Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[Suryavanshi]

Did Sig716 become an artillery?

we all have to grow up eventually mate.!

 

[GLD1980]

Friends,

So what will be the future of the 72,400 SIG 716I the MOD purchased for your Military? Especially with the cancellation of the 2nd 72,000 rifle contract? If OFB Ammo production, or Ministry of Defense Ammo procurement for the current inventory of 716I rifles continues to fail, will India just toss the 72,400 rifles to the trash? I am curious to the future of the Indian Military Rifle Program.

With the Indian Government Officials declaring the 716I contract a failure, placing blame on technical issues and problems with the rifle, I wonder what route the MOD will take now? The snub to the 716I is damaging to the reputation of SIG and the 716I platform. Blaming issues experienced with the rifle on faulty parts to avoid India MOD having to take responsibility for ordering and issuing incorrect or out of spec ammunition, which is still being used, and still causing the issue is a problem. Not that it matters to Indians what happens with SIG or what battle rifle you get but it should! Can OFB build a better replacement for you that will be better than the SIG 716I? Honestly why didn't you guys go with a 5.56 rifle? Just not the INSAS.... I've read that INSAS was no good.

 

[Marliii]

Friends,

So what will be the future of the 72,400 SIG 716I the MOD purchased for your Military? Especially with the cancellation of the 2nd 72,000 rifle contract? If OFB Ammo production, or Ministry of Defense Ammo procurement for the current inventory of 716I rifles continues to fail, will India just toss the 72,400 rifles to the trash? I am curious to the future of the Indian Military Rifle Program.

With the Indian Government Officials declaring the 716I contract a failure, placing blame on technical issues and problems with the rifle, I wonder what route the MOD will take now? The snub to the 716I is damaging to the reputation of SIG and the 716I platform. Blaming issues experienced with the rifle on faulty parts to avoid India MOD having to take responsibility for ordering and issuing incorrect or out of spec ammunition, which is still being used, and still causing the issue is a problem. Not that it matters to Indians what happens with SIG or what battle rifle you get but it should! Can OFB build a better replacement for you that will be better than the SIG 716I? Honestly why didn't you guys go with a 5.56 rifle? Just not the INSAS.... I've read that INSAS was no good.

I think the deal for the rest of 7.62x51 rifles is still there .rest of it was just a hit piece by wire niether the rifle nor the ammo had any problems .the wire is infamous for its hitjobs

 

[Johny_Baba]

Friends,

So what will be the future of the 72,400 SIG 716I the MOD purchased for your Military? Especially with the cancellation of the 2nd 72,000 rifle contract? If OFB Ammo production, or Ministry of Defense Ammo procurement for the current inventory of 716I rifles continues to fail, will India just toss the 72,400 rifles to the trash? I am curious to the future of the Indian Military Rifle Program.

With the Indian Government Officials declaring the 716I contract a failure, placing blame on technical issues and problems with the rifle, I wonder what route the MOD will take now? The snub to the 716I is damaging to the reputation of SIG and the 716I platform. Blaming issues experienced with the rifle on faulty parts to avoid India MOD having to take responsibility for ordering and issuing incorrect or out of spec ammunition, which is still being used, and still causing the issue is a problem. Not that it matters to Indians what happens with SIG or what battle rifle you get but it should! Can OFB build a better replacement for you that will be better than the SIG 716I? Honestly why didn't you guys go with a 5.56 rifle? Just not the INSAS.... I've read that INSAS was no good.

my best guess is,
SIG716is would keep serving to forward deployed troops deployed at borders touching Pakistan and China, rest ones would keep using INSAS and given AK-203 in future,

for 7.62 NATO rifles, maybe in future we would end up getting Galil ACE in 7.62 NATO which is already ;manufactured; here by Adani PLR or that INSAS derivative in 7.62 NATO, now named "Indian Assault Rifle" - both these are Kalashnikov derivatives in 7.62 NATO calibre

other local options are
> Tavor-7 from Adani PLR

> INDRA rifle in 7.62 NATO from Astr Firearms

> also, revealed in recent DefExpo, a 7.62 NATO derivative of 'ARDE Carbine'

upper one is in 7.62 NATO, bottom one is 5.56 NATO 'ARDE Carbine'
both are of course Kalashnikov derivatives themselves but in SIG550 like receiver build

 

[Lonewarrior]

So much to answer there mate, anyways let's see

So what will be the future of the 72,400 SIG 716I the MOD purchased for your Military?

