Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[SilentlAssassin265]

Haan ji...



View attachment 188259

Spoiler

This is production related issue tough, nothing us wrong with new ak rifle family

 

[another_armchair]

This is production related issue tough, nothing us wrong with new ak rifle family

I thought the picture had both the problem and the solution.

 

[MisraZ]

We've discussed everything here except Sig716i. From 5.56 to artillery

 

[GLD1980]

Any weapon can be effective but not many shooters can shoot! Many join the Infantry but many get scared of doing Infantry shit! When I was young and joined the Army, I swore up and down AK was better, after 3 tours I quickly realized the gun played little into the equation of causing death. The most important factor was and will always be the shooter and the training. I feel I can be effective with AK, M4, or whatever's available. I will kill a mother fucker with a sling shot if that's all I got like David vs. Goliath. The weapon is merely a tool.

Now in regards to 5.56, the new rounds being used by the U.S. like the M855A1 Enhanced Penetrating Round (EPR) and the MK318 Special Operations Science & Technology (SOST) round will both fuck you up and will kill you very fast, so will MK262Mod1, M855 and M193 if utilized properly. Whether or not you use 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 still doesn't completely guarantee a kill without a well placed thoracic cavity or head shot and you all know this. Every Super Power makes it's own assortment of special bullets to defeat and destroy its enemies. India being a Nuclear Super Power, it's past time for you all to create and manufacture your own quality defensive product and ammunition and I mean that in the most respectful way. You never know when an Asshole like Biden may take office along with the other assholes in charge around the world and cut off trade or exports. Reliance on the US, UK, Russia, and China is not a viable option for the benifit of India or your own people and way of life moving forward.

Back to bullets... Yes, it's true x39 and x51 will recoil more than 5.56 or 5.45 so rapid firing and accuracy are harder to achieve at the same time with larger caliber guns and less ammunition is usually carried but honestly, in the Infantry they serve different purposes. Rapid Fire or Cyclic fire primarily serves to achieve fire superiority during an attack or during an ambush or reaction to being ambushed to shoot at multiple targets quickly, often resorting in disabling the enemy before you assault through the OBJ to make well placed shots to finish them. Typically our Snipers or Designated Marksman using .50BMG, 300NM, 7.62x51 or 5.56x45 with specialized ammo or similar take and make well placed shots whereas Infantry squads defend or attack while being shot back at and must make whatever shot we can to kill or incapacitate our enemy to deny our enemy the ability to fight or manuever. Whether my enemy dies or not is not my problem if we don't directly cross paths so long as he lost the fight! Although YES, I would like him dead and gone so he doesn't kill me or my buddies or my allies another day! Honestly, so long has my enemies ability to accomplish his mission is stopped and I accomplish my mission, I did my job! At the end of the day we are Soldiers, not Murderers and though it's a thin line of separation between both, just do your job to the best of your ability and the rest usually works itself out! Now if lines are broken and the enemy is in your camp or country all rules are gone and survival is all that matters! I would imagine if I was in Charge of Men along the LOC, this is how I would advise my men...
"If the Mountain or the Enemy doesn't kill you, I will fucking kill you if you don't do your fucking JOB all the time... Because failure to do your job will get your fellow Juwans killed and you will die before I allow you to get any of my men killed!" GLD1980 RLTW!

Does the MoD supply you all with Optics that can allow you to make precision type shots to take out enemies at distance?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Does the MoD supply you all with Optics that can allow you to make precision type shots to take out enemies at distance?

They do but it's not universally available, nor are ;standard issue;-ish,
as far as i know there are two prime govt. manufacturers of these scopes,
>Hindustan Optics
>BEL (Bharat Electronics Ltd)
they supply their stuff to various Ordnance Factory Boards, now Advanced Weapons and Equipment India Limited
rest there are also other imported optical sights-scopes as well as some made by private vendors here like MKU

various threads here like Special Forces one, Small Arms one, INSAS one etc happen to have lots of photos of these said stuff, do refer to them for more details.

