Indian Army Aviation Wing

[pankaj nema]

Mig 27 and Jaguars can do the same job much safely as they are supersonic and
and can fly high enough to evade AA arty and stingers

Will a sub sonic Su 25 survive a dense Anti aircraft battlefield

The small combat radius of Su 25 ; 375 km , is another liability because the nearest air strip will
be 100 km inside the border

 

[pmaitra]

Mig 27 and Jaguars can do the same job much safely as they are supersonic and
and can fly high enough to evade AA arty and stingers

Will a sub sonic Su 25 survive a dense Anti aircraft battlefield

The small combat radius of Su 25 ; 375 km , is another liability because the nearest air strip will
be 100 km inside the border

I think we should still back the Sukhoi-25. If you want, you can pick weaknesses in any aircraft. What you mentioned is correct, but remember, we have to setup a system of graduated response. We have the IA, which will be backed up by helicopter gunships and then by these ground support aircraft and then finally we have the larger umbrella that IAF can provide depending upon the threat perception. Do you recall India using modified Mil-17s as gunships in Kargil and then withdrawing them and IAF moving in with their planes?

 

[pankaj nema]

Rather than buying a squadron of Su 25 Army will prefer more arty and more missiles

Buying a plane means creating a lot of infrastructure like training pilots; mechanics for maintenance
selecting and storing ammunition and storing spares ,

The actual practice of attacking ground targets is the next level
there you also need ATC and suitable ground stations have to be set up

All these things take money and time

ALL these things are available ONLY with the IAF and there is no point duplicating all these things

IAF has many forward air bases all along the western front

The army has to be specific where exactly it needs more air support and where is it lacking
right now

All exercises these days are joint IAF Indian army exercises

IAF will simply add more Jaguars in its fleet if IA convinces IAF that air support is lacking

IAF knows its job pretty well

 

[pmaitra]

Rather than buying a squadron of Su 25 Army will prefer more arty and more missiles

Buying a plane means creating a lot of infrastructure like training pilots; mechanics for maintenance
selecting and storing ammunition and storing spares ,

The actual practice of attacking ground targets is the next level
there you also need ATC and suitable ground stations have to be set up

All these things take money and time

ALL these things are available ONLY with the IAF and there is no point duplicating all these things

IAF has many forward air bases all along the western front

The army has to be specific where exactly it needs more air support

IAF will simply add more Jaguars in its fleet if IA convinces IAF that air support is lacking

Those maintenance-lacking Sukhoi-25s did pretty well in Georgia, don't you think so? While maintaining Jaguars would be more expensive, Sukhoi-25s will go light on the pocket. At the end of the day, it is GoI who has to pay for all this.

Sukhoi-25s can easily go to the point where air support is required and soften up any resistance while arty pieces will remain vulnerable and slow moving. In a Cold Start like scenario, we would not be aiming to go deep into Pakistani heartland but grab as much territory along the border as possible and force them to negotiate. In such an event, the short range of Sukhoi-25s will not be a bane but a boon. Also, Sukhoi-25s offer great flexibility with fuel: aviation fuel, kerosene or diesel.

 

[pankaj nema]

Making a Jaguar or MIG 27 at HAL is far cheaper and quicker than importing Su 25

We have made hundreds of them

Secondly and more importantly IAF has been ALWAYS providing CAS whether in 65 and 71

CAS is IAF's duty along with attacking other deep targets

And Jaguar and Mig 27 were bought at the SAME Time when Su 25 was available ie
in 1978

SO Su 25 has been found USELESS as compared to Mig 27 and Jaguar

 

[Adux]

Su-25 lines will be start again as order will be placed by RUAF..

..

Less said about the Russian 'future orders the better

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rather than buying a squadron of Su 25 Army will prefer more arty and more missiles

Buying a plane means creating a lot of infrastructure like training pilots; mechanics for maintenance
selecting and storing ammunition and storing spares ,

The actual practice of attacking ground targets is the next level
there you also need ATC and suitable ground stations have to be set up

All these things take money and time
ALL these things are available ONLY with the IAF and there is no point duplicating all these things
IAF has many forward air bases all along the western front

The army has to be specific where exactly it needs more air support and where is it lacking
right now All exercises these days are joint IAF Indian army exercises

IAF will simply add more Jaguars in its fleet if IA convinces IAF that air support is lacking
IAF knows its job pretty well

Army already pushed every thing for Arty and Missiles.. that is different topic..
Army already have such facilities in large sacle for Helos all around the country, Lancer also Rudra and LCH have same treatment..

Army and Air-force operate from same airfield with Air-force ATC personals, No problems there..

