Indian Army Aviation Wing

[H.A.]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

^^^ In the above scenario, they would have just been given a duty by IAF to follow the IA orders for a set period of time (something like they are posted on duty)...

Why I said the above statement is because now the control is 100 % in the hands of IA and no more orders from IAF, if thats the case it means that the IAF personnel are no longer associated with IAF?....

But then again these are my personal assumptions, I don't know what is the situation like on the field....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Those Two Squadrons of MI-25 will be operated by IA from now on, And these birds may remain with additional LCH and Rudra..

does it mean that the army can get its own set of apaches or any other helicopters or is it that the IAF will have to transfer their MI-35s and the newly ordered Apaches to the IA?if so then what happens to the ARMED variant of Dhruv(Rudra) and the LCH firm order given by the IAF(which i think is around 65)?will it join the IAF or will itbe cancelled as the IA has already ordered around 73 ALH(over half of them are Rudras) and a firm order of around 114 LCH already?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Over Field IAF is very friendly with IA, there are Air-force official are always with ground IA personal for Instructions to forward to there own HQ..

Now as this whole system work under Army the reaction time is reduced and ground commanders have more flexibility conduction an operations..

It should be also noted that before under IAF control, Army request sometimes are denied, But in this case chance of such are lesser..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Army can upgrade these helos again if needed..

One good upgrade is here :

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Indian Army to get its own attack helicopters


:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

New Delhi: In a move that is likely raise hackles within the Indian Air Force (IAF), the government has decided to allow the Indian Army to acquire its own fleet of attack helicopters.

The decision comes days after IAF chief Air Marshal N A K Browne told reporters on October 5 that it was not possible to have "little air forces". Days later, on October 9, Defence Minister A K Antony, had termed the fight between the IAF and Army over the attack helicopters as a 'family problem'.

National Security Advisor Shiv Shanker Menon had to intervene on behalf of Defence Minister A K Antony in the three year row between the Air Force and the Army over who would own the attack helicopters.

After talking to both Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne and Army Chief General Bikram Singh this week, Mr Menon advised the Government that Army should own and operate the medium lift attack helicopters. The first batch of Apache helicopters to be bought from USA programme may go the Indian Army. Currently, India has two squadrons of attack helicopters, Mi-25 and Mi-35, which are maintained and manned by the Indian Air Force but under the operational control of the Indian Army.

The Indian Army has been for long making a case for having its own fleet of attack helicopters. The Army contends that having its own attack helicopters rather than depending on the IAF would give the land forces more power and reach in tactical situations.

It also argued that having its own attack helicopters is integral to the Cold Start Doctrine - designed to cut down the time taken to mobilise troops. Apart from the three strike Corps, Army has now designated its holding corps as the pivot which can launch offensive defence before strike corps take over. Concerned with enormous time taken to mobilise the strike corps after the 2001 terrorist strike on the Indian Parliament - after which India nearly went to war with Pakistan - the Army revised its deployment and operational plans.

The IAF, however, argues that using attack helicopters without the support of larger air assets like interceptor and attack aircraft would make the slow moving attack helicopters vulnerable. And to ensure that large aircraft are always available to support and sanitise airspace, the attack helicopters should be with the IAF. Also, the IAF contends land forces which are equipped with attack helicopters - like the US - fights wars differently than India.

The IAF had also contended that allowing the Army to own attack helicopter would lead to duplication of assets.

The proposal to arm the Indian Army with attack helicopters was mooted by the former controversial Chief of Army Staff V K Singh as a part of transformation of the Army into a more leaner, meaner and network-centric force. Four exercises held on the western front under Western and South Western Commands in 2011 and 2012 had brought out the need to have attack helicopters as an integral part of the assembled firepower. The proposal was shelved after the relation between the Government and Army Headquarters plummeted following the age row of General V K Singh.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Black water, Nice photo you can use it for your avatar..

 

[Ray]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Is this decision of the Govt personality based?

In my considered opinion from a purely military point of view, it is not really working out well if anyone wishes to indicate that it was because of Bikramjit the issue was resolved.

In these days of scams and Exposés, such innocent 'indicators' could give rise to the speculation that there is an attempt to indicate that a parochial nexus is the reason why the issue has been resolved.

I am sure that would not have been what you wanted to indicate.

But then loose lips sinks ships!

 

[Ray]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

It should not be forgotten that flying helicopters of any kind is also depended on the control of the Airspace in the AD environment.

In battle, low level airspace is all occupied by Army weaponry to include AD guns and Artillery.

It is essential that there is fine control of the low level AD environment so that the helicopters can be operated in a selective area Army weapons freeze environment.

Army, as we all know, is best informed of the ground combat situation and can fine tune the employment of helicopters of all types, especially those which are in support of the land battle.

The proposal to arm the Indian Army with attack helicopters was mooted by the former controversial Chief of Army Staff V K Singh as a part of transformation of the Army into a more leaner, meaner and network-centric force. Four exercises held on the western front under Western and South Western Commands in 2011 and 2012 had brought out the need to have attack helicopters as an integral part of the assembled firepower. The proposal was shelved after the relation between the Government and Army Headquarters plummeted following the age row of General V K Singh.

