Indian Army Artillery

bengalraider

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The old Bhim had an autoloader, whether the new one will have an autoloader is an open question .the brochure i got at DEFEXPO mentions the specs of the old Bhim only. The new bhim should logically have an autoloader considering it is supposed to be(as per DRDO guys i spoke to) State-of the art.The new bhim is also supposed to have full network interoperability with Indian and american WLR's. A firing range comparable to the old Bhim the capability to fire a whole lotta different types of shells including guided and base bleed rounds. All in a turret armed with a 52 cal 155mm main gun mounted on the top of an arjun hull.
 

Sridhar

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The gun that crippled the equipping of India’s armed forces is “innocent”



“It’s time to understand that the gun is innocent”. That has to be the prize quotation to come out of Delhi’s Defexpo defence show last week. It was made by Anand Mahindra who runs Mahindra & Mahindra, a Mumbai-based tractors-to-software group that is diversifying into defence equipment and is now tendering in India to sell the latest version of a Bofors gun that triggered a major mid-1980s corruption scandal here.
That scandal has hampered the development and equipping of the country’s armed forces for over 20 years. So Mahindra was presumably trying to joke his way out of the political embarrassment of M&M having a joint venture with UK-based BAE Systems, which now makes Bofors guns following a series of takeovers.
155mm Bofors howitzer on the Pakistan border in 1999 (pic The Hindu)

In 1986, the Indian government headed by prime minister Rajiv Gandhi, placed a $1.4bn contract with Bofors of Sweden that led to allegations of Rs64 crore (then about $50m) bribes.
That’s a pitifully small amount compared with today’s massive corruption levels, but the case has reverberated ever since through Indian’s political system and the courts. It contributed to the defeat of Gandhi’s government in 1989 and embarrassed the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty for years after – even though, as Mahindra also said, it has served India well (left, in use during the 1999 Kargil war with Pakistan).
Defence ministers and bureaucrats have been scared to place large sensitive orders, fearing similar bribe scandals.
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That fear has reached crisis proportions under the current defence minister, A.K.Antony, (right) a Congress politician who is so scared of losing his clean reputation (and damaging his Leftist image in his home state of Kerala) that he proverbially tilts at windmills every time there is a whiff of corruption, cancelling more big contracts than he has placed in the past six years and blacklisting potential suppliers.
Mahindra’s remark is specially relevant now because India urgently needs to shake off the Bofors legacy and modernise its armed forces, which are probably the worst equipped of any large country in the world.
Pallam Raju, the minister of state for defence, said at an army seminar last week that history shows there are hardly any examples internationally “wherein a higher technology military power has been overwhelmed by lower technology power in the long run.”
“Defences are obsolete”
Yet a background paper prepared by the Delhi-based PHD chamber of commerce for the army seminar said that “most of India’s ground based air defences are obsolete” and that upgrades of basic artillery equipment were “ten years behind schedule”. The generals attending the seminar didn’t metaphorically blink at such unpatriotic statements – they knew only too well they are true.
The chief of army staff said recently that 80% of India’s armoured tanks are night blind. “That means like the medieval times you fight morning to evening and take rest at night - Pakistan has 80% of tanks capable to fight at night,” says Rahul Bedi, a defence journalist. “Planning and strategic thinking of the Indian Army’s procurement program is in complete shambles. Bureaucrats and politicians are throttling the procurement
process.”
A more academic critique headlined “Arming without Aiming” will be coming soon from the America’s Brookings Institution. Co-authored by Stephen Cohen, a south Asia expert, it argues that India’s arms purchasing has “lacked political direction and has suffered from weak prospective planning, individual service-centred doctrines, and a disconnect between strategic objectives and the pursuit of new technology”.
And Ajai Shukla, a former army officer and now a defence journalist, writing in the Business Standard daily newspaper, this morning estimates that “Antony’s halo” is costing India 125% more than is necessary for half the equipment it buys because of price rises (during delayed contracts) and because tenders sometimes being abandoned in favour of more expensive negotiated deals.
70% bought abroad
India is the world’s largest buyer of defence equipment, with expenditure budgeted at least at $40bn over the next four years. Half of that is on capital expenditure and is likely to rise around 15% in the finance minister’s annual Budget speech this Friday, even though not all of it is ever spent.
At least 70% of purchases have been made abroad for decades, mainly because the generally inefficient and moribund public sector-dominated defence establishment cannot deliver even high technology night vision goggles and modern helmets, let alone fighter aircraft or guns. Until recently, the capable private sector was mostly kept out of doing more than supplying minor components because the defence establishment enjoyed the combined benefits of protected jobs, patronage, prestige, and foreign kickbacks – and because Antony instinctively supports public sector trade unions that do not want private sector competition.
As I wrote last October, the armed forces have been warning the Defence Ministry for years to accelerate orders for urgently needed new equipment that are mired in bureaucratic inertia, corruption, and the manipulations of competing suppliers who trip up each other’s potential orders. (The same applies to equipment needed for the Home Ministry’s internal security).
The latest 'Bofors' - BAE and M&M's FH77 B05

