Indian Army: News and Discussion

[Mangal]

Indian Army is considering to allow common citizens to join the 1.3- million-strong force for a three-year tenure to serve the nation, sources said. "A proposal is being discussed under which common citizens would be allowed a three year Tour of Duty in the force to serve the nation," Indian Army sources told ANI.

 

[WARREN SS]

Indian Army Modern Equipment on LOC

 

[Bhadra]

You left out the Maratha Light Infantry, headquartered in Belgaum, Karnataka which also draws some of its men from North Karnataka.

There is little point to suggest that S.Indians dont get equal opportunities, the factvremaibs that thet have many different opportunities which may be the cause for reduced interest on joining the forces. Karnataka has quiet a few joining up but most of the are from N.Karnataka and few from the more prosperous south including Coorg which was a big recruiting ground earlier.

This is how it is the world over and India is no different. Actually, this is even true of the civil services where states like Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu dont send many IAS officers for central deputation as compared to the NE, UP and Bihar. Officers simply have no great incentive leaving these states even though these state cadres are drawn from all over the country.

That is because a sizeable size of Marathi speaking Marathas live in those parts of India. It is not only MARATHA LI but MAHAR Regiment who also draw their Marathi SC soldiers from those areas.

IAS and other class A central Services are a different ballgame. It is the "more money" factor that makes the deputation hot. Why should a "more money" making man from Maharastra go to Delhi for the loss? That is also the reason why Economic ministries are hotter in Delhi even for noneconomic experts of IAS.

Many such comments about the Armed Forces emanate out of sheer ignorance and sometimes they are motivated like Sachar Commission trying to meddle with Armed Forces to force Muslims into it. Sachar perhaps did not know that even Pakistanis do not take large numbers of Bihari and UP Bhaiya type of Muhajirs as soldiers into their army because most of them are physically and mentally unfit to be soldiers.

The ghost of Mangal Pandey still haunts all...

 

[JBH22]

That is because a sizeable size of Marathi speaking Marathas live in those parts of India. It is not only MARATHA LI but MAHAR Regiment who also draw their Marathi SC soldiers from those areas.

IAS and other class A central Services are a different ballgame. It is the "more money" factor that makes the deputation hot. Why should a "more money" making man from Maharastra go to Delhi for the loss? That is also the reason why Economic ministries are hotter in Delhi even for noneconomic experts of IAS.

Many such comments about the Armed Forces emanate out of sheer ignorance and sometimes they are motivated like Sachar Commission trying to meddle with Armed Forces to force Muslims into it. Sachar perhaps did not know that even Pakistanis do not take large numbers of Bihari and UP Bhaiya type of Muhajirs as soldiers into their army because most of them are physically and mentally unfit to be soldiers.

The ghost of Mangal Pandey still haunts all...

Can you elaborate on the mangal pandey line pls.
Also does that means soldiers from UP and Bihar have shown lower combat performance?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

UP-Bihar its well known problems notwithstanding ,actually provides very tough men.PVCs Manoj pandey and yogender singh yadav being recent examples.Abdul hamid of khemkaran fame was also a 'bhaiyya'.Purbiya rajputs,yadavs,kurmis,mauryas and bhumihars provide solid military manpower from traditional communities,even leaving aside new entrants from general population.
People forget the armies of magadha that conquered india twice(mauryas and guptas) came from these areas.Also the Bengal army of the east india company had its recruiting base in awadh and bihar mostly.This army conquered the maratha,sikh and mysore states.It was only after 1857 when awadh became the centre of the mutiny and the bengal army revolted enmasse that the british stopped recruitment from these areas.

 

[Mangal]

That is because a sizeable size of Marathi speaking Marathas live in those parts of India. It is not only MARATHA LI but MAHAR Regiment who also draw their Marathi SC soldiers from those areas.

IAS and other class A central Services are a different ballgame. It is the "more money" factor that makes the deputation hot. Why should a "more money" making man from Maharastra go to Delhi for the loss? That is also the reason why Economic ministries are hotter in Delhi even for noneconomic experts of IAS.

Many such comments about the Armed Forces emanate out of sheer ignorance and sometimes they are motivated like Sachar Commission trying to meddle with Armed Forces to force Muslims into it. Sachar perhaps did not know that even Pakistanis do not take large numbers of Bihari and UP Bhaiya type of Muhajirs as soldiers into their army because most of them are physically and mentally unfit to be soldiers.

The ghost of Mangal Pandey still haunts all...

