Indian Army Artillery

[AnantS]

@AnantS World record with longest firing range of 48.074 km with HE-ERF BB.

This settles the mystery once and for all. There was no raaakit assisted/VLAP round as speculated by some on Twitter.

Which means with Rocket assisted shell and Ramjet shell ranges would be even more 50 to 60km ++

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Basically don't fall for the false hopium being planted by Twitter shills.They may all say that only ATAGS would win the TGS contract but we all know how this is gonna pan out

even if they do buy atags in huge quantities now, my mood has been half ruined already because of the way in which this whole procurement scenario for artilleries as a whole has gone.

1. we have the most pro-atmanirbhar gov elected who proceeded to make laws as convenient as possible as per known modern Indian history for the procurement of Indian designed and made weapons in general.

2. we have DRDO and private concerns working together to design, manufacture, and test an amazing gun and a series of variants of these guns suited for various needs and deployed on various platforms, testing them in conditions far more demanding and for far longer than even the USA takes (I am familiar with their average procurement and ordering times).

3. We have the money and other support systems in place to make these orders.

4. We even have foreign nations procuring many of these artillery products for their militaries.

It is like keeping track of a problem child who is still living in the basement, does not have responsibility or make money through work, and eventually due to a lot of money and connections you get him to reluctantly join a low-skill job so that the parents can say that 'at least he has a job'.

You should not be wasting so much time procuring such as a system in the circumstances we are in. MANY countries have gone above and beyond when they have gotten an opportunity even a quarter as good as the one we have now. There are no excuses. Even if they order now, the whole circus they played will make anyone have a bad taste in their mouth and be cynical.

Anyway, I will never see the military, especially the procurement arm as anything but our servants/slaves now, the higher the rank, the greater the apathy. They are there to facilitate our nationalist ambitions/goals in economy and security. Any deviation should be pilloried. They are born to fulfill our dreams, not theirs. Although, I did not have much of an admiration for the military other than a decorated tool before, so it is not much of a climb down.

 

[Johny_Baba]

reminder before ATAGS and BRICS and all the atmanirbharta meme and K-9 Vajra, we had a chance to get this done in big numbers,
BHIM SPH

but once NDA of vajpayee era fall down and UPA-1 came in power, those allegations of Denel corruptions and all emerged with NTW-20//Vidhwanshak project and result was outright blackout of that company; long term result was...we all know now

Imagine if BHIM was allowed to happen...

I wish Bharat Forge (Kalyani group) would take an initiative to make Bharat-52 based SPH and an M777 equivalent lightweight artillery etc and so, probably a truck-mounted version too,

i mean from getting GHN-45 Tech and Assembly line etc stuff he's effectively gotten one of the best howitzer design to home, GC-45,
This same GC-45 was base for south african Denel G-5 howitzer that we were trying out on Bhim SPH but due to certain political bakchodi etc stuff it never got actualised and we're stuck with importing-assembling K-2 etc from South Korea

also GHN-45 originally was way much better design than the FH-77 Bofors we got here in late 80s, and all these issues with FH-77 design seems to be further inherited by its derivatives here with Dhanush and ATAGS...giving to these reports coming out and so,

so since we have a better design in hand with Bharat-52 ( GC-45 at core ), i wish Baba Kalyani would take an initiative to make SPH, Truck-Mounted versions and Light Artillery etc sort of derivatives from that.

at least this is easy to reconstruct here bekoze,
cannon on Bhim SPH was Denel one based originally on GC-45
and we now have desi GC-45 here under Bharat-52 (Kalyani brought entire assembly line of austrian GHN-45 = self propelled version of GC-45),
all we need is...intention baki 'raw material' toh hain apne paas.

Bhim SPH was ^this near^ to completion then all sudden 'reports of Denel bribing officials emerged' and it got put under muh bleklist hurr durr - we ended up kopying NTW-20 fork as Vidhwanshak but failed to go that way with Bhim SPH and armed forces kept using Abbot 105mm and ;Chhapre waali; (literally ) M46 Catapults for another decade or so - finally getting SoKorean K-9 Thunder after evaluations in 2012-2014 phase and ordering it in mudi sirkar 1 era...
and now IIT Madras etc developing ramjet propulsion ammo for it etc...
and now there are talks for repeat order of more 100 K-9

Imagine such enthusiasm was shown for Bhim project, we could've trully become atmanirbhar with that but it suffered same fate as all other good stuff here

still as i mentioned in past, i do wish to see revival of Bhim SPH under Kalyani, as in past we were importing main gun turret from Denel, now we have same GC-45 based gun in possession with Bharat-52

It's probably impossible to find a vdo on Bhim SPH going bang bang and showing its features, so putting a vdo of most near thing to that (minus chassey part which is wheeled vehicle here instead of Arjun's tracked one), utilising Denel G5 howitzer as gun in that boxy turret (G5 is again south african fork of Dr. Gerald Bull's GC-45)

 

[zathura98]

well i wish bharat forge and kalyani group grows and get orders from around the globe except india, then only this rotten to the core Mod and army will get a earful from nation.