How Pakistan and China must enjoy watching the self-inflicted damage that India does to its own war readiness, relishing the thought that they themselves could not do more in a border war.
Some progress has been made in recent years on improving defence manufacturing, but this has been dismally slow since it was nominally opened up to the Indian private sector in 2002. With a few exceptions such as Tata and Larsen & Toubro obtaining rocket launcher contracts, and L&T building the hull of a nuclear submarine, there have been few major private sector orders.
This will gradually change following the introduction in the past year of a technology transfer-oriented “Buy and Make (Indian)” policy, and the (long drawn out and muddled) introduction of an offset programme, where foreign arms companies have to spend half the value of an order in India. This is pulling foreign defence companies into tie-ups with Indian business such as M&M’s with BAE, but offset contracts worth only Rs8,200 crore ($1.8m) have so far been signed, half with the Indian private sector.
Less progress has been made on speeding up urgently needed defence orders, often because potential losers lobby or bribe the government to change tack. Following intense US diplomatic pressure, a $550m a pending order with Europe’s Eurocopter for 197 modern light helicopters that are urgently needed by the Army was cancelled two years ago after America realised its Bell company was losing. Inexplicably, Bell failed to tender when the contract was offered again.
Europe complains
Last month, Germany’s ambassador to India, Thomas Matussek, complained publicly after a $1.5bn contract for Airbus A-330 multi-role refueling tanker aircraft, made by Europe’s EADS consortium and favoured by the Indian Air Force, was rejected because the finance ministry said the aircraft were too expensive. Matussek alleged ‘”political reasons”, and one does not have to be too much of a conspiracy theorist to sense America’s hand at work again though a Russian Ilyushin was the runner-up in the 2008 tender.
Matussek’s complaint had a wider significance at a time when the US, using clout provided by its nuclear supplies deal with India, is trying to supplant Russia as the country’s biggest arms supplier. India has begun negotiating some contracts through the US government instead of using tenders, partly to enable it to select specific equipment such as Boeing’s C-17 Globemaster heavy-lift aircraft where a $1.7bn order is being negotiated, and partly to avoid the risk of corruption scandals on competitive tendering. This sort of negotiated contract has happened for decades with Russia, but the use of America’s FMS (foreign military sales) procedure is new and is worrying European countries such as Germany, France, and the UK because they risk being squeezed out of key contracts.
So what does India need to begin to turn itself into a state of at least semi-war readiness to cope with potential border wars with China and Pakistan?
First, it needs a defence minister who can shake off the Bofors legacy and cope with kick-backs, whether or not he lines his own and his political party’s pockets. He also needs the political skills, standing and determination to push through quick decisions and play diplomatic games constructively with the US, Russia and Europe so that orders are placed, not cancelled.
Also needed are a prime minister and political leadership who can shake off some of the froth surrounding India’s peace-loving mantra and who are genuinely interested in building up the technological capability, and supporting the manpower, of the country’s fighting forces. Sadly the current dispensation, as it is called in India, does not meet that criteria.


http://ridingtheelephant.wordpress....ipping-of-india’s-armed-forces-is-“innocent”/
 

Sridhar

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12,000 old missiles a bother for army

Josy Joseph / DNA
Wednesday, February 24, 2010 1:18 IST

New Delhi:

Dated weapons are a headache. And the army is beginning to realise it as it looks for ways to dispose off — hold your breath — 12,000 missiles.

The anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), which are now over 20 years old, were originally manufactured by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and were to serve for a decade. The missiles were on a life extension.
“We have decided to dispose them off, but need to figure out how,” said a senior officer at the army headquarters. He said the 12,000 missiles are presently lying in the army’s ammunition depots across the country.
The missiles — Russian Konkurs produced in India under a licence — could still be used during exercises, he said. But that would mean taking the risk of using outdated ammunition. “Who would want to take that risk?” he asked.
The move also comes at a time when an intense debate is building up over the purchase of a new generation of ATGMs. And, for the first time probably, Israelis and Americans are pitted against each other in an army offer to buy weapons.
According to sources, while the army has formally shown interest in the US-made Javelin missiles, a delegation that visited Israel in November had given its thumbs up to much cheaper Israeli Spike missiles.
Army sources said trials of Spike missiles in Pokhran had failed in the past. But it was a “trouble with a particular lot”. Army sources said a newer version of Spike was successfully test-fired when its delegation visited Israel.
US firms Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, who manufacture Javelin, have been trying hard to sale the missile to the army. The missile’s fire power was demonstrated during a recent exercise.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_12000-old-missiles-a-bother-for-army_1351833
 

Sridhar

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'Scam accused firms can take part in acquisition process'
Updated on Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 18:45 IST


New Delhi: Government on Wednesday said it has allowed the seven firms named by CBI in the Ordnance Factory Board scam to take part in the multi-vendor acquisition process, but no tender will be awarded to them unless they are "totally" cleared by the investigating agency.

After the Ordnance Factory Board scam surfaced in May last year, the Defence Ministry had put on hold all its dealings with seven defence firms, including Singapore Technologies and Israeli Military Industries (IMI) and three Indian companies.


"Later it was decided that multi-vendor procurement cases held up at various stages of trials may be progressed further as per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2008," Defence Minister A K Antony said in reply to a Rajya Sabha query.

After the Government's decision, Singapore Technology was allowed to field its artillery gun for field trials for the 155 mm 52 calibre howitzers requirements of the army.

"However, no tender will be awarded to the companies mentioned in the FIR unless CBI investigation clears them totally," he added.

Antony said, "appropriate action" is taken after corruption allegations are received against defence companies.

Asked if defence major BAE Systems was implicated by the UK and the US and the Government was planning to blacklist it, Antony said: "In major purchases, there is a provision under DPP to obtain a declaration that no previous transgression occurred in the last three years immediately before signing the Integrity Pact with any other country that could justify bidder's exclusion from tender process."

http://www.zeenews.com/news606724.html
 

nandu

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India all set for artillery purchases

NEW DELHI (PTI): Remaining without a single purchase of artillery guns since Bofors scandal broke out two decades ago, India has lined up series of procurements of such weapons to bridge the growing gap in the operational preparedness of its Army.

Among the guns it plans to buy soon include towed, wheeled self-propelled, tracked self-propelled and ultra light howitzers.

Defence Ministry sources on Friday said these acquisitions are at various stages of procurement and these guns would strengthen the artillery arm of the 1.13 million strong Army.

While it has scheduled trials for two such weapons in the coming months, the Defence Ministry has ramped up its bid to procure 145 ultra light howitzers for deploying in mountainous terrains from the US.

The Obama Administration has notified the US Congress of its intention to sell the howitzers through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.

The FMS sales to India comes at a time when the country is planning to schedule a trial of Singapore's ST Kinetics 'Pegasus' gun in the next couple of months.

Though the trials, on a 'no cost-no commitment' basis, was to happen last year, it got shelved after the Defence Ministry blacklisted ST Kinetics along with six other companies after the CBI named them in the corruption case against former Ordnance Board chief Sudipto Ghosh.