 

[WolfPack86]

To clarify, a new 7.62x51 assault rifle coming into service

 

[Kuldeepm952]

To clarify, a new 7.62x51 assault rifle coming into service

Wait what? This Rifle saga is getting crazier again. I thought we have moved to AK as the basic rifle as some 7lakhs are ordered.

 

[ALBY]

Choosing 7.62x39 makes more sense than bulky and more recoilling 7.62x51 ones

 

[Love Charger]

Choosing 7.62x39 makes more sense than bulky and more recoilling 7.62x51 ones

Sir aap ne to dono chalya hoga, aap kisko personally prefer karte hain?

 

[ALBY]

Sir aap ne to dono chalya hoga, aap kisko personally prefer karte hain?

AK any day over any 7.62 Nato due to less weight to carry plus less recoil and option to do suppressive fire more effectively.Though a hardcore Ak fan,i believe maintaining 5.56 ammo as the choice for mainstay weapon was the right one instead of going for any kinda 7.62.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

AK any day over any 7.62 Nato due to less weight to carry plus less recoil and option to do suppressive fire more effectively.Though a hardcore Ak fan,i believe maintaining 5.56 ammo as the choice for mainstay weapon was the right one instead of going for any kinda 7.62.

5.56 against modern body armour is useless.Also weak in long range mountain firefights.

 

[Chinmoy]

Wait what? This Rifle saga is getting crazier again. I thought we have moved to AK as the basic rifle as some 7lakhs are ordered.

Indian twiterrati be like,
Waking up in morning, I've to write something. After writing seeing others debate on it, there attitude be like,

On a serious note, the AK deal was not just for IA. It was to replace all the INSAS and AK variant we are using now, which includes Paramilitary, CAPFs along with state police.

 

[WolfPack86]

Which Are The Best Indian Alternatives Of SIG716i Assault Rifles?
A Rifle is considered a soldier’s real partner in the Indian Army.

just like a wife

And a defective and incapable partner can leave you alone at any time in a war that can even kill you. And to give a powerful and right partner to its Brave Soldiers, the Indian Army has canceled the second batch of Sig Sauer 716i assault rifles.

In December 2019, the Sig Sauer 716 assault rifle was introduced to the Indian Army for the first time by inducting the first batch of 10,000 rifles into the Northern Command.

Recently The Wire published a report, In which it was told by the defence sources that the Indian Army has canceled the order of the 2nd batch of Sig 716i rifles due to some technical issues and now they are looking for indigenous alternatives but after a few days The Print published a report in which they denied the Sig Sauer repeated order cancelation report Instead they said MOD is in the final stage to approve repeated orders for Sig Sauer Rifles.

What Is Sig 716i?
The Sig 716i is a family member of US-made Short-stroke piston, rotating bolt, and semi-automatic rifles designed and produced by Sig Sauer. But the 716i (impingement) variant features a direct impingement gas system instead of a short-stroke pushrod gas system.

It is the third and newest of the 3 upgraded versions of the SIG Sauer SIG516 rifle.

Specifications:-

Mass	8.5 lb (3.85 kg)
Length	37 in [940 mm]
Barrel Length	16 in [406 mm]
Cartridge	7.62×51mm NATO
Action	direct impingement gas system
Effective Firing Range	500 meters
Feed System	10, 20, 30-round detachable magazine
Sights	Iron sights or Picatinny rail for various optics

Why did the Indian Army Buy New Rifles Like Sig 716i & AK-203?
These are the 3 major reasons to buy new rifles but the replacement of older rifles is the primary reason.

1. Replacement of Old Rifles
For almost the last 20 years, the standard rifles of the Indian Army have not been upgraded, most of the weapons of the Indian Army are from the 2nd World War. And the army of our neighboring enemy countries is equipped with new and modern rifles.

Today, the Indian Army is using INSAS and AKM family rifles as standard rifles, which have many technical shortcomings, and sometimes prove to be fatal for our soldiers.

