Indian Army: News and Discussion

[Defcon 1]

I wonder if IA should invest in building at least 1-2 sq km dense urban combat mockup for training now itself..

have atleast 30-50 thousand dedicated troops to handle urban combat.

Simulate and train for :
tank scenarios,
counter sniper scenarios,
riot scenarios,
counter IED scenarios,
counter VBIED scenarios,
house to house search scenarios etc etc..

Would be cheaper and more effective to invest in VR for training instead.

 

[ezsasa]

Would be cheaper and more effective to invest in VR for training instead.

Sure VR can also be used for strategy simulations.

But..

Don’t think VR can simulate the stress during battle field conditions, and also cannot simulate the logistics and battle load per soldier during those scenarios.

More over same setup can used to train riot police as well, is past month is any indication we are in for a rough ride thru urban riots this decade.

 

[rone]

IA has released an EOI for T-72, T-92 APFSDS for MII domestic private companies(only).
Quantity : 85000, 250 each for trials.
DoP : 530mm at 60 deg from 2000m

View attachment 41363

That's a hell of penetrating power becoz in 60deg at 2000m is half of the DOP at 0 deg 2000m for example the mango round we produce now have DOP 450 mm at 0* at 2000m where 230 mm at 60* , am not sure about this eoi, is it possible to fire sabot with this length and DOP on non modernised t72 OR t90

 

[Adioz]

That's a hell of penetrating power becoz in 60deg at 2000m is half of the DOP at 0 deg 2000m for example the mango round we produce now have DOP 450 mm at 0* at 2000m where 230 mm at 60* , am not sure about this eoi, is it possible to fire sabot with this length and DOP on non modernised t72 OR t90

The EOI is alright and DRDO Mk II APFSDS round has this capability. The DOP mentioned is in terms of actual penetration distance, not in terms of defeated plate.

Elaboration follows:-
____________________________________________________________________________________________
The penetration of 230 mm of Mango is in terms of defeated plate at 2000 m at 60 degree angle. Look at the table in this:-
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html
This means that the Mango round was able to penetrate a 230 mm plate at 60 degree angle at 2000 meters. So in terms of actual penetration capability, it is 2*230 = 460 mm as per aforementioned source.

As per the EOI in question ( https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/689/EoI - 125MM APFSDS Amn.pdf ) the Mango round in Indian Army has penetration of 470 mm.

Look at this RFI Indian Army released back in 2012. ( https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/172/RFI 125 mm FSAPDS.pdf )
This is the one which bought us the Mango rounds. Here they mention it as "225 mm RHA plate at 62 degrees NATO target".

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

The EOI is alright and DRDO Mk II APFSDS round has this capability. The DOP mentioned is in terms of actual penetration distance, not in terms of defeated plate.

Elaboration follows:-
____________________________________________________________________________________________
The penetration of 230 mm of Mango is in terms of defeated plate at 2000 m at 60 degree angle. Look at the table in this:-
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html
This means that the Mango round was able to penetrate a 230 mm plate at 60 degree angle at 2000 meters. So in terms of actual penetration capability, it is 2*230 = 460 mm as per aforementioned source.

As per the EOI in question ( https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/689/EoI - 125MM APFSDS Amn.pdf ) the Mango round in Indian Army has penetration of 470 mm.

Look at this RFI Indian Army released back in 2012. ( https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/172/RFI 125 mm FSAPDS.pdf )
This is the one which bought us the Mango rounds. Here they mention it as "225 mm RHA plate at 62 degrees NATO target".

____________________________________________________________________________________________

So for the new round the penetration at 0° for a target 2000m away would be close to 800-1000mm RHA.

 

[Adioz]

BTW, anybody got any idea about frontal armour RHA equiv. of Paki tanks like Al-Khalid and T-80?
AFAIK, Al-Khalid is 450 mm turret, no idea about hull.
No idea about T-80. It would have more than 500 mm turret frontal IMHO.
So all in all, DRDO MkII APFSDS will pierce all Paki turrets at 2000 meters but not sure about T-80.

As for Chinese T-96 and T-99, forget it. We need better APFSDS.

So I came across this presentation on Army's website about DGMF in talks with vendors regarding a new barrel and a new APFSDS round for DOP > 600mm. PSQR should be done by last December. The new barrel will sustain higher pressures and allow for faster round. No change to auto-loaders though. (Newer, better Russian APFSDS rounds are longer and can be accommodated in T-90 but not in autoloader of older T-72 tanks. Wondering if our own Bhishma also has bigger autoloaders than T-72)

Wonder if DRDO is working on new barrel for T-72 and T-90. Anybody got any info? @porky_kicker ?

 

[Adioz]

So for the new round the penetration at 0° for a target 2000m away would be close to 800-1000mm RHA.

No. Its 500-550 mm. The new EOI mentions DOP as penetration depth, not in terms of defeated plate.