Every thing from Jeep to a tank takes time and money so does other assets..
The problem is:

1. lack of coordination which is their since 60s and dispite many improvement the problem is as it was..

2. Agree and disagree is their, There were requests rejected by Air-force before like once we wanted to bomb enemy position beyond LOC in kargil as it was too near and providing fire support openly and causing casulity on troops..

3. permission of MOD to bring Airforce into play was a major issue in 62 and even in Kargil were airforce is allowed after MOD clearance it took a month when IA had 300-400 lives lost..


Exercise were also used to be joint exercise in 80s too, Just the hardware is changed..

IAF is always doing a good Job..

 

[pmaitra]

Making a Jaguar or MIG 27 at HAL is far cheaper and quicker than importing Su 25

We have made hundreds of them

MiG-27s have been phased out because of a reason. They are variable geometry aircraft and are expensive to maintain.
http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-air-force/9650-mig-21-being-phased-out-defence-minister.html

Jaguars are good, but won't take the abuse Sukhoi-25s will.

We don't have to import Sukhoi-25s. If we can setup production lines for Sukhoi-30MKI, so can we for Sukhoi-25, if we need them in large enough numbers to be cost effective.

Secondly and more importantly IAF has been ALWAYS providing CAS whether in 65 and 71

CAS is IAF's duty along with attacking other deep targets

Why? Why should IAF always provide CAS? Why not give IA the flexibility to use their own aviation wing instead of relying on IAF everytime? Using its own aviation wing, IA can make quicker decisions with less communication hurdles.

And Jaguar and Mig 27 were bought at the SAME Time when Su 25 was available ie
in 1978

So what does that prove? Nothing really. Our doctrine was different. We are talking of a doctrine shift by giving more capability to the IA by letting them potentially have Sukhoi-25s.

SO Su 25 has been found USELESS as compared to Mig 27 and Jaguar

When have we used Sukhoi-25s to come to the conclusion that they have been found useless?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Mig 27 and Jaguars can do the same job much safely as they are supersonic and
and can fly high enough to evade AA arty and stingers

Will a sub sonic Su 25 survive a dense Anti aircraft battlefield

The small combat radius of Su 25 ; 375 km , is another liability because the nearest air strip will
be 100 km inside the border

MIG-27 and Jag are not pure CAS Aircrafts, Their is a reason SU-25 and A-10 are called dedicated CAS aircrafts..

Check the 1st -3rd pages for the Photos..

It depend how and where the things provided it depends on the strategy..

Making a Jaguar or MIG 27 at HAL is far cheaper and quicker than importing Su 25

Secondly and more importantly IAF has been ALWAYS providing CAS whether in 65 and 71

You are mixing pure CAS air crafts with deep penetration Jets...

IAF is always for Army true, I have given reason whey IA should have limited no of Jets and why jets..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Less said about the Russian 'future orders the better

In truth SU-25 is a outstanding aircraft..

But the same job we demand can be offered by Simple AJT / IJT

 

[sandeepdg]

Making a Jaguar or MIG 27 at HAL is far cheaper and quicker than importing Su 25

We have made hundreds of them

Secondly and more importantly IAF has been ALWAYS providing CAS whether in 65 and 71

CAS is IAF's duty along with attacking other deep targets

And Jaguar and Mig 27 were bought at the SAME Time when Su 25 was available ie
in 1978

SO Su 25 has been found USELESS as compared to Mig 27 and Jaguar

Jaguar and Mig 27 are CAS aircraft ?? How did you come to that conclusion ? Jaguar is a deep penetration strike aircraft for ground attack roles and Mig-27 is ground attack/bomber aircraft.

There's a difference between ground attack aircraft and purely CAS aircraft. Su-25 and A-10 fall in the category of CAS aircraft.

 

[Adux]

In truth SU-25 is a outstanding aircraft..

But the same job we demand can be offered by Simple AJT / IJT

Yes. But Russian Armed forces or their defense industry is in outstanding shape.
Technically Yes, and Practically No. The capacity of A-10 and Su-25 to take hits, their durability, their ruggedness is their greatest strength. Su-25 for example can take multiple fuel types. Also HAL aircrafts will most probably end up costing more than their counter parts.

 

[Adux]

In truth SU-25 is a outstanding aircraft..