This issue has been hanging fire well before VK Singh's time and so this part is a bit motivated to give colour to the story by bringing the problems of VK Singh and the Govt.

VK Singh may have brushed up the age old issue based on the current environment.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Army, as we all know, is best informed of the ground combat situation and can fine tune the employment of helicopters of all types, especially those which are in support of the land battle.

So, does that mean IAF helicopters fly in a more risky environment because they don't have men on the ground and have to rely on Army directives?

Also, are pilots at higher ranks comfortable taking orders from lower ranked officers or even Jawans on the ground?

 

[Phenom]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Why would you consider it a order, its more like team work.

A Jawan on the battlefield will have better tactical knowledge on where to attack at any given time, than a commander in his bunker. So its just more efficient to inputs from him directly.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

IAF and IA helicopters both fly together from same airbases, Work together, eat together, Sleep together over font line bases even in peace areas..

People in ATC are not Air Marshals not Army Generals who give instructions to pilots, by the logic put here, Air-Chief and General should be in ATC rather in there HQ..

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To the topic cant wait to see those MI-35 in IA color, Perhaps in Digital as LCH ..

 

[Ray]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

So, does that mean IAF helicopters fly in a more risky environment because they don't have men on the ground and have to rely on Army directives?

Also, are pilots at higher ranks comfortable taking orders from lower ranked officers or even Jawans on the ground?

No. It is not that IAF is any less, but sure they would not take the Army's assessment at face value and depend on the IAF assessment. And the assessment can vary.

Take the case of Tom Dulat, a senior Sikh Army Aviation chap.

He got a frantic SOS in Siachen to save some chap who would surely die if not evacuated.

Under normal circumstances, flying at that time was a no go given strict safety rules.

He flew on his own and saved the man.

But he was sacked for endangering the pilot (including himself) and govt property!

Those imposing rules are right, but then........

The man who he saved is indebted to Tom Dulat for life and so is the Indian army chaps who were there and around those areas!

Orders for flyng is not even by jawans or officers.

The CO in contact as for air support. It is vetted by various HQs and then given the situation that request is OKayed or rejected and the one who initiated the request informed.

Before you say that vetting at various level would take time, I would only amplify that the request is simultaneous to all HQs and the highest HQ starts implementing the request to the helicopter Wing immediate, while they check the necessity and the environment.

The intermediary HQs have 10 minutes to give their acceptance or rejection.

By that time, the highest HQ conducting the battle would have made up their mind and given the OK and the helicopters take off.

If they reject, then nothing is lost as far as the operational readiness of the helicopters that they were at while the request was being vetted!

The TOT (Time over Target) is also given to the one requesting so that there is a weapons hold at that time plus minus the margins in time of high trajectory weapons so that the strike can go in safe.

 

[Ray]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

A Jawan on the battlefield will have better tactical knowledge on where to attack at any given time, than a commander in his bunker.

Let us be clear, notwithstanding the fairy tale spun by the media for romanticism and which is popularly believed, that it is the jawan alone who faces the brunt, while the officer is in the bunker.

If a battle is lost or botched, then it is not the head of the jawan which rolls. It is the head of the officer that rolls.

The IA is a No Mistake Army unfortunately and so there is no come back - if you are in command, you are responsible no matter who erred or did not perform!

Therefore, in battle, no officer can be in his bunker while the jawan braves it out. I am sure you have heard of 'IA officers lead from the front'.

That is because if he does not, his 'tail' (to put it politely) is what that will be violated!

And that would be no fun.

It is not only for the pay that one join the Army, but the Army instils in you the ideals of Naam, Namak and Nishan and if you let that down and even if you are not sacked, you can never live it down.

There was a senior officer who rose to starry heights even though he bolted from Thagla ridge. (It was so confusing then that the real story took time to surface and none wanted to rake it up). But what was horrifying for him is that he could never look in the face of those who did not bolt!

However, the goodness of the officers and troops and the IA is that he was given his due for his rank, even though they all knew what he was worth!

 

[Ray]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

IAF and IA helicopters both fly together from same airbases,

Not everywhere.

I was Station Commander at two places where it was only Army Aviation. One in J&K and one in the East.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Sir, my point was that they do work together..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

 

[p2prada]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Orders for flyng is not even by jawans or officers.

I did not mean that. When I asked this I meant soldiers on the ground requesting fire support from a helicopter regardless of his rank from an officer of a higher rank sitting in the cockpit.

I don't really know what happens in the air or the ground. I also do not know if the soldiers on the ground can prioritize targets for the helicopters either. So, if a Jawan on the ground deems one particular target is more important than the other contrary to the Wing Commander's (pilot) opinion, then can we assume the Jawan can override the Wing Commander's opinion?

So, my question is who is actually in charge when fire support is requested, the main in the air or the man on the ground? And whether there are ego clashes during the time if there is a difference in opinion? I also want to know if this question is a valid question.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Army gets control over attack helicopters

Is this decision of the Govt personality based?

Even if it is so, it was long overdue and very necessary if Army is ordered to execute a cold start or proactive operations .... soon (may be in next ten - twenty years) army will have their own close support air force and the air force will singularly concentrated on air dominance.