Indian Army Artillery

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SilentKiller

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Scrutator said:
A replacement doesn't have to match all the characteristics of its predecessor, it can be far superior to the other! IA definitely wants ALL guns to be 155/52 (barring the M777, which has a different mission); Dhanush 155/45 is just a stop gap arrangement because the 155/52 guns (both Dhanush and ATAGS) are not fully ready.

There's no logical reason I can think of for orders to be placed (beyond the current 2 regiments that are under production) for Pinaka Mk1. Mk2 should be the way to go. Longer range is better than shorter range.
Click to expand...
I believe india should opt for few 105 mm jeep mounted light guns for RAPID or Airborne operations too..the Kalayani concept of 105 mm Humvee mounted gun was a nice concept. even DRDO/OFB presented a 105mm SPG (on BMP2).
These are the requirements given by army under FARP , plan to get 2700 - 3600 guns in next 15-20 years.
155/39 - Ultla Light - M777 (145)
155/52 - Wheeled - TBD (400)
155/52 - Towed Guns (ATAGS and Dhanush (155/45) (1580, i believe Tata will produce 790 with its own design and Bharat Forge will produce 790 on its own design)
155/52 - Tracked SPG - K9 (100)
155/52 - Mounted Guns - (819 needed) May be we wil go with Nexter or Archer.

I believe there is still space for 105mm guns atleast for RAPID or Para.
also i heard that 180mm motar has mush more impact than 155mm shell, if true we should work on 120mm/180mm wheeled Motar system.

also Pinaka MK1 is meant to replace Grad and MK2 is to complimet/ replace Smerch. So more MK1 (40-65km range) systemd needed over 120mm. Also 120 km range Pinaka Mk2 will not be 200mm rocket system but a 300mm system same as Smerch.
 
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Scrutator

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SilentKiller said:
also Pinaka MK1 is meant to replace Grad and MK2 is to complimet/ replace Smerch. So more MK1 (40-65km range) systemd needed over 120mm. Also 120 km range Pinaka Mk2 will not be 200mm rocket system but a 300mm system same as Smerch.
Click to expand...
Pinaka Mk1 has only 40 km range; Mk2 is supposed to be about 65 kms. Pinaka II (not Mk2) is supposed to be of 120 km range. It's possible I am and others too are messing up the version names!!! If the 65 km ranged version is also called Pinaka Mk1, and all future orders will be of this range then it sounds ok.
 
sthf

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@Scrutator

Not that difficult to understand.

Dhanush is already in production and the units are being handed to the army as we speak. ATAGS is yet to complete it's trials and enter production.

Now coming to Mk1. I already stated that Mk1 are there to replace older Grads. Mk1 is already in production, Mk2 is not. Costs are another reason. Just as army ordered 3000 more Gypsies while the new general service vehicle (Safari) was being selected.

Also, range is just a factor not the entire reason. I repeat Mk1 has sufficient range for its role. Just like Dhanush and M777 have sufficient range for their respective roles.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Operational demands trumps future procurement, every time.
 
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Scrutator

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sthf said:
@Scrutator

Not that difficult to understand.

Dhanush is already in production and the units are being handed to the army as we speak. ATAGS is yet to complete it's trials and enter production.

Now coming to Mk1. I already stated that Mk1 are there to replace older Grads. Mk1 is already in production, Mk2 is not. Costs are another reason. Just as army ordered 3000 more Gypsies while the new general service vehicle (Safari) was being selected.

Also, range is just a factor not the entire reason. I repeat Mk1 has sufficient range for its role. Just like Dhanush and M777 have sufficient range for their respective roles.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Operational demands trumps future procurement, every time.
Click to expand...
45 caliber Dhanush as a stop gap arrangement to fill operational needs is fully understood! (btw...Dhanush 45 didn't really come out of PSQRs but merely what the team could do - and did a great job at that). The 2 Pinaka Mk1 regiments under production is also fully understood. But no firm orders have been placed beyond the 2 regiments under production - and it is those future orders that I feel should be Mk2.
 
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Scrutator

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bengalraider said:
andar ki baat- ATAGS has completed it's trials with flying colours, inculding user trials.
Production process will start next year, they're working our the financials!
Click to expand...
As much as I like to believe that, I am very skeptical. ATAGS has a lot of new systems - all electric drives, MRSI etc. - all of which will need to be put through the standard summer, winter, desert, outer-space, right rope walk etc tests. Maybe the barrel has gone through some good levels of tests - as it is the same as that of Dhanush 155/52 barrel!
 