If things continue the way they're now then we'll keep using them as a "longer ranged INSAS/AK" with iron sights or red dots.

But if in near future Indian Army gets some common sense then we might use them as a makeshift DMRs with high-end LPVOs and bipods.

Especially with the cancellation of the 2nd 72,000 rifle contract?

As of now nothing is confirmed about this; everything is in uncertainty. Even this news of cancellation is not verified.

If OFB Ammo production, or Ministry of Defense Ammo procurement for the current inventory of 716I rifles continues to fail, will India just toss the 72,400 rifles to the trash?

Most probably no.
You must understand that it's much more easier or economical to tweak the powder type or amount of current .308 ammo to suit 716i than to ditch 716i and procure rifles that suit current ammo.

Moreover we've already got Negevs, sooner or later we'll get 7.62x51mm DMRs to replace Dragunovs; so in coming years we are definitely going to improve the quality of .308 ammo.
Another interesting fact here is that OFB has already tasted blood with exporting 5.56x45mm ammo to US, so it'll take no time before they start making NATO standard ammo for export.

With the Indian Government Officials declaring the 716I contract a failure, placing blame on technical issues and problems with the rifle, I wonder what route the MOD will take now? The snub to the 716I is damaging to the reputation of SIG and the 716I platform. Blaming issues experienced with the rifle on faulty parts to avoid India MOD having to take responsibility for ordering and issuing incorrect or out of spec ammunition, which is still being used, and still causing the issue is a problem. Not that it matters to Indians what happens with SIG or what battle rifle you get but it should!

No, nothing will happen to SIGs reputation. Having bagged contract for M17/18 and then XM-5, their reputation is at all time high.

Moreover, internationally no one gives a f about what Indian MoD does. We have become a joke for everyone in arms procurement. Our arms procurement looks like Indian soap operas.

Can OFB build a better replacement for you that will be better than the SIG 716I?

Yes, definitely yes.
OFB can easily make a rifle in next 10 years that'll be better than the current 716i. But sadly at time SIG would be making something exponentially better.

Honestly why didn't you guys go with a 5.56 rifle?

Because we lack foresight. PERIOD

We saw everyone using 5.56x45mm, we started doing so.
We saw US complaining about 5.56x45mm in Gulf war and showing interest for 6.8mm, we started doing so.
We had to please the Russians so we selected AK-203, and together with it came 7.62x39mm.
See in almost all the cases there's a lack of foresight on what exactly do we need to counter China if there is a clash in near future.

Just not the INSAS.... I've read that INSAS was no good

Yes, INSAS was not good. But the subsequent "INSASs" like Mk-3 or AR or Kalantak are much better.

 

[GLD1980]

@Marliii
@Johny_Baba
@Lonewarrior

Thank you all for the replies.

You have all always contributed good information on the 716I. I think in a DMR role with a thermal sight or MPVO type scope, it would serve you very well along the LOC and I'm sure in other areas in varying roles. I have my 716I setup as a DMR/SPR type rifle. I recently took off my front vertical grip so it will rest better on bags, packs or supports while the bipod is not in use. The 716I has earned my respect has a workhorse! It is just a bit much to lug around for everything and requires some marksmanship training to really be effective.

I hope you do get the rest of your 716I's and quality ammo optimized for mission performance. Ideally a Long Range round, a Short Range round, an Armor Piercing/Barrier round, a Tracer round and a training ball type round, together would be an amazing ammunition assortment. In the future I also hope the MOD gets India a rifle more appropriate for CQB to 500m instead of a Battle Rifle. I'm sure you guys know what is best for India here. Good luck! We shall see how this all plays out.

 

[Love Charger]

@Marliii
@Johny_Baba
@Lonewarrior

Thank you all for the replies.

You have all always contributed good information on the 716I. I think in a DMR role with a thermal sight or MPVO type scope, it would serve you very well along the LOC and I'm sure in other areas in varying roles. I have my 716I setup as a DMR/SPR type rifle. I recently took off my front vertical grip so it will rest better on bags, packs or supports while the bipod is not in use. The 716I has earned my respect has a workhorse! It is just a bit much to lug around for everything and requires some marksmanship training to really be effective.
View attachment 187039
I hope you do get the rest of your 716I's and quality ammo optimized for mission performance. Ideally a Long Range round, a Short Range round, an Armor Piercing/Barrier round, a Tracer round and a training ball type round, together would be an amazing ammunition assortment. In the future I also hope the MOD gets India a rifle more appropriate for CQB to 500m instead of a Battle Rifle. I'm sure you guys know what is best for India here. Good luck! We shall see how this all plays out.