EDIT: For DOP of 800 mm - 1000 mm, we need long penetrators with length to dia. ratio of ~40. Like the Americans. But these would be too long to fit in autoloaders of T-72 and T-90.
This current round has length-dia. of 20.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

BTW, anybody got any idea about frontal armour RHA equiv. of Paki tanks like Al-Khalid and T-80?
AFAIK, Al-Khalid is 450 mm turret, no idea about hull.
No idea about T-80. It would have more than 500 mm turret frontal IMHO.
So all in all, DRDO MkII APFSDS will pierce all Paki turrets at 2000 meters but not sure about T-80.

As for Chinese T-96 and T-99, forget it. We need better APFSDS.

So I came across this presentation on Army's website about DGMF in talks with vendors regarding a new barrel and a new APFSDS round for DOP > 600mm. PSQR should be done by last December. The new barrel will sustain higher pressures and allow for faster round. No change to auto-loaders though. (Newer, better Russian APFSDS rounds are longer and can be accommodated in T-90 but not in autoloader of older T-72 tanks. Wondering if our own Bhishma also has bigger autoloaders than T-72)

Wonder if DRDO is working on new barrel for T-72 and T-90. Anybody got any info? @porky_kicker ?

Type 96 tank of the PLA is basically a T-72 copy.
If we want an upper hand over the Chinese armour we need better turrets on our T-72, T-90 tanks alon with APFSDS rounds which can penetrate 800mm of RHA. Something like the Sinvets-1 APFSDS.

 

[Atcjurvin]

125mm mk2 fsapds is having penetration of 500mm

 

[Atcjurvin]

new 125mm fsapds is under development.

 

[Adioz]

Type 96 tank of the PLA is basically a T-72 copy.
If we want an upper hand over the Chinese armour we need better turrets on our T-72, T-90 tanks alon with APFSDS rounds which can penetrate 800mm of RHA. Something like the Sinvets-1 APFSDS.

Svinets has DOP of 600 mm. DGMF, IA is already canvassing for equivalent rounds. I remember reading that Russians had made a 700 mm DOP APFSDS around a decade ago. So 800 mm is out of our reach for now.

As for T-96, the newer variants have good layer of DRDO Mk II class ERA. We could upgrade some 1000 T-72 with DRDO Mk II ERA like so:-

This will protect our T-72 against Paki DU round as well limited protection against ATGM and tank-fired HEAT projectiles, especially in the absence of APS systems.
The other 1000 T-72 will be replaced given this new order of 450 T-90S + 450 T-90MS + 118 Arjun Mk1A
Rest 1600 are already T-90. But do we have funds for T-72 upgrade?

As for T-96, the newer variants have good layer of DRDO Mk II class ERA. So T-96 and T-90 should be roughly same in frontal armour i.e. 800 mm RHA equiv. against APFSDS. As for T-99, that should be similar to T-90 MS i.e. 1100 mm RHA equiv. Point is that Chinese tanks are indigenous, so they will feature regular upgrades in protection. Our APFSDS capability lags behind.

What DGMF, Army Design Bureau and DRDO should do is develop a new tank (FMBT?) which is similar to T-14 Armata in philosophy. That is the only way to drastically improve protection while managing to keep the tank light enough for Army's "bridges in Pak problem".

We already have MMW seeker for SANT. Maybe we can develop an APS based on that tech? It won't be as good as Afghanit, but will certainly be sufficient for SALCOS ATGM like those employed by Pak Army and PLA.

We can also build a longer barrel like in Armata and build a big autoloader that loads rounds in single piece. Then, we will be able to develop long rod APFSDS with >800 mm penetration.

Given that Gen. Rawat did see the Armata during his visit to Russia and that the few graphics that have come out of DRDO regarding FMBT also point towards this approach, maybe this is what will happen in the end. Till then, T-90, Arjun and T-72 (with DRDO ERA Mk II) should hold the fort. Not sure where FRCV nonsense fits in all this. FMBT can't surely be ready by 2025. Lots of confusion created by this FRCV.

 

[Adioz]

new 125mm fsapds is under development.

This tweet seems like its based on this presentation by DGMF: https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinind...S AMMUNITION WITH HIGH DoP OF 600 – 800MM.pdf

Lets ask the tweeter himself. @Vinod DX9 , what was your source of information for this tweet?

 

[porky_kicker]

BTW, anybody got any idea about frontal armour RHA equiv. of Paki tanks like Al-Khalid and T-80?
AFAIK, Al-Khalid is 450 mm turret, no idea about hull.
No idea about T-80. It would have more than 500 mm turret frontal IMHO.
So all in all, DRDO MkII APFSDS will pierce all Paki turrets at 2000 meters but not sure about T-80.

As for Chinese T-96 and T-99, forget it. We need better APFSDS.

