Indian Army: News and Discussion

[bose]

Spike is generation ahead of Nag and its derivatives. World is moving towards 5th gen ATGMs yet drdo can't even deploy a 3rd generation one.Even worse is we haven't even seen a test of Man Portable Nag from its CLU.

India Army needs 60,000 - 80,000 ATGMs ... How many fourth generation Spike IA can afford ? There is no alternative to Nag & Man portable Nag ...

 

[doreamon]

I prefer any domestic shit to gora imported ones unlike u

I prefer neither domestic shit neither gora shit ...

 

[Ajax01]

Spike is generation ahead of Nag and its derivatives. World is moving towards 5th gen ATGMs yet drdo can't even deploy a 3rd generation one.Even worse is we haven't even seen a test of Man Portable Nag from its CLU.

Really ? What advantage does spike have vis a vis nag ?
The product is in user trials for as long as I can remember. How many trials did Spike have to take even though it failed?
MMP is a so called 5th gen system and more of a marketing ploy; no radical change at all.
When was MPATGM sanctioned? And how much did the Army and Spike lobby try to stop it by using emergency purchases to stop it?

 

[utubekhiladi]

Nor there was any effort spent for better quality assurance and project management ...

that single line is bottom cause of all our defense indigenisation problems.

 

[another_armchair]

Tejas(until parrikar saved it)
Arjun(for shitty t90s)
Nag/mpatgm(spikes are gradually acquired)
Atags(athos)
M777(kalyani Marg)
Mciws(ak203)
Htt40(until pilatus was banned)
Helina(maybe hellfire in the future)
Btw mpatgm version of nag is available but we need both of them

Tejas - Hearsay only

Arjun - Agree, step motherly treatment was meted out to the Arjun but question remains - Forget MK2, even if one is to consider deploying Arjun MK-1, where will you deploy them?

Nag+Namica - Pretty useless together.

MPATGM - A private company is involved. Probably another hush hush ToT through some other route. Nowhere near induction.

ATAGS - The weight difference between ATAGS and ATHOS is nearly 6 tons. The length of the ATAGS is also a big downer. How much extra fuel would Army have to burn for hauling additional 6+ tons? The ATHOS emerged as L1(agreed there's a downside to being L1) in comparative trials and is considerably cheaper than ATAGS if figures floating around are to be believed. Will Tata, Kalyani and DRDO bear the increase in logistics costs for the Army? Will they lobby with FinMin to factor in the budget? Only supporting argument in favor of ATAGS is its range.

M-777 - It was on the cards for over a decade. Too bad they took so long.

HTT-40 - That is a genuine grouse.

Helina - It will be inducted. Issue is with the launcher and is being sorted out.

 

[Ajax01]

There are some people who don't like the min range of NAG (500 m) while the Chinese have a system with min range of 3 km.

 

[bose]

that single line is bottom cause of all our defense indigenisation problems.

It was estimated somewhere near 80,000 Cr rupees required for modernization of all the OFBs and their production units ... They is also urgent requirement for manpower training and up skilling ...

 

[Suryavanshi]

It was estimated somewhere near 80,000 Cr rupees required for modernization of all the OFBs and their production units

Thats 15 billion dollars mate.

 

[another_armchair]

How can one even compare a carrier based NAG ATGM which weighs a minimum of 43 kgs(~9kg warhead) to Spike LR where the Spike LR(weight missile round weighs ~15 kg and the supporting equipment weigh less than the Nag -

• Missile round: 14 kg (30 lb 14 oz)
• Command & launch unit (CLU): 5 kg (11 lb 0 oz)
• Tripod: 2.8 kg (6 lb 3 oz)
• Battery: 1 kg (2 lb 3 oz)
• Thermal sight: 4 kg (8 lb 13 oz)

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(missile)

Move the Namica to Pangong Tso and take out those Chinese speed boats anchored there.

Talk about raising strawmans.

 

[ARVION]

Thats 15 billion dollars mate.

Yes ofb is never ending Valley's.

 

[bose]

Thats 15 billion dollars mate.

There are 41 Ordinance Factories all over India and most of them are not modernized for decades ...

 

[ARVION]

There are 41 Ordinance Factories all over India and most of them are not modernized for decades ...

And never would be.

 

[bose]

And never would be.

They will eventually be sold out to corporates as spending that much of money is also not coming from GOI...

 

[Ajax01]

SPIKE LR is the only system that meets all of the armed forces' core requirements:

• Range 4,000 meters
• System weight <45 kg (in the infantry version)
• Can be used from hidden positions and enclosed spaces, so that the shooter or the combat vehicle enjoys maximum protection;
• Possibility of mission termination
• Possibility of changing targets during the flight using fiber optic cables
  ("Fire & Observe mode")
• Ability to fight armored targets from above ("Top Attack")

From rheinmetall on Spike

 

[Suryavanshi]

There are 41 Ordinance Factories all over India and most of them are not modernized for decades ...

