Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[mohitbhagat]

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AK's can be pretty too.

Take a look at Ak Alfa of Kalasnikov Israel owned by CAA

 

[mohitbhagat]

As far as I know, AK is although isn't reliable but has very precise accuracy up to 200 meters (I could be wrong). It's the only weapon with enough stopping power, 1 bullet is all you need to stop a 90kg mass to a full stop. Hell Ya. Russian army uses it, so something might be good about it.

Can somebody throw more light to why this weapon was chosen and why are GHATAK rifle ain't come close to it. Kab tak foreign mal chalega? If my memory serves me right, PA is also ordered SIG SAUR rifles although not sure about make, barrel and rounds and chamber.

One thing I do see is the barrel length, is it 16 or 12 inch barrel. Hmm interesting.

Who said Ak isn't reliable . Ak is known for it's reliability more than any other rifle. And modern Ak have an effective range upto 600m. Normal barrel length is around 16.3". PA might be using it with their SFs. Ghatak are just a copy of older Ak. And seriously lacks quality. It can be used for policing and with paramilitaries. But is simply not good enough for a modern military use

 

[mohitbhagat]

Still not convinced with the selection of a 7.62x51 mm rifle unless used as a DMR.
I think Insas was an excellent concept totally screwed up by OFB's quality control.
I still think we can rework the Insas by inviting pvt. players. Similar to what British did to the SA80.

Problem with our army is that we are in a constant state of war with the terrorists. And 5.56 is simply isn't adequate against the terrorists and neither is accurate at long distance with Insas.

 

[mohitbhagat]

View attachment 28632 If it is Sig Sauer 716 DMR than it will be game up from that Soviet relic Dragunov but it is priced $1000 more but effective range around 950m also have 20 rounds significantly more than dragunov

The tender was for 716 patrol version. If this deal gets signed then its just the matter of time when sig Sauer 716 dmr gets adopted as dmr. Minimum effective range of 716 dmr is 800m. And yes it costs almost a $1000 more than the patrol version. SVD is way past its prime. It's time we adopt a new one

 

[mohitbhagat]

So how does it compare with Tavor?

Which one 5.56 nato chambered or 7.62 nato chambered tavor...........

 

[mohitbhagat]

The actual rifle would be SIG DMR G2(Generation 2). According to very knowledgeable sources here is US, it's a very very accurate(1/2 to 3/4 MOA), very reliable and modular. It's way more accutate than the Dragunov (a dedicated DMR) and outclasses Tavor in accuracy and range....Also, it's more versatile than a dedicated DMR as it can be used and a Patrol Rifle / Battle rifle too..

It's in the same class of very high quality DMRs like HK 417 and LMT DMR. Also, i think our NSG acquired these rifles in numbers, and NSG goes only for the very best !!!

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/09/foghorn/gun-review-sig-sauer-716-g2-dmr/
https://www.fieldandstream.com/gun-review-sig-716-dmr-g2

The snapshot below is what is posted in some other thread but this will add to the above....

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
If this news about SIG 7.62x51 rifle is true......It's very good news !!!
It would be even better if we adopt the SIG MCX Virtus (in 5.56 and .300 Black out)..... That way Indian Army can have a single type weapon platform (almost) for all three caliber IA uses (7.62x51, 7.62x39, 5.56x45)....as .300 blackout is very very similar to 7.62x39 and more versatile......

Also, the SIG MCX Virtus is the best and most advanced 5.56 platform today, as per me....It easily beats HK 416....and many German and many many European police and anti terrorist special units have adopted it...and you'll see many more adopting it in future.......
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/26/review-sig-sauer-mcx-virtus-rifle/
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An 7.62 nato assault rifle and a 7.62 nato DMR is not a same thing. Unlike sig Sauer 716 g2 patrol version sig Sauer 716 g2 dmr uses a different stock, longer and heavier barrel, a much lighter trigger pull and only semi auto firing mode. Tavor is not known for its accuracy. It's inferior when compared to a AR15 or ar10 platform.
So don't jump the gun a assault rifle/battle rifle is a different thing and a DMR is a different thing. And we are buying a patrol version of sig Sauer 716 not the dmr version of it

 

[mohitbhagat]

Is it a good decision to spend $3000 per rifle. You will buy three Caracal in the same class of rifles.