Within a year after its induction, INSAS got the opportunity to prove its worth. It was the Kargil War of 1999. During the 1999 Kargil War, rifles were used in the high altitudes of the Himalayas. But this rifle did not meet the expectations. There were complaints of jamming, the magazine cracking due to the cold, and the rifle going into an automatic mode (luckily) when it was set for three-round bursts. There was also a problem with oil being sprayed into the eye of the operator. Some injuries during firing practice were also reported. In 2001, the 1B1 variant was introduced to solve problems regarding the rifle’s reliability back in the Kargil War, but it opened up other problems such as broken magazines.

2. Extra Powerful and Modern
According to some soldiers, one bullet from INSAS was not enough to kill its target. A confirmed kill often requires multiple hits. This might be because of the small 5.56 mm caliber.

And the rifles that the Indian Army is now inducting, including the AK-203 with the Sig 716, will be chambered with 7.62mm caliber rounds with an effective firing range of 100 to 400 meters more than the older rifles.

Which will be lighter in weight up to 300 gm and can be mounted with various types of high precision and modern telescopes and sights also.

3. Rough Conditions
The best thing about AK-series rifles is they never get jammed. They can work under any extreme climatic conditions smoothly and are effective on land, soil, and sand.

Why Did The Indian Army Cancel The Sig 716i Rifles 2nd Batch?
Major Reason Is a Technical Issue
According to the report of The Wire, the claim of cancellation of the additional batch of Sig 716 rifles. Any type of information has not been received so far from the Indian Army or the Ministry of Defence.

In this report, Snags in the gun are said to be the reason, and cracks in the barrel have also been reported when Indians made bullet rounds fired from this gun.

The rest of this report also mentions the issue of lack of sight, but it should not be considered as this rifle comes with Picatinny rail so that any sight can be easily equipped on it.

But these all issues come when the Indian-made 7.62mm bullets are fired from the Sig 716i rifle, otherwise, with the US-made cartridge, it’s working very well.

The Indian army didn’t buy more US-made cartridges because of these high costs. But the quality of Indian-made rounds is very low because when you fire, it releases more powder (residue). And the Sig 716i comes with a direct impingement gas system and any type of gas piston not used in this.

So propellant quality is a very important factor in these types of rifles.

When there is more residue in direct impingement type rifles then the gas tube is blocked and the rifle gets jammed. And you fire after the jamming, more secondary issues also come like barrel Balz or barrel crack.

The issue of high recoil has also been raised in this report but this rifle comes with a 7.62 mm round which is much more powerful than the 5.56 mm used earlier by the Indian Army.

Indigenous Promotion
The Indian army and Government of India also promote the Indigenous weapons so this also adds some inspiration to this cancellation decision.

Best Indigenous Alternatives Of Sig 716i Rifle
There are 2 types of options/alternatives –

1. Made Under Licensed in India
2. Pure Made in India

1. Made Under Licensed in India
There are many reliable and tested options in India that are produced by Indian companies.

1. AK-203 Rifle
Simply increase the numbers

Yes, the Indian Army has already placed an order of 6,70,000 AK-203 assault rifles to the Russian company Kalashnikov Concern, out of which 70,000 rifles have been delivered to the Indian Army by January 25, 2022.

The remaining 600,000 rifles are to be manufactured by Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited (IRRPL) in Amethi, Uttar Pradesh under the Technology Transfer Agreement.

Specifications:-

Mass	3.8 kg (8.4 lb)
Length	940 mm (37 in) stock extended
Barrel Length	415 mm (16.3 in)
Cartridge	7.62×39mm NATO
Action	Gas-operated, rotating bolt
Effective Firing Range	400–800 m (440–870 yd)
Feed System	30-round detachable box magazine
Sights	Adjustable iron sights or picatinny rails for various optics

This too is being inducted to replace INSAS and Ak-47 rifles like Sig 716i rifles induction.

But the Indian army can’t increase numbers because it is not battle-proven. And AK-203 is 30% cheaper than Sig 716i rifles.