I have posted a private chat to you.
Do reply about that also.
The envelope on the left of bell icon indicats private convo
If its red with a number in top then it means folks have sent you messages

 

[Blood+]

Russia is now firing 4-5 times the rate and it has been going for 5-6 months.

More like 10 times if we take the whole front.

 

[Johny_Baba]

my best guess is,
SIG716is would keep serving to forward deployed troops deployed at borders touching Pakistan and China, rest ones would keep using INSAS and given AK-203 in future,

for 7.62 NATO rifles, maybe in future we would end up getting Galil ACE in 7.62 NATO which is already ;manufactured; here by Adani PLR or that INSAS derivative in 7.62 NATO, now named "Indian Assault Rifle" - both these are Kalashnikov derivatives in 7.62 NATO calibre
View attachment 187016
View attachment 187018

other local options are
> Tavor-7 from Adani PLR
View attachment 187020
> INDRA rifle in 7.62 NATO from Astr Firearms
View attachment 187021
View attachment 187022
> also, revealed in recent DefExpo, a 7.62 NATO derivative of 'ARDE Carbine'
View attachment 187023
upper one is in 7.62 NATO, bottom one is 5.56 NATO 'ARDE Carbine'
both are of course Kalashnikov derivatives themselves but in SIG550 like receiver build

oh i forgot to mention, we also have tonnes of those SLR rifles = Indian derivative of British L1A1 SLR and FN FAL (mostly based on British SLR but with some FAL design elements as well), currently serving as secondary service rifle in Indian Armed Forces, Indian Police Forces and so

This one was replaced by INSAS but still they could never replace it with anything else due to its ability to deliver shear firepower. Almost all cadets here even school ones in NCC start their cadet service with this rifle so every serviceman is familiar with this, and if nothing else is procured they can always go back to this old horse by pulling them out of storage.
I kinda argued about it in past in a post where people were criticising recoil of SIG716i

Someone has said it right that Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

A lot has been said about 7.62 NATO being heavy recoiling round, and when you marry it with a rifle design that's also infamous for being heavy-kicking and uncontrollable (specially on full auto) i.e. AR-10 what else you expect ?

Let's look at some cases from past,of then primary adopters of AR-10 and what they replaced it with,
Sudan - locally manufactured it,Sudanese variant, they replaced it with G-3 in same 7.62 NATO
Portugal - same as Sudan,had Portuguese variant,they replaced it with...guess what,G-3
The Netherlands - Now they manufactured it and adopted it in limited numbers but even before it could've become their standard issue rifle a lot of things happened (with both their army and the Portuguese ones) and they ended up adopting FN FAL, which they later replaced with canadian Diemaco C7/C8 series rifle-carbines etc

As for having a firearm that could effectively take down enemies at those ranges where 5.56 NATO isn't that effective, what was need of AR-10 pattern rifle when same job could've been done by our old workhorse 1A SLR, albeit with a little 'modernisation' ?
Just look at the Irish Army, they were equipped with FN FAL in past which they later replaced with Steyr AUG,
but when they realised they may need a hard-hitting weapon for ranges where AUG couldn't effectively work,they pulled out older FALs, modernised it and re-adopted it as battle rifle-DMR thing at squad level.View attachment 79376

We even had an alternative in name of OFB R-2 (now Ishapore Assault Rifle) that was INSAS Excalibur MK.1C in 7.62 NATO but then on range they made comments like "Recoil kaafi hain iska.." after firing it from hip
but are completely fine with SIG716i equipped jawans getting pushed back when it is fired

 

[GLD1980]

Looks like deal is really dead fellas... I hope your next rifle serves you well. What do you think it will be?

 

[Love Charger]

View attachment 188101
View attachment 188103
Looks like deal is really dead fellas... I hope your next rifle serves you well. What do you think it will be?

