Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Maddy_9UY]

It is obvious that bulk orders mean lower prices that's why Sig is L1 bidder but you are confusing two categories caracel is L1 for carbines will replace 9mm carbine and Sig Sauer 716 will replace assault rifles which is basically akm and insas

Also the cost of a 7.62 X 51 rifle would be higher as it requires different metallurgy and a stronger barrel due to the heavy round.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Video of AK 103 accuracy with iron sights.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Is there any info on what optics they will have on the SIG and the AK? Will there be any optics as standard with the AK 103 acquisition?

 

[devhensh]

It is obvious that bulk orders mean lower prices that's why Sig is L1 bidder but you are confusing two categories caracel is L1 for carbines will replace 9mm carbine and Sig Sauer 716 will replace assault rifles which is basically akm and insas

I think it's you who's confused and not me , becuase :

1. I was answering the question posed by another member, that is it worth going for SIG ($3000) in place of Caracal($1000)....Caracal makes both, CAR 816(5.56) and CAR 817(7.62) and i was referring to CAR 817...... Carcal submitted both rifles and SIG 762 G2 outbid CAR 817...as there can't be any apples to oranges comparison....simple !

2. Secondly, IA is not replacing 9mm carbine with anything.....When they say carbine they mean 5.56x45 rifles......The only two calibers for this tender are 7.62x51 Battle rifle/ DMR and 5.56x45 Carbine....there is a separate tender for 7.62x39 (i think AK 103 is shorlisted).....

Also , Bulk orders don't always mean lower prices in case of WEAPON SYSTEMS....Case in point, neither FN SCAR nor HK have reduced thier prices...please update your knowledge base !

 

[aarav]

I think it's you who's confused and not me , becuase :

1. I was answering the question posed by another member, that is it worth going for SIG ($3000) in place of Caracal($1000)....Caracal makes both, CAR 816(5.56) and CAR 817(7.62) and i was referring to CAR 817...... Carcal submitted both rifles and SIG 762 G2 outbid CAR 817...as there can't be any apples to oranges comparison....simple !

2. Secondly, IA is not replacing 9mm carbine with anything.....When they say carbine they mean 5.56x45 rifles......The only two calibers for this tender are 7.62x51 Battle rifle/ DMR and 5.56x45 Carbine....there is a separate tender for 7.62x39 (i think AK 103 is shorlisted).....

Also , Bulk orders don't always mean lower prices in case of WEAPON SYSTEMS....Case in point, neither FN SCAR nor HK have reduced thier prices...please update your knowledge base !

you do know how the L1 tender works ,don't you ? The lowest priced rifle wins the contract ,so you are quoting your prices wrong or as i said before the bulk orders have made SIG Sauer lower its prices

 

[aarav]

NSG does have SIG 716 dmr

 

[devhensh]

you do know how the L1 tender works ,don't you ? The lowest priced rifle wins the contract ,so you are quoting your prices wrong or as i said before the bulk orders have made SIG Sauer lower its prices

It was another member, who was quoting $3000 for the SIG and i was correcting him by saying that, if Caracal had quoted 1000$ , it would have been the winner....Fact , is that, nobody knows the exact quoted per unit price....

Please atleast read the thread carefully, before quoting somebody , out of context....

 

[ShoorVeer]

It was another member, who was quoting $3000 for the SIG and i was correcting him by saying that, if Caracal had quoted 1000$ , it would have been the winner....Fact , is that, nobody knows the exact quoted per unit price....

Please atleast read the thread carefully, before quoting somebody , out of context....

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/army-to-acquire-rifles-carbines/article25105913.ece

Quoting directly from the article here, "Sig Sauer of the U.S. has emerged the lowest bidder with a quote of around $990 for the SIG 716 rifle. Caracal from the UAE made the lowest bid of around $1150 for its CAR 816 carbine".

If this information is correct, then it clarifies all your doubts.

 

[AnantS]

Does this RFI also asks for Local manufacture of Guns or ToT of Metallurgy?

 

[ezsasa]

Does this RFI also asks for Local manufacture of Guns or ToT of Metallurgy?

Nope............... only category of procurement from DPP 2016 would be mentioned.

 

[Chinmoy]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/army-to-acquire-rifles-carbines/article25105913.ece

Quoting directly from the article here, "Sig Sauer of the U.S. has emerged the lowest bidder with a quote of around $990 for the SIG 716 rifle. Caracal from the UAE made the lowest bid of around $1150 for its CAR 816 carbine".

If this information is correct, then it clarifies all your doubts.

In govt tender, when there are multiple L1 bidder on technical bid, the user usually goes for reverse auction in commercial bid.
This might be the case here.