The reason why British banished upper caste hindus and "bhiayas" was because they feared that they may revolt again and wont take it lying down. I don't want to get into dick measuring here state wise. Senior member like you should avoid calling racist names like "bhaiya" on this forum if you have any degree of sense. Mods please take note of this comment by Mr. Bhadra sir.

 

[Bhadra]

Can you elaborate on the mangal pandey line pls.
Also does that means soldiers from UP and Bihar have shown lower combat performance?

I knew it would touch sensitivities.
Bihar and UP do contribute one of the largest numbers of troops because of their population size and has many glorious Regiments to their credit. BIHAR REGT, RAJPUT REGT, GRENADIERS, JAT, KUMAON REGT (for Ahirs), Artillary, Armoured, Engineers and Services.. all. Formerly all Regts of Bengal Presidency. That makes a sizable force. Except for JAT Regt, all others are mixed assorted class composition units. IA gets well educated lots from these two states and they can be largely found in technical arms such as Medical Corps.

The soldiers of UP and Bihar have not shown any lesser combat performances but higher indiscipline tendencies which is intrinsic to their population characteristics.

 

[Bhadra]

UP-Bihar its well known problems notwithstanding ,actually provides very tough men.PVCs Manoj pandey and yogender singh yadav being recent examples.Abdul hamid of khemkaran fame was also a 'bhaiyya'.Purbiya rajputs,yadavs,kurmis,mauryas and bhumihars provide solid military manpower from traditional communities,even leaving aside new entrants from general population.
People forget the armies of magadha that conquered india twice(mauryas and guptas) came from these areas.Also the Bengal army of the east india company had its recruiting base in awadh and bihar mostly.This army conquered the maratha,sikh and mysore states.It was only after 1857 when awadh became the centre of the mutiny and the bengal army revolted enmasse that the british stopped recruitment from these areas.

You have explained my point of view in essence that the population characteristics of these areas are more volatile.

 

[Bhadra]

The reason why British banished upper caste hindus and "bhiayas" was because they feared that they may revolt again and wont take it lying down. I don't want to get into dick measuring here state wise. Senior member like you should avoid calling racist names like "bhaiya" on this forum if you have any degree of sense. Mods please take note of this comment by Mr. Bhadra sir.

My apologies if I hurt your sensibilities. I used the term "Bhaiya" in the context of Muhajirs of Pakistan and not IA. Specifically about weak Muslims of UP and Bihar who indeed are physically and educationally weaker. Make hundreds of them stand in the line and 99 fail in 5 km run. How does one recruit them.

How do you know I am not a "Bhaiya" my self.... read post #4528 for better explanation...

 

[Bhadra]

The reason why British banished upper caste hindus and "bhiayas" was because they feared that they may revolt again and wont take it lying down. I don't want to get into dick measuring here state wise. Senior member like you should avoid calling racist names like "bhaiya" on this forum if you have any degree of sense. Mods please take note of this comment by Mr. Bhadra sir.

It is not only the British but all the invaders particularly the Muslims who have very deliberately and consciously destroyed Indian Brahmin/ Kshatriya / Rajput / Warrior classes and castes thereby diminishing a society's capability to respond militarily against the foreigners.

Peasants class of India always made the bulk of armies including amongst Marathas and Sikh. It was the leadership that vested with higher casts. The foreign invaders destroyed the leadership class and in place imposed Muslims as a military leader. Muslims and the British even infiltrated the native armies of the native states to take up leadership positions in their militaries and influenced them in a major manner.

So what do we find at independence - India had bureaucrats, civil servants, politicians, doctors, engineers, industrialists but no solid military leadership, no strategic thinkers and institutions. The Indian military tradition stood completely destroyed....

 

[Shashank Nayak]

@Bhadra .. Regarding blacktopping of road in Lipulekh.. and Nepal protesting at China's behest.. do you have more idea of the terrain in the area.. and can good infrastructure in the area facilitate offensive operations into Tibet by Strike Corps...

 

[JBH22]

I knew it would touch sensitivities.
Bihar and UP do contribute one of the largest numbers of troops because of their population size and has many glorious Regiments to their credit. BIHAR REGT, RAJPUT REGT, GRENADIERS, JAT, KUMAON REGT (for Ahirs), Artillary, Armoured, Engineers and Services.. all. Formerly all Regts of Bengal Presidency. That makes a sizable force. Except for JAT Regt, all others are mixed assorted class composition units. IA gets well educated lots from these two states and they can be largely found in technical arms such as Medical Corps.

The soldiers of UP and Bihar have not shown any lesser combat performances but higher indiscipline tendencies which is intrinsic to their population characteristics.

No question of touching sensibility. My moot point was is there any indication that they had poorer combat performance when compared to other combat units.