So I came across this presentation on Army's website about DGMF in talks with vendors regarding a new barrel and a new APFSDS round for DOP > 600mm. PSQR should be done by last December. The new barrel will sustain higher pressures and allow for faster round. No change to auto-loaders though. (Newer, better Russian APFSDS rounds are longer and can be accommodated in T-90 but not in autoloader of older T-72 tanks. Wondering if our own Bhishma also has bigger autoloaders than T-72)

Wonder if DRDO is working on new barrel for T-72 and T-90. Anybody got any info? @porky_kicker ?

Can't say surely , i think i do remember reading something to that effect.

 

[12arya]

Indian Northern Army Commander Lt Gen Ranbir Singh with military delegation visits Xinjiang, China

@adgpi

A high level military delegation led by Lt. General Ranbir Singh, Commander of Indian Army’s Northern Command yesterday visited Xinjiang, the politically important north-west province of China bordering Pakistan occupied Kashmir.

He held talks with senior Chinese Military leaders in province’s capital Urumqi on issue of mutual interest.

Today, he will visit a regiment of Xinjiang Military Command. As per the tweets of Indian Army’s Northern Command, the delegation has also met the Commander of Western Theatre Command, General Zhao Zongqi at Chengdu on Wednesday and discussed issues of joint training and furthering peace at borders.

Western Theatre Command covers entire India-China border and is the most important from the view point of border dispute resolution and regional security environment.

Earlier on Tuesday, Lt. Gen. Singh called on General Han Weiguo, Chief of People's Liberation Army of China in Beijing where both exchanged views on measures to further enhance peace & tranquility along the borders. Visit will be concluded tomorrow after a visit to Shanghai.

AIR Beijing correspondent reports that the visit is part of agreed Defence engagements between both sides agreed during Annual Defence dialogues. The visit is aimed at enhancing confidence building measures between armies of both sides, mainly Northern Command in India and Western Theatre Command in China to understand each other’s sensitivities on the ground and avoid misunderstandings along border.

In past two years, there has been increased frequency of high level visits between armies of both the countries to enhance military coordination, trust and understanding. This visit comes just after the joint military exercise, ‘Hand in Hand 2019’ held between the two armies in Meghalaya in December 2019.

In line with the vision of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi Jinping after two informal summits, high level exchanges between the defence forces of both the countries are considered vital to enhance the mutual trust and cooperation.


Few days ago, China had expressed its willingness to work with the Indian side to follow the guidance of Prime Minister Modi and President Xi for development of military-to-military relationship along the right track and make more contributions to the growth of the bilateral relations

 

[12arya]

Over 300 terrorists, including Afghans, at PoK launchpads: Intel

The latest intelligence report mentions that around 40-50 terror launchpads are currently functional in PoK and are being facilitated by Pakistan's intelligence agency ISI and Pakistan Army to train terrorists. The report warns that these terrorists are set to infiltrate into India to carry out major attacks in J&K and other major cities.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...pok-launchpads-intel/articleshow/73190413.cms

 

[12arya]

Indian Army is apolitical, asserts new army chief
1 min read . Updated: 04 Jan 2020, 01:15 AM IST IANS

• 'It is a misperception of a few people which is totally incorrect,' said Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane

Chief of Army Staff General Manoj Mukund Naravane shakes hands with President Ram Nath Kovind, at Rashtrapati Bhavan, in New Delhi on Friday (Photo: ANI)
New Delhi: Refuting allegations levelled by a few opposition parties about politicisation of the armed forces, new Indian Army chief, Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane on Friday asserted that the army is apolitical.

In response to a question on this issue during a media interaction with a few journalists at the Army headquarters here, Gen Naravane said: "I totally disagree. We are apolitical. It is a misperception of a few people which is totally incorrect."

Asked about the army being called in to build a railway bridge, cleaning of Himalayas and other getting involved in other activities apart from operational preparedness, he stressed: "Army is of the people and for the people."

He said that the army did right thing by constructing a bridge at the railway station. "If we made a bridge for the people, we did a good work. There is nothing wrong in it," Naravane said.

In 2017, 23 people died due to the Elphinstone foot over bridge collapse in Mumbai and the army was called in to construct a new foot over bridge over there. The bridges were constructed by army Engineers in a record 117 days.

The bridge at Elphinstone Road station is 70 metres long, and as many as 250 personnel of the Bombay Engineering Group and Centre, Pune, also known as Bombay Sappers, were involved in the task that was completed within four months.

On January 1, Gen Bipin Rawat, the country's first Chief of the Defence Staff, also stressed that the Indian armed forces are away from politics. "We are far away from politics. We work as per directions of government of the day," he stressed.

 

[WolfPack86]

Republic Day Parade Rehearsal Begins In Delhi’s India Gate

 

[fire starter]

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[bhramos]

Delegation of officers from #SingaporeArmy visited the #IndianArmy Armoured Corps Centre & School. Visit strengthens #cooperation and military relations between the two Nations.

 

[fire starter]

7.62×39mm gun developed by sss defence