AK-203 comes with the same capacity, power, and specifications as the Sig 716i but it is chambered with 7.62 x 39mm round and the Sig 716i comes with 7.62 x 51mm.

2. Tavor Tar-21 Rifle
This is powered by Indian Para Special forces

Tavor Tar 21 is the standard issue rifle of Indian Special forces. Tar 21 is an Israeli rifle manufactured by IWI. Indian Special forces use TAR 21, CTAR 21, STAR 21, and X95 variants.

It is much better in terms of mass, effective firing range, and other specifications than Sig 716i but it is chambered with a 5.56×45mm NATO round and Sig 716i comes with 7.62 x 51mm. So the recoil is less than Sig 716i.

Today these rifles are being used by the Ukrainian Armed Forces to wreak havoc against Russia in the Ukraine-Russia war.

Now, The Punj Lloyd Raksha Systems makes these snipers for Indian Armed Forces under license. So we can purchase these at ₹55,000 which is 65% cheaper than Sig 716i rifles.

For more specifications of Tar – 21:- Service rifles used by Indian army

3. ACE assault rifles
Like the Tavor Tar-21 Rifle, the IWI ACE is also helping Ukraine to stop the invasion of Ukraine by Russia today.

PLR Systems Ltd (PLR), a joint venture between Adani Group and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) manufactures ACE rifles in India under the license.

Specifications of ACE 52 and 53 rifles
The ACE 52 and ACE 53 are comparable to the Sig 716i rifle. The ACE 52 is also 200 gm lighter than the Sig 716i. These rifles were originally designed and developed by Israel Weapon Industries (IWI).

2. Pure Made in India
There are some options in India that are designed and produced locally by Indian companies.

1. P-72 rifle
This is Pure DESI (indigenous) power

The P-72 is a developing assault rifle being designed and developed by SSS Defence.

SSS defense has also developed the P-72 family of rifles, with a design ideology equal to the ACR, FN Scar, and Czech CZ Bren 2 Family.

Initially, the P-72 rifle came in 3 basic configurations that were P-72 Rapid Engagement Combat Rifle (RECR), P-72 Recon Carbine, and P-72 Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR).

The P-72 Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) and P-72 Rapid Engagement Combat Rifle give the competition to the Sig Sauer 716i rifle. P-72 (DMR) comes in both 7.62×51mm and 7.62×39mm rounds providing a range of around 800 meters.

Which Are The Best Indian Alternatives Of SIG716i Assault Rifles?

According to a report the Indian army cancel the 2nd lot of Sig Sauer 716i rifles that include 72,000 rifles so which is the best alternative

www.defencexp.com

.

 

[WolfPack86]

IWI Galil ACE 7.62x51 (.308) Overview and Brief History

 

[Hari Sud]

With a huge fanfare a large order of Sig rifle was placed four years back with an option to place a second order of similar number 75,000 or so.

It would appear that the second option has lapsed and no more second order will be forthcoming. A few reasons have been assigned for this cancellation. In this bunch of reasons one reason is bureaucratic bungling. That is always a possibility but better reason which would appear more reasonable is the failure of Indian manufactured ammunition to fire properly. Some barrel failures were reported. For good reason, Indian Army could not import rifle ammunition continuously from US.

Will the more smart people in the forum tell us that an opportunity to get a good Sig rifle for specialized units of the infantry has been lost or we just got out of a INSAS type of problems in an imported life?

What is the truth without getting into too many technicalities?

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

With a huge fanfare a large order of Sig rifle was placed four years back with an option to place a second order of similar number 75,000 or so.

It would appear that the second option has lapsed and no more second order will be forthcoming. A few reasons have been assigned for this cancellation. In this bunch of reasons one reason is bureaucratic bungling. That is always a possibility but better reason which would appear more reasonable is the failure of Indian manufactured ammunition to fire properly. Some barrel failures were reported. For good reason, Indian Army could not import rifle ammunition continuously from US.