The assault rifle tender is won by Sig Sauer 716 g2 patrol and it quoted $990 per rifle and the carbine tender is won by Caracal Car 816 and it quoted $1150 per rifle

 

[mohitbhagat]

Sig quoted $990 for assault rifle and Caracal quoted $1150 for carbine

Simple question is .....how do we know that Sig has asked for 3000 $ per rifle and Caracal has Quoted 1000 $ ???

Because if that was the case then Caracal would have been the L1 lowest bidder winner and not Sig......

Just because a gun is priced at 3000$ in US market, doesn't mean that , it would be a quoted price in a major international tender.....Companies often bring down the per unit price, if the numbers are big and the contract is prestigious ...

$

 

[mohitbhagat]

Is there any info on what optics they will have on the SIG and the AK? Will there be any optics as standard with the AK 103 acquisition?

There is an RFI for 16k scopes for 7.62 nato assault rifle and another 16k scopes for lmg.

 

[mohitbhagat]

The thing with the L1 style tendering process is that companies like HK and FN are never going to win it. If the process would be in line with the T1 style process the winner would be among HK and FN. US and European countries follow T1 style process in which the most prominent and promising weapon is selected. This is the reason HK won in US as M27 and French army and German SFs adopted a version of Hk416

I think it's you who's confused and not me , becuase :

1. I was answering the question posed by another member, that is it worth going for SIG ($3000) in place of Caracal($1000)....Caracal makes both, CAR 816(5.56) and CAR 817(7.62) and i was referring to CAR 817...... Carcal submitted both rifles and SIG 762 G2 outbid CAR 817...as there can't be any apples to oranges comparison....simple !

2. Secondly, IA is not replacing 9mm carbine with anything.....When they say carbine they mean 5.56x45 rifles......The only two calibers for this tender are 7.62x51 Battle rifle/ DMR and 5.56x45 Carbine....there is a separate tender for 7.62x39 (i think AK 103 is shorlisted).....

Also , Bulk orders don't always mean lower prices in case of WEAPON SYSTEMS....Case in point, neither FN SCAR nor HK have reduced thier prices...please update your knowledge base !

 

[mohitbhagat]

I really wish this tender to collapse, man this is NATIONAL shame.
Buying attack drones, heavy lift helicopters, anti-tank munitions can be understood buuut buying rifles and dreaming of shedding the tag of world largest importer of weapons
How the hell both can be possible.

Whoever wins will sooner or later be manufacturing in India so don't wish it to be cancelled. Our ofb is shit and

 

[mohitbhagat]

I really wish this tender to collapse, man this is NATIONAL shame.
Buying attack drones, heavy lift helicopters, anti-tank munitions can be understood buuut buying rifles and dreaming of shedding the tag of world largest importer of weapons
How the hell both can be possible.

Whoever wins will sooner or later be manufacturing in India so don't wish it to be cancelled. Our ofb is shit and no other private company manufacturers a rifle of its own

 

[rkhanna]

Problem with our army is that we are in a constant state of war with the terrorists. And 5.56 is simply isn't adequate against the terrorists and neither is accurate at long distance with Insas.

hmmm I think you dont really understand ballistics.

I would suggest reading this

https://www.snipercountry.com/5-56-vs-7-62/

no such thing has 556 not being suitable for COIN. All our SOF units use primary 556 Systems for COIN and are transitioning out from the AK system.

The West has fought almost 2 decades of COIN with that same round across seriously diverse terrain.

 

[rkhanna]

Problem with our army is that we are in a constant state of war with the terrorists. And 5.56 is simply isn't adequate against the terrorists and neither is accurate at long distance with Insas.

hmmm I think you dont really understand ballistics.

I would suggest reading this

https://www.snipercountry.com/5-56-vs-7-62/

no such thing has 556 not being suitable for COIN. Given that the average engagement is between 50m - 150m the point is moot. All our SOF units use primary 556 Systems for COIN and are transitioning out from the AK system.

The West has fought almost 2 decades of COIN with that same round across seriously diverse terrain.

 

[mohitbhagat]

hmmm I think you dont really understand ballistics.

I would suggest reading this

https://www.snipercountry.com/5-56-vs-7-62/

no such thing has 556 not being suitable for COIN. Given that the average engagement is between 50m - 150m the point is moot. All our SOF units use primary 556 Systems for COIN and are transitioning out from the AK system.

The West has fought almost 2 decades of COIN with that same round across seriously diverse terrain.