 

[rvats]

1. Please watch the latest podcast by Lt General Shankar on the artillery status which he's made after the news about ATAGS order and new Towed Gun System (TGS).
2. Key Point 1 - Indian artillery acquisition and preparedness status were in pits during 2004-2010 period. He gives many examples of how things were deliberately allowed to go bad and how 'dalals' (deal brokers) used to roam about the power corridors and corruption ruined everything.
3. Those of us who're old enough to remember the repeated 155/45 trials (unprecedented 3 times) also know that each time, Bofors topped the charts, but induction was not done because the name Bofors was anathema to one political family.
4. Key Point 2 - ATAGS was developed in consultation between IA and the DRDO; IA asked DRDO to see if they can come up with a new gun.
5. Very important -
   1. Target weight was 12 tons
   2. The weight now stands at 22 tons (I know news reports talk about 18 tons). In his words, they could not keep the weight down.
   3. And from the beginning, the quantity proposed by the army was 300 units for ATAGS.
6. My Observation - I've mentioned this on Twitter as well.
   1. We should be happy that IA is ordering a gun which is otherwise on the heavier side as per their specification.
   2. We've always lamented that 'best is the enemy of good' syndrome inflicts our Services.
   3. In this case, we've actually bucked this propensity to weight for a product which meets all the requirements.
7. Key Point 3 - ATAGS will most likely be used in plains while 'lighter systems' like Dhanush and original Bofors will be shifted to mountains.
8. Lt General Shankar is very clear that NO IMPORTS are happening. The TGS will come from domestic stables.
9. Plus, he says we can build the whole of K-9/Vajra or M-777 in India now, if required.

--------

• In my opinion, if you need to understand Indian artillery modernization status, you need to take a holistic view after considering all the programs running in parallel to fill various segments.
• For 155mm segment, we need to consider the numbers happening under Sharang upgrade, Dhanush production & induction, and now ATAGS.
• And see if we can expedite the production of Dhanush leading to faster induction.

 

[Kumaoni]

The Army needs officers like Manekshaw or Sundarji to get everything back on track. There's a lot of smart people in the Army, but they need to be heard as well.. That is the need of the hour, because I have no doubts that our borders with China and Pakistan will go FUBAR in the near and dear future..

Both these Generals are def superior to what we have today, but they are overrated

Guys like Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh, Sagat Singh, BC Joshi, etc had a better impact on the army imo

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

1. Please watch the latest podcast by Lt General Shankar on the artillery status which he's made after the news about ATAGS order and new Towed Gun System (TGS).
2. Key Point 1 - Indian artillery acquisition and preparedness status were in pits during 2004-2010 period. He gives many examples of how things were deliberately allowed to go bad and how 'dalals' (deal brokers) used to roam about the power corridors and corruption ruined everything.
3. Those of us who're old enough to remember the repeated 155/45 trials (unprecedented 3 times) also know that each time, Bofors topped the charts, but induction was not done because the name Bofors was anathema to one political family.
4. Key Point 2 - ATAGS was developed in consultation between IA and the DRDO; IA asked DRDO to see if they can come up with a new gun.
5. Very important -
   1. Target weight was 12 tons
   2. The weight now stands at 22 tons (I know news reports talk about 18 tons). In his words, they could not keep the weight down.
   3. And from the beginning, the quantity proposed by the army was 300 units for ATAGS.
6. My Observation - I've mentioned this on Twitter as well.
   1. We should be happy that IA is ordering a gun which is otherwise on the heavier side as per their specification.
   2. We've always lamented that 'best is the enemy of good' syndrome inflicts our Services.
   3. In this case, we've actually bucked this propensity to weight for a product which meets all the requirements.
7. Key Point 3 - ATAGS will most likely be used in plains while 'lighter systems' like Dhanush and original Bofors will be shifted to mountains.
8. Lt General Shankar is very clear that NO IMPORTS are happening. The TGS will come from domestic stables.
9. Plus, he says we can build the whole of K-9/Vajra or M-777 in India now, if required.

--------

• In my opinion, if you need to understand Indian artillery modernization status, you need to take a holistic view after considering all the programs running in parallel to fill various segments.
• For 155mm segment, we need to consider the numbers happening under Sharang upgrade, Dhanush production & induction, and now ATAGS.
• And see if we can expedite the production of Dhanush leading to faster induction.

It's frankly stupid to think that Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED would invest into an artillery program for an order of mere 300 units.