UP and Bihari are not gung ho as in haryana, but yes they have lesser disposition to order

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra .. Regarding blacktopping of road in Lipulekh.. and Nepal protesting at China's behest.. do you have more idea of the terrain in the area.. and can good infrastructure in the area facilitate offensive operations into Tibet by Strike Corps...

yes sir. please refer to my post on it in India - China LAC thread. Both the concerns are addressed..

Here I can say that Lipulekh is one of the recognized passes through which a border trade is carried out between India and Tibet occasionally since 1959. The terrain is extremely tough but they have made it....

Kudos.. sir..... kudos.... People of Dharchula and Gunji will be extremely happy.

You can start from Delhi in the night by train and sip your frozen beer on top of Lipulekh by next evening...

 

[Mikesingh]

RIP bravehearts.

 

[Mikesingh]

Indian Army’s only cavalry unit set to replace its horses with tanks

The Jaipur-based 61st Cavalry is set to say goodbye to its horses, as the government is said to have approved a proposal to equip it with T-72 tanks.

The Indian Army’s only mounted cavalry regiment is set to say goodbye to its horses, with the government approving a proposal to equip the 61st Cavalry with tanks, two senior officers said on condition of anonymity.


The famous 61st Cavalry is being converted into a regular armoured regiment on the basis of a recommendation made by the Lieutenant General DB Shekatkar (retd) committee in a report on sharpening the army’s combat edge and trimming its revenue expenditure, said one of the officers cited above.


The Jaipur-based 61st Cavalry is likely to be equipped with T-72 tanks. “Three independent squadrons of other regiments are being amalgamated under the headquarters of the 61st Cavalry to form the new tank unit,” the officer added.

The regiment’s 300-odd horses (200 in Jaipur and around 100 with a squadron of 61st Cavalry in Delhi) will become part of a new equestrian node, he said.

Lieutenant General Shekatkar, who headed the 11-member expert committee named after him, said the recommendation to mechanise the 61st Cavalry was taken after scrutinising the track record of the unit.

“It has not taken part in any operation during the last 25 years. Nowhere in the world is playing polo or taking part in equestrian sports the main occupation of any army unit. It’s in the army’s best interests that it (the unit) operates tanks instead of horses,” Shekatkar said.

The decision to mechanise the mounted regiment, steeped in tradition and sporting history, has evoked mixed reactions. While some in the army argue that the regiment’s military heritage should have been preserved, others counter that it makes more sense to assign the 61st Cavalry an operational role rather than limiting it to ceremonial functions and sporting events.

Indian Army’s only cavalry unit set to replace its horses with tanks

The Jaipur-based 61st Cavalry is set to say goodbye to its horses, as the government is said to have approved a proposal to equip it with T-72 tanks.

theprint.in

It's a debate between the preservation of heritage and operationalization of the unit for battle by equipping it with tanks.

And then some would ask, why equip them with the older T-72s? Why not Arjun or T-90SM?

 

[fire starter]

Artillery guns in Negative List come as a boost to Private defence contractors in India.

Artillery guns have been put in a Negative list of items banned from imports recently by the Ministry of Defence (MOD), which comes as a huge boost for the Indian Private defense industry where Army had the requirement for 1,580 towed guns and the majority of the systems might eventually be manufactured locally by major Private contractors like Bharat Forge and Tata Defence which has co-developed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) with India’s State-owned DRDO. Negative List will impact Israel’s Elbit Systems which had won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion for 400 guns to meet Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun requirement, which now might go solely to the ATAGS developed locally in India.

Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) requirement made of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted, and 145 ultra-light howitzers. Dhanush 155 mm, 45 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, and ATAGS will make up the requirements of 1,580 towed Artillery Gun Systems. India procured 100 units of K9 Vajra-T 155 mm/52 calibre tracked self-propelled gun systems for the Indian Army but force’s requirement for 300 more guns might come from DRDO which can develop Arjun Chassis based ATAGS ” BHIM” to meet tracked self-propelled gun systems requirements. Ordnance Factory Board developed 155 mm, 52 calibre artillery Truck-mounted gun could be the first choice now which was also displayed at the Defencexpo and has cleared Internal firing trials but they are chances that Army might prefer ATAGS based Truck-mounted gun to cut production cost and to avoid induction of new type of Artillery Gun Systems. Bharat Forge developed Ultra-Light Howitzer (ULH) 155mm/39cal and Super ULH (Titanium) could meet future requirements for ultra-light howitzers over M777 already procured from BAE Systems.