Adioz

Adioz

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SilentKiller said:
I believe india should opt for few 105 mm jeep mounted light guns for RAPID or Airborne operations too..the Kalayani concept of 105 mm Humvee mounted gun was a nice concept. even DRDO/OFB presented a 105mm SPG (on BMP2).
These are the requirements given by army under FARP , plan to get 2700 - 3600 guns in next 15-20 years.
155/39 - Ultla Light - M777 (145)
155/52 - Wheeled - TBD (400)
155/52 - Towed Guns (ATAGS and Dhanush (155/45) (1580, i believe Tata will produce 790 with its own design and Bharat Forge will produce 790 on its own design)
155/52 - Tracked SPG - K9 (100)
155/52 - Mounted Guns - (819 needed) May be we wil go with Nexter or Archer.

I believe there is still space for 105mm guns atleast for RAPID or Para.
also i heard that 180mm motar has mush more impact than 155mm shell, if true we should work on 120mm/180mm wheeled Motar system.

also Pinaka MK1 is meant to replace Grad and MK2 is to complimet/ replace Smerch. So more MK1 (40-65km range) systemd needed over 120mm. Also 120 km range Pinaka Mk2 will not be 200mm rocket system but a 300mm system same as Smerch.
Click to expand...
105s on jeeps Airborne ops is not a good idea IMHO. Unless you are talking about an all-mobile airborne maneuver force. Currently our airborne forces are pure infantry. They can not maneuver after landing. Better to go for heavy mortars on jeeps. The kind of ranges the enemy will be at are something jeep-mounted mortars will handle better than jeep mounted 105s. The airborne would just need fire-support for defense. They are not likely to go for interdiction fire-missions relying on artillery alone. Interdiction for airborne can be handled by air-support.
And indeed, 180mm mortars pack more punch than 155mm howitzer shells. Larger kill radius.

For Pinaka II, I hope they make it a modular system like the M270.
Would be good if we could get it to fire something like the 300km range ATACMS.


Kunal Biswas said:
About Prototype made by Kalyani Co ..

Honesty, Most comfortable looking seats i ever seen in Indian Army ..

Except Tatra seats ..
Click to expand...
IMHO, with the type of vibrations they have to suffer in a sustained fire mission (like the ones in Kargil) seats like these may not make that much of a difference. (Not to say its bad that they got nice seats)

bengalraider said:
andar ki baat- ATAGS has completed it's trials with flying colours, inculding user trials.
Production process will start next year, they're working our the financials!
Click to expand...
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its time for some MRSI (Multiple Round Simultaneous Impact):-
 
sthf

sthf

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bengalraider said:
andar ki baat- ATAGS has completed it's trials with flying colours, inculding user trials.
Production process will start next year, they're working our the financials!
Click to expand...
Despite the fact I'd give my right nut for it to be true, I am skeptical.

Par aapke munh main ghee shakkar.
 
sthf

sthf

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Scrutator said:
45 caliber Dhanush as a stop gap arrangement to fill operational needs is fully understood! (btw...Dhanush 45 didn't really come out of PSQRs but merely what the team could do - and did a great job at that). The 2 Pinaka Mk1 regiments under production is also fully understood. But no firm orders have been placed beyond the 2 regiments under production - and it is those future orders that I feel should be Mk2.
Click to expand...
No, the Dhanush is not a "stop-gap" arrangement but precisely what army wanted it to be.

Now despite what you or I want, operational requirements are different than future plans. If only two regiments are confirmed then it's well and good. If further regiments are Mk2 then it's bloody excelent.
 
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Scrutator

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sthf said:
No, the Dhanush is not a "stop-gap" arrangement but precisely what army wanted it to be.
Click to expand...
Not all Dhanush is stop gap - but the Dhanush 155/45 is. The Army wanted all NEW artillery guns to be standardized to 155/52 (towed, truck mounted, tracked etc). Dhanush 155/45 came as a welcome surprise to fill operational gaps - but they always pushed Dhanush team to integrate the 155/52 barrel from ATAGS project. M777 (155/39) is a special case - lightweight gun required for quick heli based mobility. There is no specific operational need for a 45 caliber gun. That's the reason only 114 gun orders of Dhanush (155/45) were placed.
 
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rrrajesh.yadav

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