 

[abingdonboy]

It's frankly stupid to think that Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED would invest into an artillery program for an order of mere 300 units.

They were banking on -1600 units (towed gun requirement from FARP), corrupt mfers in IA/MOD scuppered this plan

 

[abingdonboy]

even if they do buy atags in huge quantities now, my mood has been half ruined already because of the way in which this whole procurement scenario for artilleries as a whole has gone.

1. we have the most pro-atmanirbhar gov elected who proceeded to make laws as convenient as possible as per known modern Indian history for the procurement of Indian designed and made weapons in general.

2. we have DRDO and private concerns working together to design, manufacture, and test an amazing gun and a series of variants of these guns suited for various needs and deployed on various platforms, testing them in conditions far more demanding and for far longer than even the USA takes (I am familiar with their average procurement and ordering times).

3. We have the money and other support systems in place to make these orders.

4. We even have foreign nations procuring many of these artillery products for their militaries.

It is like keeping track of a problem child who is still living in the basement, does not have responsibility or make money through work, and eventually due to a lot of money and connections you get him to reluctantly join a low-skill job so that the parents can say that 'at least he has a job'.

You should not be wasting so much time procuring such as a system in the circumstances we are in. MANY countries have gone above and beyond when they have gotten an opportunity even a quarter as good as the one we have now. There are no excuses. Even if they order now, the whole circus they played will make anyone have a bad taste in their mouth and be cynical.

Anyway, I will never see the military, especially the procurement arm as anything but our servants/slaves now, the higher the rank, the greater the apathy. They are there to facilitate our nationalist ambitions/goals in economy and security. Any deviation should be pilloried. They are born to fulfill our dreams, not theirs. Although, I did not have much of an admiration for the military other than a decorated tool before, so it is not much of a climb down.

BF CEO saying they don’t expect orders for MGS for 7 years says it all.

then you get some clowns coming along and asking why India doesn’t have BAEs, Samsungs, IAIs etc for itself.

watch any defence industry summit panel on YT all the executives are asking for are clear timelines, consistent policies and faith in indigenous solutions aka the bare minimum and these dirty inept clowns in the service HQs and MoD can’t even do that.

and as you say this is the peak, imagine what comes when INDIA/UPA comes back and the dalals are back running the corridors of the MoD and strong arming the defence minister. Parrikar was quite open about the games played against him in the job, just imagine the filthy games that really go on.

world’s largest importer tag is a payday for too many

 

[abingdonboy]

well i wish bharat forge and kalyani group grows and get orders from around the globe except india, then only this rotten to the core Mod and army will get a earful from nation.

No world class OEM exists that doesn’t have massive support from domestic orders, low run production purely for export increases unit costs and makes long term support uneconomical. Where margins are close there’s no way Indian products can compete

 

[abingdonboy]

1. Please watch the latest podcast by Lt General Shankar on the artillery status which he's made after the news about ATAGS order and new Towed Gun System (TGS).
2. Key Point 1 - Indian artillery acquisition and preparedness status were in pits during 2004-2010 period. He gives many examples of how things were deliberately allowed to go bad and how 'dalals' (deal brokers) used to roam about the power corridors and corruption ruined everything.
3. Those of us who're old enough to remember the repeated 155/45 trials (unprecedented 3 times) also know that each time, Bofors topped the charts, but induction was not done because the name Bofors was anathema to one political family.
4. Key Point 2 - ATAGS was developed in consultation between IA and the DRDO; IA asked DRDO to see if they can come up with a new gun.
5. Very important -
   1. Target weight was 12 tons
   2. The weight now stands at 22 tons (I know news reports talk about 18 tons). In his words, they could not keep the weight down.
   3. And from the beginning, the quantity proposed by the army was 300 units for ATAGS.
6. My Observation - I've mentioned this on Twitter as well.
   1. We should be happy that IA is ordering a gun which is otherwise on the heavier side as per their specification.
   2. We've always lamented that 'best is the enemy of good' syndrome inflicts our Services.
   3. In this case, we've actually bucked this propensity to weight for a product which meets all the requirements.
7. Key Point 3 - ATAGS will most likely be used in plains while 'lighter systems' like Dhanush and original Bofors will be shifted to mountains.
8. Lt General Shankar is very clear that NO IMPORTS are happening. The TGS will come from domestic stables.
9. Plus, he says we can build the whole of K-9/Vajra or M-777 in India now, if required.

--------

• In my opinion, if you need to understand Indian artillery modernization status, you need to take a holistic view after considering all the programs running in parallel to fill various segments.
• For 155mm segment, we need to consider the numbers happening under Sharang upgrade, Dhanush production & induction, and now ATAGS.
• And see if we can expedite the production of Dhanush leading to faster induction.