Next rifle ? Ak 203 production deferred for next year ?
Army may very well order new sigs , don't lose it yet .
Its not over till its really over sir

 

[ALBY]

Why army never opted for 5.45x39 in late 80s.if that was the decision we could have license made the Ak74s and the whole issue replacing it wouldnt might not have occured. More over 5.45s have better ballistics than 5.56

 

[Hari Sud]

Why army never opted for 5.45x39 in late 80s.if that was the decision we could have license made the Ak74s and the whole issue replacing it wouldnt might not have occured. More over 5.45s have better ballistics than 5.56

The Indian Army honchos in eighties were very impressed with American 5.45 NATO ammunition and latched on to the theory of injuring the adversary instead of killing him, they opted for it. Unluckily the OFB offered INSAS 5.45X45 rifle. The design was OK. They modified the design to fire a burst of three rounds which the soldier in the field did not like. On top of that, the quality made by outdated manufacturing processes at OFB was not good at all. All these issues combined and OFB inability to fix the quality issue ended INSAS era. Today the Ak203 will kill not injure and fire in burst that you can empty the the whole magazine.

The whole INSAS era was a judgemental errors of the Army and bad manufacturing by OFB.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Why army never opted for 5.45x39 in late 80s.

All these cartridges in 5-6mm range are what we call SCHV or Small Caliber High Velocity class of rounds. Long story short, everyone realised that full power rifle rounds are (i) harder to shoot in full auto (ii) difficult to carry in large numbers because of weight (iii) was unnecessarily powerful for the usual 300m engagement range and perhaps the most interesting aspect (iv) killed the target.
So the answer was a smaller round that addressed all shortcoming form (i - iii) and injured the target instead of killing it as injuring a single soldiers takes out three soldiers from combat.

So everyone transitioned to a smaller caliber. US transitioned from 7.62x51mm to 5.56x45mm, Russians from 7.62x39mm to 5.45x39mm, Chinese did the same to 5.8x42mm and Brits did from .280 to 4.85x49mm.

As during that period (1980-90) almost all of our inventory consisted of FALs and SMLEs chambered in 7.62x51mm, it was most obvious for us to transition to what other 7.62x51mm using countries were using.

More over 5.45s have better ballistics than 5.56

No; it's part Russian propaganda and part internet myth.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Today the Ak203 will kill not injure and fire in burst that you can empty the the whole magazine.

Which "will kill not injure" is sadly only useful in a very small theatre of operation called Jammu & Kashmir and that too against a very niche target called CI/CT.

In almost all other sectors both 7.62x39mm and AK-203 will suck badly due to excessive drop / lower penetration and outdated design respectively.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

Which "will kill not injure" is sadly only useful in a very small theatre of operation called Jammu & Kashmir and that too against a very niche target called CI/CT.

In almost all other sectors both 7.62x39mm and AK-203 will suck badly due to excessive drop / lower penetration and outdated design respectively.

I still can't understand the injury and kill part.
Is it really possible to determine if a person will die or not die after shooting, people evn die after being shot from .32 ammo, 5.56 ammo is capable enough to kill anyone

 

[Lonewarrior]

I still can't understand the injury and kill part.
Is it really possible to determine if a person will die or not die after shooting, people evn die after being shot from .32 ammo, 5.56 ammo is capable enough to kill anyone

That's the beauty of Indian defence circles.
Ever heard about this?

Spoiler: Horn Effect

> US Army adopted 5.56x45mm as injuring the enemy was more effective than killing him.
> US Army struggle to instantly kill opium-ed fighters in Gulf War with their 5.56x45mm.

And I don't know how just these two sentences cemented that 5.56x45mm is an inferior round and 7.62x39mm is the silver bullet that can kill someone even if you shoot them in limbs.

You said .32; heck even a nail gun can kill you if aimed at heart or head.

 

[Blademaster]

I don't buy this "maim your enemy, not kill" bullshit. Out on the battlefield, I want my enemy dead. Remember the war axiom, "Your job is to make sure that your enemy bastard die for his country"

 

[vishnugupt]

I don't buy this "maim your enemy, not kill" bullshit. Out on the battlefield, I want my enemy dead. Remember the war axiom, "Your job is to make sure that your enemy bastard die for his country"

I believe shoot to injury is good strategy for war. if you see videos coming from Ukraine, few injured soldiers effectively end assault and need more man to carry injured to safe ground. In process all become vulnerable for artillery fires.

shoot to kill is best strategy for insurgencies where opponent is fully committed to missions or suicidal missions.

But unfortunately in relentless pursuit for import, our UN generals killed INSAS by giving example of Insurgency in J&K.

As INSAS has killed now again same UN generals demanding 5.6*45 carbine.