OFB issue isn't Money, it's their ethics.

They inherited state of the art factories from British, they had no competition, they had no lack of funds or orders.

It's their ethics that is the problem.

Even if u spend 100 billion the factories would lose a race to Worlds MIC in a matter of decade.

Govemenet needs to corporatise and privatise them eventually. Sell a few factories to L&T tgey will do wonders with it.

The factories that are decent like Jabalpur and Tirchy should be corporatised like HAL.

There are enough private comapnies to manufacture everything that the army needs no need to entertain the OFB clowns.

 

[arkos]

Really ? What advantage does spike have vis a vis nag ?

Its a generation ahead of Nag and is actually in production and active use. That alones gives it an edge.

MMP is a so called 5th gen system and more of a marketing ploy; no radical change at all.

ATGM's generation are not just dependent on the missile but also on the CLU which MP NAG does not even have yet.

When was MPATGM sanctioned? And how much did the Army and Spike lobby try to stop it by using emergency purchases to stop it?

DRDO was the one that stopped the purchase of Spike guaranteeing that they will develop a more advanced ATGM in 2 years, in which they obviously failed like they always do. Only after DRDO's failure was the Army allowed to procure Spikes under emergency procurement. MP Nag is nowhere, its CLU is nowhere, its mass production was to be started in 2021 is won't happen.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Also let these OFBs arrange Internship for students.
Another thing that plagues the Indian scientific infrastructure is the lack of Intelligencen skill and experience transfer.

 

[bose]

OFB issue isn't Money, it's their ethics.

They inherited state of the art factories from British, they had no competition, they had no lack of funds or orders.

It's their ethics that is the problem.

Even if u spend 100 billion the factories would lose a race to Worlds MIC in a matter of decade.

Govemenet needs to corporatise and privatise them eventually. Sell a few factories to L&T tgey will do wonders with it.

The factories that are decent like Jabalpur and Tirchy should be corporatised like HAL.

There are enough private comapnies to manufacture everything that the army needs no need to entertain the OFB clowns.

Very True !!

Most of the OFB factories have turned into junk factories with last 30 years of neglect ... They can not produce high quality of weapons and ammunition for 21st century ... There is a need of massive amount of capital investment to rebuild them ... GOI has very little capital left after salary + pension + hardware procurement ...

So corporatization is the only way out ... That is what GOI line of action ....

My point is we need Made in India weapons it does not matter if it come from Tata / Mahendra / Kalyani or Govt OFBs units...

 

[Flying Dagger]

These procurement are on emergency basis and for the purpose to overcome the immediate shortfall...

The future is always home made weapons and ammunition ... These very OFBs production units have successfully supported the World War - II efforts then why there was no quality issues ? Think about it ...

Beating and blaming the OFBs and DRDOs is very unfair as they do their work with minuscule funding and manpower ...

These OFBs tooling facilities were neglected and had not been upgraded for 20 to 30 years ... we can not expect high quality products with out dated machines and production tools ... Nor there was any effort spent for better quality assurance and project management ...

Every nations be it USA, France or UK have faced the same quality and delivery issues [ American Abram tank has also had many issues initially ... The Americans did not discarded it unlike IA ... they persisted with it and over time they improved upon it ]...

DRDO is learning and improving and it has delivered to the nation ... Better days ahead ...

Britishers wouldn't let them go off easily and made sure it with a stick something we can't do in a government run one.

 

[Flying Dagger]

HTT 40 and other trainer projects of HAL have been utter failure for decades. It was a genuine case where IAF had no choice with their IJT and Basic trainer requirements being pending and pilots were going through hush hush training and accidents.

Pilatus and Hawk saved the IAF training facility else they would have been flying birds instead in wait for HTT 36/40 in 2020s

Tejas - Hearsay only

Arjun - Agree, step motherly treatment was meted out to the Arjun but question remains - Forget MK2, even if one is to consider deploying Arjun MK-1, where will you deploy them?

Nag+Namica - Pretty useless together.

MPATGM - A private company is involved. Probably another hush hush ToT through some other route. Nowhere near induction.

ATAGS - The weight difference between ATAGS and ATHOS is nearly 6 tons. The length of the ATAGS is also a big downer. How much extra fuel would Army have to burn for hauling additional 6+ tons? The ATHOS emerged as L1(agreed there's a downside to being L1) in comparative trials and is considerably cheaper than ATAGS if figures floating around are to be believed. Will Tata, Kalyani and DRDO bear the increase in logistics costs for the Army? Will they lobby with FinMin to factor in the budget? Only supporting argument in favor of ATAGS is its range.

M-777 - It was on the cards for over a decade. Too bad they took so long.

HTT-40 - That is a genuine grouse.

Helina - It will be inducted. Issue is with the launcher and is being sorted out.