IA again asking for the laws of physics to be broken- 12t for a 155/52 gun? Even ATHOS and DHANUSH-52 are 14-15t, ATAGS has a 25L chamber too. So 17-18t that it will be isn’t unreasonable.

speeding up of Dhanush is a fantasy without larger orders, who orders~100 guns and expects high Production rates?

other than ATAGS what 155/52 gun in india has completed user trails? So it’s either an import or another round of trail circuses for TGS requirement

since bofors the only 155mm guns inducted are 145 M777, 100 K9 and the upgunned Sharangs vs the ~1600 FARP requirement. Regardless of what the situation was like 2010-2014 the ground reality hasn’t really changed materially since.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

When the expected weight of 12 tonnes not met. Army should have asked DRDO to stop further fabrication and asked to reduce weight. Rather they allowed ATAGS to be fabricated and conducted all tests when it simply failed in Weight which they wanted. Even in IT field no one allow this type of bullshit.

 

[abingdonboy]

Less strength than the Pakistani army with 6-8x the budget

https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1706322414395601189?s=46&t=8QPJecNQmmoeL0BRyMQdjg

A ‘nationalist’ govt with a super majority for almost 10 years, a specific self reliance target and this is the result? The Chinese are so lucky their largest regional foes are Indians and not Japanese

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

All you folks forgetting the fact that as along as the Chandigarh lobby is not cleaned up you will see such bullshit requirements and never ending testing saga for indigenous weapon systems . Nothing will change

 

[another_armchair]

The next RFP will probably demand a man portable 155/52 with range that's unobtainium and till that happens, we go with vendor xyz we have shortlisted or better still, a G2G deal that puts all speculation and whining at rest. Hehe

 

[another_armchair]

Anyways, the Bharat-52 weights around 15 tons. Not axle-demolishing heavy.

 

[Johny_Baba]

IA again asking for the laws of physics to be broken- 12t for a 155/52 gun? Even ATHOS and DHANUSH-52 are 14-15t, ATAGS has a 25L chamber too. So 17-18t that it will be isn’t unreasonable.

speeding up of Dhanush is a fantasy without larger orders, who orders~100 guns and expects high Production rates?

other than ATAGS what 155/52 gun in india has completed user trails? So it’s either an import or another round of trail circuses for TGS requirement

since bofors the only 155mm guns inducted are 145 M777, 100 K9 and the upgunned Sharangs vs the ~1600 FARP requirement. Regardless of what the situation was like 2010-2014 the ground reality hasn’t really changed materially since.

this 12t requirement seems to have spun out from original mass of FH-77B Bofors of '80s era because that was ~12.5 some tonne s, and reminder it was 155mm/39 cal design; and how we may have developed border area infrastructure including bridges and all with keeping that one in mind etc;

now coming to available 155mm/52 cal designs even nearing this range; one notable name that comes to mind is Singaporean FH-2000 howitzer which is 13.5t if i remember correctly, in fact it was one of the competitor to Bofors FH-77B 05 in trials back in 2010s, but owning to some scam charges it might have been kicked out of the competition

FH-2000 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Under scanner, firm eyes army tender for guns

The Indian Army has launched a fresh hunt for artillery guns to pack more punch in its deteriorating firepower.

www.hindustantimes.com

so did they write all these mass/weight requirements with keeping FH-77 B05 and FH-2000 in mind back then ?

but even then, Dhanush 155mm/45 cal is ~13t already; not sure how much it would go up in 155mm/52 cal but i guess it surely would not shoot over 15t ; then why even that one is not given fair chance is anyone's guess
probably because the Bofors label and related political consequences and also the reality that despite its marketing as 'indigeneous' product it is about 80 some percent domestically manufactured rest there are some import parts in it (as far as i remember this was the case till 2020, not sure if they have achieved more indiginazion etc and so)

so yeah, it seems like these 2010 era requirements were written around times when some related products were in trial back then but may not relate to our current things much

 

[Suryavanshi]

Less strength than the Pakistani army with 6-8x the budget

https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1706322414395601189?s=46&t=8QPJecNQmmoeL0BRyMQdjg

A ‘nationalist’ govt with a super majority for almost 10 years, a specific self reliance target and this is the result? The Chinese are so lucky their largest regional foes are Indians and not Japanese

Irrelevant notion that 10 years is enough to give a iron grip over the system.
The gormint does not do anything right now because it probably foresees defeat.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Bring out the procurement process of any other strong nation and compare that with India, is ours more retarded?

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Is there any similar 52 caliber artillery in the world which weighs 12 tons? Any way if Army wanted 12 tons then will TGS requirement demand 12 tons?

Some pvt Co will be used to relabel and sell ATHOS as IDDM to fill TGS requirement

what Kalyani 52 ULH weighing 8 tons if weight is so important?