 

[Hari Sud]

God knows that this L1 bidder may fail. Since there is no TOT or local manufacture even spare parts for next twenty years are to be imported then you may see end of Sig Sayer negotiations during commercial negotiations.

As Chinmoy says above, - reverse auction of the commercial bid may ultimately win. I do not know, what is reverse auction, but he may be right.

My point here is that Sig is L1 but not the winner as yet.

There may be a bit of keeping US happy on S-400 deal by offering all kinds of contracts to offset there CAATSA over reaction.

 

[Chinmoy]

God knows that this L1 bidder may fail. Since there is no TOT or local manufacture even spare parts for next twenty years are to be imported then you may see end of Sig Sayer negotiations during commercial negotiations.

As Chinmoy says above, - reverse auction of the commercial bid may ultimately win. I do not know, what is reverse auction, but he may be right.

My point here is that Sig is L1 but not the winner as yet.

There may be a bit of keeping US happy on S-400 deal by offering all kinds of contracts to offset there CAATSA over reaction.

Reverse auction is a process to get service or product at dirt cheap rate. This might be the case as we are not going for ToT.

What happens in a reverse auction is that the bidders quote minimum price on L1 basis.
For example if there are 5 bidders for any product, and the L1 price be Rs100 per product. Then client invites other technical qualifiers for a reverse auction. This way they gives a second opportunity to others too. Now the auction starts from Rs 100 and it keeps going down on percentage basis untill one emerges as the lowest bidder.

Now this might or might not be the case in MoD.

 

[Hari Sud]

It is quite possible that as Chinmoy explains in reverse auction that Sig Sayer 716 may not make into the final cut. This bidding is to continue until the lowest price is reached either by Sig, Caracal and Israeli rifles which were part of the three contenders for Indian Army contract.

Prefer the decision to be sooner than later.

 

[Armand2REP]

If there was ever a defence product India needed complete self sufficiency in it is their standard assault rifle. The IA has the economies of scale to reduce the price like few militaries can which could make it a best seller around the globe. All it has to be is of a similar quality to others on the market, it doesn't have to be better.

 

[Hari Sud]

This acquisition of Battle or assault rifle has completely disappeared from the news. Is the Sig Sayer is the final choice?

Is their going to be second round of reverse bidding?

This acquisition is of high priority, there must be very high powered rounds of discussion going on in the Army and MOD.

Where are we now......

 

[Aaj ka hero]

This acquisition of Battle or assault rifle has completely disappeared from the news. Is the Sig Sayer is the final choice?

Is their going to be second round of reverse bidding?

This acquisition is of high priority, there must be very high powered rounds of discussion going on in the Army and MOD.

Where are we now......

I really wish this tender to collapse, man this is NATIONAL shame.
Buying attack drones, heavy lift helicopters, anti-tank munitions can be understood buuut buying rifles and dreaming of shedding the tag of world largest importer of weapons
How the hell both can be possible.

 

[mohitbhagat]

This is going to sound very superficial, but I just don't like the thought of Kalashnikovs being the main assault rifle for the Indian army. They do not have a modern appearance and almost no professional army uses them as standard. I'm sure the AK 103 is modern and will suit the requirements of the army, but I don't like the visuals in my head of Kalashnikovs becoming standard for most troops.

I hope they at least have picatinny rails and adjustable buttstock as standard.

Let's see what happens. In India decisions changes within days. Who knows 716 ends up being the standard issue assault rifle for our army. When they can quote $990 per rifle in a tender for 72400 rifles you can well imagine how much they will quote when the stake is for more than 7 lakhs odd rifles

 

[mohitbhagat]

I dont know why they're making things complicated by having one group with AR15 babies, then another with a whole different AK line.

Because we're Indians we do things other armies finds absurd

 

[mohitbhagat]

Can somebody educate us on the merits and demerits of the Sig Rifle.

It is not the most popular make internationally but it is AR -15 Avatar. There are other AR 15 Avatars in America, all similarly priced at about $3000 retail. Indian Army preferred this one for some good reasons. Yes, Sig from Switzerland is a famous gun maker. For some reason they went to US to make it and price it for India.

Does the deal include assemble in India only or there is TOT so that India could in future learn about metallurgy and machining of American rifles. The latter puts Indian built rifles far apart.

US is the largest civilian market in the world and consumes more small arms than many military alone. Every famous small arms manufacturer manufactures their rifles in US including Kalasnikov and IWI.
The sig 716 rifle which won the competition is based on the ar10 platform and uses a short stroke gas piston system. In American civilian market it MSRP at $2385 per rifle for this patrol version. It won the tender because it quoted the lowest price of $990 per piece. Whether it includes tot or not is yet to be known