But the Defence Ministry is changing its policy to allow the trial, but not to award the contract before the CBI case was complete, provided an opportunity to the Army to complete testing the gun and await the outcome of the corruption case against Ghosh.
The Defence Ministry had issued a global tender to 10 firms for the 155mm/39 calibre ultra light guns, but only ST Kinetics had responded with an offer.

Simultaneously, the US too came forward with a proposal to supply BAE's M777A2 guns to India and the process of procurement is in its final stages.

Sources said apart from the ultra light howitzers, the trails for the wheeled self-propelled guns would commence next month in which Slovakian firm Konstrukta and German company Rhienmetall would compete for the supply of 180 guns to India.

India had issued a global tender for the 155mm/52 calibre wheeled self-propelled guns and only the Slovakian and German firms were shortlisted out of the five which received the tenders.

Another trial for the 155mm/52calibre towed guns in which ST Kinetics and United Kingdom's BAE Systems would compete is to take place in a couple of months, after the Singapore firm sought time to bring its guns for the test following damage to the one it was bringing to India during loading.

Under the global tender issued for the towed guns, India had projected that it would buy 400 of them off-the-shelf from the selected firm and another 780 would be manufactured in India through technology transfer to one of the Ordnance Factories.

The fourth procurement would be the 155mm/52 calibre tracked self-propelled guns for which the Army has projected a requirement of 100 units.

The purchase of these tracked guns would be done through a global tender, which is currently under formulation of technical parameters, Defence Ministry sources added.

The Bofors scandal had broken out in 1987 and allegations flew thick and fast that Rs 66 crore was allegedly paid off as kickbacks to politicians for the deal with the Swedish gun maker, leading to the fall of the then Rajiv Gandhi government.

Since then, India has not bought weapons for its artillery units, leading to a major gap and the Army last year projected that it was only 50 per cent battle ready in all critical areas of its fighting arms.

The 2007 report, submitted by the Army to a Parliamentary Committee, had claimed that if procurements started now, it would take about 20 years to bridge the gap and would be fully battle ready only by 2027.

As per the report, the Army's artillery arm was only 52 per cent battle ready at present and it would attain 97 per cent capability by 2027.

Source:brahmand.com
 

bengalraider

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So, what are the Bofors ARCHER's chances?
Really good i must say it is the leader in mounted wepons systems, the only serious competitor is Ceaser. however ceaser has a trump card . when i talked to the Nexter representative at DEFEXPO he indicated that Nexter was ready to incorporate the ceaser system onto any truck chassis that India chose as long as it was a 6x6, 6x8 or 8x8 and could handle the weight of the system. India today has very capable 8x8 and 6x6 platforms available in the domestic market that can carry the load. if ceaser is selected on an indian manufactured platform we would save on costs both initially and in maintenance of the chassis.
 

Anshu Attri

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2. The Dragon Fire system120 mm heavy mortar







 
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Anshu Attri

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3. NEMO Patria Weapons System Oy (PWS) 120 mm unmanned mortar FINLAND







 
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bengalraider

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Am I seeing that right? It's mounted into a WZ551. So PLA already has this system?
@Tarun Nein! the dragon fire is an american system built especially for the marine corps expeditionary forces(still under testing). it is highly unlikely they would give it to the PLA. i believe the vehicle in question is the Renault VAB VTT 6X6.


Anyhoo the NEMO looks very capable!should be possible to mount it on the BMP
even so i would prefer the amos from patria due to the sheer badassery of having not one(yes you read that right) but two 120mm mortars on th same chassis , like the NEMO the AMOS is also modular and can be installed on a variety of platforms.











 
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Rage

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That's the Wiesel-2 mortar from Rheinmettal, mate. I see the flag of the Bundeswehr painted right there on the front-right of the vehicle.

Here you are:

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=3727&lang=3

tarunraju said:
Am I seeing that right? It's mounted into a WZ551. So PLA already has this system?
Not likely. The Dragon Fire is a Yank system that's just completed field trials. The vehicle is Renault's 6x6 VAB VTT, a further development on its predecessor the 4x4 VAB APC:

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-r/35171/renault_vab-vtt_6x6/

Here it is in tow-mode:





Edit: Didn't realize that bengalraider already posted the answer. Thank you dawg.
 