But the same job we demand can be offered by Simple AJT / IJT

Yes. But Russian Armed forces or their defense industry is in outstanding shape.
Technically Yes, and Practically No. The capacity of A-10 and Su-25 to take hits, their durability, their ruggedness is their greatest strength. Su-25 for example can take multiple fuel types. Also HAL aircrafts will most probably end up costing more than their counter parts.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes. But Russian Armed forces or their defense industry is in outstanding shape.
Technically Yes, and Practically No. The capacity of A-10 and Su-25 to take hits, their durability, their ruggedness is their greatest strength. Su-25 for example can take multiple fuel types. Also HAL aircrafts will most probably end up costing more than their counter parts.

I cannot comment on Russian Industry but they are going good..

I dont know why HAL will cost more, though what is needed is to Drop LGB from high altitudes to knock out stuborn enemy fortifications, Their are other needs too..

 

[Adux]

I cannot comment on Russian Industry but they are going good..

Not really

I dont know why HAL will cost more,

Corruption, Extreme amounts, you need to hear some stories about it, it will stupendify you.

though what is needed is to Drop LGB from high altitudes to knock out stuborn enemy fortifications, Their are other needs too.

.

This is what USAF is trying with the F-35

 

[pankaj nema]

The FIRST step for purchasing a new weapon system in Indian armed forces is
known as " Acceptance of Necessity " where MOD accepts that a particular weapon system has
to be bought BECAUSE it is NEEDED

Let the Army send a proposal for buying the Su 25 and see the reaction

In Normal times alone IAF and IA are indulging in pin pricks at each other

If such a SILLY proposal is sent To MOD and it is shot down by MOD
then IA will become a laughing stock

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not really

Corruption, Extreme amounts, you need to hear some stories about it, it will stupendify you.

This is what USAF is trying with the F-35

We are buying MIG from them in Navy, They seems to be fine..

That is there we cannot do much abt it..

That is USAF not USMC, The best analysis & Study of a Independent fighting forces to fight in all dimension is no better than USMC.

 

[pankaj nema]

With a Jaguar which has longer legs ie more range we can have much more
FLEXIBILITY in REAL Time situations

A Su 25 will have to return ASAP because of its limited combat radius

If 2 Jaguars have taken off on a CAS mission and Ground station informs them of a JUICY target
that has appeared nearby ; 100 km away from their originally intended targets
SAY a convoy of Trucks or missile silos being readied then Jaguars can go attack
the NEW target first as a PRIORITY

Then if some bombs are left then the Jaguars can bomb their original targets and come home

All in a days work

This is what Net work Centric Warfare is ie Targetting on a real Time basis and on the basis
of New and Emerging Priorities

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The FIRST step for purchasing a new weapon system in Indian armed forces is
known as " Acceptance of Necessity " where MOD accepts that a particular weapon system has
to be bought BECAUSE it is NEEDED ? ( ? )

Let the Army send a proposal for buying the Su 25 and see the reaction

In Normal times alone IAF and IA are indulging in pin pricks at each other

If such a SILLY proposal is sent To MOD and it is shot down by MOD
then IA will become a laughing stock

MOD work is well known, MOD is the main culprit for many dead in Army, They also rejected the need for good helmets coz its 6000rs per piece, I would have never bring them in discussion..

Pin Pricking contest and the reason why is posted by in the thread..

Read the thread..

Its silly to get snow scooters of 2 stroke as per MOD, It will take another 3 years to get snow scooter for JAWAN.

Army always is a joke in MOD and always will be..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

With a Jaguar which has longer legs ie more range we can have much more
FLEXIBILITY in REAL Time situations
A Su 25 will have to return ASAP because of its limited combat radius
If 2 Jaguars have taken off on a CAS mission and Ground station informs them of a JUICY target
that has appeared nearby ; 100 km away from their originally intended targets
SAY a convoy of Trucks or missile silos being readied then Jaguars can go attack
the NEW target first as a PRIORITY
Then if some bombs are left then the Jaguars can bomb their original targets and come home
All in a days work
This is what Net work Centric Warfare is ie Targetting on a real Time basis and on the basis
of New and Emerging Priorities

You have no clue abt CAS or Deep penetration Jets so does other things:

Use of turbojets gave Su-25 a maximum speed at low level of 526 knots (975 km/hr), which is far healthier than the 368 knots (682 km/hr) of the thick-wing turbofan-powered A-10. Of course SFC was sacrificed and the short endurance was quoted as one of the drawbacks of the Frogfoot.. Nevertheless, maximum range while carrying the maximum combat load plus two drop tanks is 400 nm (750 km) at low level or 675 nm (1250 km) at altitude. The protective measures of Su-25 represent 7.5% of normal take off weight (some 2415 lb (1095 kg)) which is comparable with A-10's 2887 lb (1310kg).


Unit cost US$11 million