And this 2 decades of COIN has made them realize that their weapons are not sufficient enough. This is why it is forcing them to look towards much better cartridges. US is seriously considering a change in caliber but have failed to find a caliber good enough or superior enough to do a complete caliber change of its forces. US forces uses a lot of 7.62 nato rifles and even 5.56 with longer barrels to increase their range.
Yes COIN operations in J&K are happens a lot within the range of 50-150m in urban environment but they also happens a lot in jungles and mountains. The kind of terrorists faced by Indian army is of more of fidayein type who comes across the border to die and get their 72 Virgins. It's their these kind of experience which has led the forces to want a caliber like a 7.62 nato and 7.62×39mm. 5.56 is a good caliber but lacks the stopping power. It's good against conventional forces but not someone who is hell bent to kill and be killed. So these 7.62 nato was mainly for the replacement of AK series rifles being used by the army. Also we are getting more than 4.5 lakhs of 5.56 nato carbines for cqb roles. So it makes sense to have 7.62 nato as a standard issue rifle along with 5.56 nato as carbines

 

[scatterStorm]

An 7.62 nato assault rifle and a 7.62 nato DMR is not a same thing. Unlike sig Sauer 716 g2 patrol version sig Sauer 716 g2 dmr uses a different stock, longer and heavier barrel, a much lighter trigger pull and only semi auto firing mode. Tavor is not known for its accuracy. It's inferior when compared to a AR15 or ar10 platform.
So don't jump the gun a assault rifle/battle rifle is a different thing and a DMR is a different thing. And we are buying a patrol version of sig Sauer 716 not the dmr version of it

I saw a very old future weapon show on discovery, the presenter said the Tavor is best suited for close urban quarter combat. Lack of accuracy isn't needed at fighting distance of 200 to 400 meters as they are pretty good in accuracy in those ranges. Anything beyond that is where it's isn't it's purpose.

 

[mohitbhagat]

I saw a very old future weapon show on discovery, the presenter said the Tavor is best suited for close urban quarter combat. Lack of accuracy isn't needed at fighting distance of 200 to 400 meters as they are pretty good in accuracy in those ranges. Anything beyond that is where it's isn't it's purpose.

Well when I said that tavor is not known for its accuracy... What I really mean is its accuracy is not as good as the AR15 platform. Tavor doesn't uses free floating barrel which makes its accuracy a little low than the AR15. Tavor is easily a 2MOA gun with high quality match ammo. And it's good enough for practical accuracy. It's effective range is around 550m.

 

[scatterStorm]

Well when I said that tavor is not known for its accuracy... What I really mean is its accuracy is not as good as the AR15 platform. Tavor doesn't uses free floating barrel which makes its accuracy a little low than the AR15. Tavor is easily a 2MOA gun with high quality match ammo. And it's good enough for practical accuracy. It's effective range is around 550m.

Read about the floating barrel, but personally I'd like to see an AK107 ... that thing with counter balancer kills the recoil so smoothly and is very good at area suppression, it's like an SLR but less heavy and very low recoil. To push to an enemy all you need is to create a wall of bullets (easier said then done though) ... an all those 72 virgin lickers will feel it's wrath, may even shit in there pants when those bullet wall will destroy the house or a tree wherever they are hiding there ass.

I'd hoped SIG 716 had a counter balancer.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Read about the floating barrel, but personally I'd like to see an AK107 ... that thing with counter balancer kills the recoil so smoothly and is very good at area suppression, it's like an SLR but less heavy and very low recoil. To push to an enemy all you need is to create a wall of bullets (easier said then done though) ... an all those 72 virgin lickers will feel it's wrath, may even shit in there pants when those bullet wall will destroy the house or a tree wherever they are hiding there ass.

I'd hoped SIG 716 had a counter balancer.

Ak107 is chambered in 5.45×39mm bullet. It's even lighter than the 5.56 nato. You simply can't compare the recoil of a small and light bullet with the recoil of larger and heavier bullet. Also nobody uses Ak107 literally. Russia is adopting Ak12 and Ak15 which are also very good rifles with very manageable recoil which helps it to stay on target enen while fully automatic firing mode.
And about sig 716 its recoil is very mild in comparison with SLR. And its very accurate as well. It uses a much larger bullet which means it will go through walls like knife through butter and also unlike SLR its fully automatic

 

[abingdonboy]

Is there any info on what optics they will have on the SIG and the AK? Will there be any optics as standard with the AK 103 acquisition?

The AK103s will be utterly bog standard, no P-rails, no optics, no pistol grips, no collapsible buttstocks, no flashlights etc etc

With the AK-103 the IA is commiting itself to be a third world nation Army for another 20-30 years.