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bengalraider

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Also i am surprised that the IA is not considering the ST SRAMS, it's considerable lighter than comparable systems and has a higher rate of fire than comparable systems as well

Singapore Technologies Kinetics 120 mm Super Rapid Advanced Mortar System (SRAMS) (Singapore), Self-propelled mortar systems

Development
The 120 mm smoothbore Super Rapid Advanced Mortar System (SRAMS) was developed as a private venture by Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK). It was first revealed in late 2001 and development was completed late in 2006.To allow it to be installed on lighter platforms it incorporates an advanced recoil system that has reduced the peak recoil to 10 tonnes when firing a 120 mm standard mortar bomb with maximum charge 9.When firing a 120 mm standard extended-range (ER) mortar bomb with maximum charge 8, peak recoil is below 18 tonnes. According to STK, this feature allows SRAMS to be installed on a much wider range of tracked and wheeled vehicles such as the AM General High Mobility Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV).According to STK, this light system weight allows for helicopter transportation into operations traditionally inaccessible to normal armoured personnel carrier (APC) mounted 120 mm mortars.Although the 120 mm SRAMS was first revealed as far back as 2001 and development was completed in 2006, it is understood that by the latter date it had already been ordered by the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF).The 120 mm SRAMS deployed by the SAF has been integrated onto the rear of the STK Bronco All Terrain Tracked Carrier (ATTC) chassis which is used in large numbers by the SAF for a wide range of battlefield roles and missions.The 120 mm SRAMS also forms part of the AGRAB (Scorpion) 120 mm Mobile Mortar System (MMS) developed from early 2006 by the International Golden Group of the

Description
According to STK, SRAMS can be customised at a high rate of fire of up to 18 rounds per minute. This is achieved due to installation of a semi-automatic loading device that takes the 120 mm projectile from the lower part of the mortar up to the muzzle where it is automatically loaded.On conventional 120 mm mortars, the mortar bomb normally takes several seconds to reach the bottom of the tube, as the trapped air has to escape from the small gap between the tube and the mortar bomb as it slides down the tube.On SRAMS, a special breech valve has been incorporated into the bottom of the barrel. As the bomb travels down, the trapped air is released. When the bomb reaches the lower part it closes the valve and automatically fires.The forged-steel smoothbore barrel is 1.8 m long and is fitted with a unique blast diffuser to enhance user safety. This allows a significant amount of high-pressure gas to escape through intermediate chambers of the diffuser before the mortar bomb leaves the barrel. This reduces blast overpressure by a considerable amount.When carrying out sustained-fire missions, mortars can become very hot and there is always the danger of a cook-off. The in-bore barrel-cooling system of SRAMS allows high-pressure air and water mist to be injected through the breech valves. This cools the barrel with the actual cooling cycle being synchronised with the firing cycle to achieve effective cooling.The mortar system has powered elevation limits from +40 to +80°.





http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes...d-Advanced-Mortar-System-SRAMS-Singapore.html

We wouldn't even need specialized vehicles for this baby, we could just mount these onto ashok leyland or tata 6x6's ; even the mahindra AXE and we would be good to go.
 
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Rage

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^^ I agree. The ST SRAMS has a high rate of fire, as well: upto 10 rounds sustained r-o-f per minute. But it can only handle standard 120mm, 120 ER rounds and improvised rocket-assisted mortars. And I think the Army is looking for ERFB-BB, EFP and HE/HE-frag rounds as well.

The other obvious issue is calibre: The Army is looking specifically to procure 155mm/52-caliber systems under the FARP. The OFB also manufactures the E1 120 mm mortar, which recently got an improved version stated to have a maximum range of 10+ kms. with 13.2 kg HE-rounds, compared to ranges of 9 to 13 km (assisted ammunition) for the ST SRAMS.
 
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tarunraju

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@Tarun Nein! the dragon fire is an american system built especially for the marine corps expeditionary forces(still under testing). it is highly unlikely they would give it to the PLA. i believe the vehicle in question is the Renault VAB VTT 6X6.
Ah, so that's where the Chinese stole WZ551's design from. Thanks.
 

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