Will the more smart people in the forum tell us that an opportunity to get a good Sig rifle for specialized units of the infantry has been lost or we just got out of a INSAS type of problems in an imported life?

What is the truth without getting into too many technicalities?

What They Checking During Trails

 

[Lonewarrior]

With a huge fanfare a large order of Sig rifle was placed four years back with an option to place a second order of similar number 75,000 or so.

It would appear that the second option has lapsed and no more second order will be forthcoming. A few reasons have been assigned for this cancellation. In this bunch of reasons one reason is bureaucratic bungling. That is always a possibility but better reason which would appear more reasonable is the failure of Indian manufactured ammunition to fire properly. Some barrel failures were reported. For good reason, Indian Army could not import rifle ammunition continuously from US.

Will the more smart people in the forum tell us that an opportunity to get a good Sig rifle for specialized units of the infantry has been lost or we just got out of a INSAS type of problems in an imported life?

What is the truth without getting into too many technicalities?

- Trained units are very happy with SIGs.
- Untrained units are complaining about recoil.
- OFB made ammunitions were causing some issues but currently OFB too makes NATO spces ammo.
- All procurement people from army's side want SIGs.
- All procurement people from government's side are kind of unresponsive about SIGs.
- "Some" people are trying to push AK-203 in place of SIGs.

That's all what's happening regarding SIGs.

 

[Johny_Baba]

- Trained units are very happy with SIGs.
- All procurement people from army's side want SIGs.
- All procurement people from government's side are kind of unresponsive about SIGs

what's your source regd all these claims ?
here is how actual soldier, one of very respected member here as well , was describing it

this was in Aug, 2021

and after 9 some months when asked again his reply was...

 

[Lonewarrior]

what's your source regd all these claims ?
here is how actual soldier, one of very respected member here as well , was describing it
View attachment 198072
View attachment 198073
View attachment 198074
View attachment 198075
this was in Aug, 2021

and after 9 some months when asked again his reply was...View attachment 198076

You have to grip a cold metal...and how's that related with weapon?

Gloves do na becharo ko

 

[Johny_Baba]

You have to grip a cold metal...and how's that related with weapon?

Gloves do na becharo ko

how is that not related to weapons? SIG SAUER in their cost cutting spree didn't provide rail covers and now they have to cover it with spare camo clothing when in cold or getting gloves which we know often goes with soldiers' pocketmonies instead of being issued as standard...if OFB had done something like this there would be countless rants and jibes over it but apparently SIG SAUER is given benefit of doubt now ?
i mean you look at some of the available options back then
->Galil ACE, has rail covers and handguards are polymer
->Tavor-7, has rail covers and handguards are polymer
->SIG750, has separately mounted rail sections but handguards are polymer
->OFB R-2 now "Ishapore Assault Rifle , has separately mounted rail sections but handguards are polymer
->Colt CM901, well even worse than SIG716I like it's got quad rails and no handguard rail covers
and please don't try to blame it on armed forces and procurement guys this time at least, we all know how SIG716I popped up out of nowhere and *cleared trials and got inducted en masse* in a very short span of time post muh pulwama and muh balakot strikezz while before this we were going through perpetual trials with all then available options; it's without doubt that this was a politically motivated and 'majburi' driven deal

besides he also mentioned recoil part (*can be manageable* with extensive training but still bad) and stoppages (which has its own blame game on OFB ammo now); and he mentioned it both times so i guess in span of that 9 months very little things changed regd entire drama

so again, you mentioned and i quoted

- Trained units are very happy with SIGs.
- All procurement people from army's side want SIGs.
- All procurement people from government's side are kind of unresponsive about SIGs

> first thing from above doesn't sem to be the case as he replied
> regd second and third from above,likewise he said army planners realising it's not going ahead as intended so where's that "want" for SIGs here

i normally don't try to drag serving people in arguments or try to blow their cover but fuck it let's just hear it straight from the horse's mouth
@hammer head
praa you there ? pls come back and say something on the subject