? Having different rifles for their “frontline” and “secondary” units and that top of totally different calibres. I've never seen anything so stupid.

So the “frontline” troops (whoever they are) will get a 7.62*51 rifle
Non-frontline troops will get the AK103 7.62*39

Frontline commanders/specialists will get a 5.56*45 carbine

There will be a separate deal for a make in India 5.56*45 carbine

And the DRDO JVPC 5.56*30 will also be inducted for god knows who.

That is FOUR different calibres from FIVE different OEMs.

You literally couldn’t make a more counter productive, inefficient and wasteful plan than this.

The army is using this as another opportunity to take kickbacks. Instead of getting their palms greased by just 1-2 OEMS they now have the chance to get their $$$ from 3-4.


I mean the mental gymnastics you have to engage in to justify this fractured procurement effort says it all.

Wait for the final agreement. Most probably it's going to be Ak15 instead of Ak103. And Ak15 comes with everything modern generation guns should have except stamped metal parts instead of machined ones and modern furniture. Other than that it got everything from retractable buttstock, 360°picatiny rails which means everything from handgrip to grenade launcher and optical sights to flashlights, free floating barrel, etc etc

Wishful thinking. At no point has AK15 been mentioned. It’s AK103, we all need to accept that. The very fact that some are trying to mitigate this news proves that it is a regressive step that doesn’t promote a modern arms.

 

[abingdonboy]

There is so much white noise that i dont know what to make of it. But I dont think the Sig and Carbine orders will be limited to 72K and 94K. I believe when the General meant Infantry he meant the Strike and Holding Corps not just the men sitting on the IB and LOC

Because if you are right then that means our logistic chain has to content with

5.56mm ammo
7.62/50 Ammo
7.62/39 ammo
9mm ammo
.50Cal ammo

Spare Parts / barels etc for all the guns and not just maintaining production quality but also running the ammo up and down the mountains / valleys and deserts and marshlands and try to get the right ammo to the right unit at the right time in a flexible battlefield where units will be working together.


Anybody see the sheer stupidity in that?

Assume the worst and you will still be disappointed when the actual reality of the Army’s plans is revealed. It’s always a case of 1 step foreword, 5 back.


What’s baffles me is that through it all they have avoided the most obvious and efficient solution- IWI. Get the Tavor 7 for the 7.62 roles, get the X95 for the 5.56 carbine (if you really need it) and get the Negev for the LMG role. Job. Done. All are already made in India and in service in India.

But of course that would mean the IA selection teams don’t get to fly around the world on all expense paid trips.


I just cannot believe that the IA seems to have picked a carbine from the UAE of all places.

This ha blatant corruption or at the very least incompetence but where is the accountability? The media are cheerleading this becuase they think it is somehow progress.

 

[mohitbhagat]

To be fair, mechanically the Ak 103 is reliable, and accurate upto 500m, so the rifle itself is decent. My only complaint is that they should buy ACOG type sights as standard with these rifles (at least for all deployed troops), along with having collapsible buttstock and picatinny rails on all rifles. Buying it as it is would be a mistake. And if they are sticking with iron sights, then at least the sights should be modified to something like the AK 12, where the rear sight is all the way in the back, rather than keeping the tradition AK sights which have been proven inferior.


We should produce the AK 103 in a similar configuation.

It's an Ak Alfa...... Made by Kalasnikov Israel..... Owned by CAA Tacticals

 

[mohitbhagat]

There is so much white noise that i dont know what to make of it. But I dont think the Sig and Carbine orders will be limited to 72K and 94K. I believe when the General meant Infantry he meant the Strike and Holding Corps not just the men sitting on the IB and LOC

Because if you are right then that means our logistic chain has to content with

5.56mm ammo
7.62/50 Ammo
7.62/39 ammo
9mm ammo
.50Cal ammo

Spare Parts / barels etc for all the guns and not just maintaining production quality but also running the ammo up and down the mountains / valleys and deserts and marshlands and try to get the right ammo to the right unit at the right time in a flexible battlefield where units will be working together.


Anybody see the sheer stupidity in that?

You're forgetting 338 lapua, 300 win mag etc

 

[abingdonboy]

It's an Ak Alfa...... Made by Kalasnikov Israel..... Owned by CAA Tacticals

And if you think the IA is going to get anything resembling that, you are dreaming. Imagine the mkst basic AK you can imagine, that is what they are about to order and that is what will serve with the IA in vast numbers until 2040-50.

Imagine that, the basic AK103 will be serving with the IA over 100 years but since it was first produced (1947) when india is the 2nd/3rd largest economy on the planet.

Disappointment doesn’t even begin to cover my feelings on this topic. What a disgrace.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Contempt and indifference are absolutely the case.

They are celebrating inducting already outdated ACH and they will tout inducting basic AK103s as a major success for modernisation- watch this space.

It doesn’t matter to the senior brass that their soldiers look like African militias.




Wow. Show me another military that’s operates such a ridiculous policy? Having different rifles for their “frontline” and “secondary” units and that top of totally different calibres. I've never seen anything so stupid.

So the “frontline” troops (whoever they are) will get a 7.62*51 rifle
Non-frontline troops will get the AK103 7.62*39

Frontline commanders/specialists will get a 5.56*45 carbine

There will be a separate deal for a make in India 5.56*45 carbine

And the DRDO JVPC 5.56*30 will also be inducted for god knows who.

That is FOUR different calibres from FIVE different OEMs.

You literally couldn’t make a more counter productive, inefficient and wasteful plan than this.

The army is using this as another opportunity to take kickbacks. Instead of getting their palms greased by just 1-2 OEMS they now have the chance to get their $$$ from 3-4.


I mean the mental gymnastics you have to engage in to justify this fractured procurement effort says it all.


Wishful thinking. At no point has AK15 been mentioned. It’s AK103, we all need to accept that. The very fact that some are trying to mitigate this news proves that it is a regressive step that doesn’t promote a modern arms.

Well lets see what happens.......
If army really adopts a rifle which Russia itself is not using then we're going to need a lot of meditation classes to control our irritation.....
We're getting sigs @$990 per rifle. And if we still going for an old Ak103... Then god save us...

 

[mohitbhagat]

Assume the worst and you will still be disappointed when the actual reality of the Army’s plans is revealed. It’s always a case of 1 step foreword, 5 back.


What’s baffles me is that through it all they have avoided the most obvious and efficient solution- IWI. Get the Tavor 7 for the 7.62 roles, get the X95 for the 5.56 carbine (if you really need it) and get the Negev for the LMG role. Job. Done. All are already made in India and in service in India.

But of course that would mean the IA selection teams don’t get to fly around the world on all expense paid trips.


I just cannot believe that the IA seems to have picked a carbine from the UAE of all places.

This ha blatant corruption or at the very least incompetence but where is the accountability? The media are cheerleading this becuase they think it is somehow progress.

Well the iwi lost in both tenders by Sig & Caracal. And about the UAE carbine.... It's a really good one. People know very less about it but its an excellent weapon... So don't worry about it