 

[Lancer]

Artillery guns in Negative List come as a boost to Private defence contractors in India.

Artillery guns have been put in a Negative list of items banned from imports recently by the Ministry of Defence (MOD), which comes as a huge boost for the Indian Private defense industry where Army had the requirement for 1,580 towed guns and the majority of the systems might eventually be manufactured locally by major Private contractors like Bharat Forge and Tata Defence which has co-developed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) with India’s State-owned DRDO. Negative List will impact Israel’s Elbit Systems which had won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion for 400 guns to meet Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun requirement, which now might go solely to the ATAGS developed locally in India.

Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Programme (FARP) requirement made of 1,580 towed, 400 self-propelled, 814 mounted, and 145 ultra-light howitzers. Dhanush 155 mm, 45 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board, and ATAGS will make up the requirements of 1,580 towed Artillery Gun Systems. India procured 100 units of K9 Vajra-T 155 mm/52 calibre tracked self-propelled gun systems for the Indian Army but force’s requirement for 300 more guns might come from DRDO which can develop Arjun Chassis based ATAGS ” BHIM” to meet tracked self-propelled gun systems requirements. Ordnance Factory Board developed 155 mm, 52 calibre artillery Truck-mounted gun could be the first choice now which was also displayed at the Defencexpo and has cleared Internal firing trials but they are chances that Army might prefer ATAGS based Truck-mounted gun to cut production cost and to avoid induction of new type of Artillery Gun Systems. Bharat Forge developed Ultra-Light Howitzer (ULH) 155mm/39cal and Super ULH (Titanium) could meet future requirements for ultra-light howitzers over M777 already procured from BAE Systems.
View attachment 48014

Excellent news for the ATAGS and Dhanush. No good reason why they weren't being given the sole priority. The ALH and LUH helicopters (along with variants) should be given a push in similar manner.

 

[ezsasa]

RFI for 150 Micro UAV by IA.

 

[WolfPack86]

Atmanirbhar in Defence: Old Wine in New Bottle

New defense reforms to help make the Indian Defence Sector `Atmanirbhar’ just seems to be Old Wine in New Bottle with little or nothing actually for defense sector in India to work from scratch as so-called ” Negative List” which bars Indian forces from acquiring weapons and systems from foreign countries has very limited and insignificant items to be called major reform policy of the government in the Countries defense sectors.

Leaving Artillery systems, the list consists of Ammunitions and Remotely Piloted Drones systems which most of the countries could build locally in the country anyways. The so-called ” Negative List” does not has Fighter jets, Main Battle Tanks, Submarines, or even Assault rifles and other expensive defense items that usually leave a hole in the pocket of the country.

Atmanirbhar in Defence still allows foreign-made weapons to be manufactured locally in India under previous Make In India initiative which was announced years ago and under which India has been manufacturing Assault rifles, fighter jets, Main Battle Tanks and even Submarines under Transfer of Technology (ToT) from foreign vendors at an inflated price with substandard results for decades now by government-owned Public sector companies.

While Many Private sector companies have lauded PM’s Atmanirbhar in Defence but many are still not sure what else is prohibited and major defense company L&T even sought clarity on the list of banned weapons to provide a clear road-map for the Indian industry to build capacity and capability, even Armed forces are allowed to buy foreign weapons under Make In India route then so-called ” Negative List” makes little sense unless high ticket items like Assault rifles, fighter jets, Main Battle Tanks and even Submarines are also included in them.

Atmanirbhar in Defence: Old Wine in New Bottle – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[WolfPack86]

Import ban not on niche tech: Army Vice Chief
Tribune News Service



New Delhi, May 22

The Vice Chief of Indian Army, Lt Gen SK Saini, on Friday said the proposed 'import ban' list of military hardware will not restrict the forces to procure niche technologies from abroad.


Addressing a webinar organised by the Society for Indian Defence Manufacturers, he said a large number of indigenous industry and micro small and medium enterprises would be given opportunity to fulfil the defence needs of the Army.

The General said there was a perceptible shift of dependence of the Army from OFBs to private entities in terms of non-core activities and certain type of critical ammunition. He expressed hope that other ammunition varieties, including those that were being imported currently, based on the response of the defence industry, would also be added to the list of items to be manufactured indigenously.

He said 80 per cent of the Army's capability development and more than 92 per cent of its sustenance budget was based on indigenous products and services.

Import ban not on niche tech: Army Vice Chief

The Vice Chief of Indian Army, Lt Gen SK Saini, on Friday said the proposed 'import ban' list of military hardware will not restrict the forces to procure niche technologies from abroad.

www.tribuneindia.com