Indian Army Artillery

[shuvo@y2k10]

i wonder how many years do these [MOD EDIT] need to get some decent howitzers. if the IA is serious
about "cold start doctrine"or "two front war" then does it take 24 years to procure a single piece of howitzers. in 1986 there was a need to procure about 2000 howitzers -of it only 410 was procured.in 24 years time there is a 5 fold increase in our gdp and we only have a requirement of only 2814. instead of going around and spending billions of dollars on unneccessary downrated us equipments like c17,c130js and p8's we desperately need to equip our strike corps with huge amont of artillery firepower(inclding mlrs) and better air defence systems.

 

[EagleOne]

Bofors ghost stalls ammo shopping

New Delhi, July 13: The army's trials slated this month for a nearly Rs 15,000-crore order for towed long-range heavy artillery guns have been stalled because the new avatar of the Swedish gunmaker Bofors has emerged as the only competitor.

The Bofors FH77B05, now owned by BAE Land Systems, and the Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK) iFH 2000, were the only two guns in the competition for the 155mm/52calibre howitzers.

This is the third time since last summer that the field trials have been deferred. "The trials are not taking place this month. Now we have to wait for the winter," an army source told The Telegraph.

The army has now asked the ministry of defence for directives on how to proceed with its artillery modernisation that is already six years behind schedule.

But the government has been tiptoeing around the issue because, while STK has been blacklisted following a CBI investigation, the whiff of Bofors in a Congress-led government after the row in the 1980s — when the Swedish firm was alleged to have paid Rs 64 crore in kickbacks — is enough to make A.K. Antony's defence ministry swoon.

Spokespersons from STK were not available for comment. BAE Land Systems spokesperson Guy Douglas said: "We are ready to participate in the trials as we have been from the beginning."

This is the second time this year that the trials for the towed guns have been stalled. The winter trials, scheduled to be held in Kargil in February, were deferred after the STK requested for a postponement because its gun was damaged during shipment.

Both the guns have to fire ammunition supplied by the Indian Army in trials in the Pokhran range in Rajasthan in peak summer and near Kargil in peak winter.

The Indian artillery guns' competition is one of the most keenly contested and is watched closely by global defence contractors. The artillery modernisation programme, which involves procuring a mix of towed, ultra-light and wheeled/ tracked guns, is estimated to run into Rs 70,000 crore over 10 years.

With the BAE gun now the only one in the fray, the defence establishment will need to decide whether to go for the Pentagon's FMS — foreign military sales — route (because BAE Land Systems is headquartered in the US) or ask for bids again. While FMS will make for faster acquisition, rival bidders allege that the system lacks transparency.

But while a re-bidding will get more competitors into the fray, it will mean starting all over again and even more delay in modernisation. India has not added a single new piece of heavy artillery to its arsenal in more than 20 years.

India and the US are also engaged in finalising an FMS transfer of 10 C-17 Globemaster III Boeing strategic airlifters for the Indian Air Force through FMS. The trials for the aircraft were concluded in Agra and in Ladakh last month.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100714/jsp/nation/story_12681695.jsp

 

[Kunal Biswas]

i wonder how many years do these [MOD EDIT] need to get some decent howitzers. if the IA is serious
about "cold start doctrine"or "two front war" then does it take 24 years to procure a single piece of howitzers. in 1986 there was a need to procure about 2000 howitzers -of it only 410 was procured.in 24 years time there is a 5 fold increase in our gdp and we only have a requirement of only 2814. instead of going around and spending billions of dollars on unnecessary down rated us equipments like c17,c130js and p8's we desperately need to equip our strike corps with huge amont of artillery firepower(inclding mlrs) and better air defence systems.

I agree to some extend to @shuvo@y2k10 statement, though wont call C17s down rated but its very true that our strike crops need VERY urgent up-gradation..

Heavy Equipment of strike forces..

Arty: Max no are of 130mm M46
MRLS: Max Grad 122mm
Tanks & APC: Mainly72s and few have T-90s, BMP-1/2..
Airdefence: Mainly consist of rusting SA-8 Gecko & few outdated SA-13 "Gopher", Very few Tunguska..

 

[prateikf]

it would be better if mr. antony starts building catapults to fire coconuts from his native kerala should another war break out with the chinese or the pakistanis. without any modern artillery the catapult and trebuchets would be the only weapons with the indian army. this congress led UPA govt. is hell bent on deferring the artillery deal ever since it came to power in 2003. first it blacklisted denel on flimsy charges, cancelled the bhim self propelled project, cancelled the nalanda ammunition factory, banned singapore technologies the list is endless. only had the NDA been in power what a powerful artillery force we would have had- with bhim, g6 howitzer etc. but today we have one of the world's weakest and obsolete artillery force. pak's artillery is way ahead of us.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

We did get Smerches and developed Pinaka while all this was going on and soon Pinaka 2 should be coming out. It is true every artillery deal since Bofors has been a fiasco but for some reason the goverment dosen't see the urgency??

 

[EagleOne]

this going to be some thing political ....with US continuously saying in coming Obama visit to India :India will have 5-10 billions worth of defence deals this might be one of it

 

[prateikf]

yes we did get smerch and pinaka but just in small quantities. just about 80 pinakas and 64 smerch. it's such a small number. but just look at the shortfall in howitzers. the army needs at least 3000 howitzers of various kinds-towed, tracked, self-propelled etc. besides rockets are too expensive and can never be a substitute for howizers on the modern battle field. we desperately need new howitzers.

 

[pavanvenkatesh]

heard that the trails for RT competition has AGAIN been stalled
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100714/nation.htm#5

The much delayed purchase of crucial artillery guns, which will replace the existing lot of around 20-year-old Bofors guns in the Indian Army's arsenal, has been stalled yet again.

This is the fifth time since 2002 that the process has hit a roadblock due one reason or the other, seriously impinging upon the Army's capability to fire at the enemy.

The latest hurdle: Only one bidder was remaining in the race and the Defence Ministry does not allow purchases in case there is only one vendor selling the equipment
The latest hurdle is on the ground that only one bidder was remaining in the race and the Ministry of Defence does not allow purchases in case there is only one vendor selling the equipment.

Sources in the Army confirmed today that the scheduled trials of the 155-mm guns had been stopped.

The Army has reportedly informed the Ministry of Defence and asked it to find a way out as the artillery guns are needed immediately.

Sources said in case the ministry saw an exigency, it could opt to buy the guns directly through the foreign military sales route.

BaE-Mahindra and the Singapore technologies-Punj Lloyd were in the race to supply around 1,580 guns. Sources in the Army said one of the conditions was to ensure that the guns could also fire the ammunition produced in India. Singapore technologies wanted some more time to re-calibrate its gun to adapt to the Indian ammunition, sources added. On the other hand, as the BaE guns owed their parentage to Bofors, there was no problem with those guns on that count, they added.

Separately, sources pointed out that the CBI, in a communiqué last week, to the Ministry of Defence, had sought that Singapore Technologies Kinetics and three other foreign firms should be blacklisted. The ministry would go by the CBI advice, sources said. This was another factor behind stalling the trials of the guns, they added.

At the start of June, Defence Ministry sources had indicated that 155-mm gun would be purchased immediately.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

it would be better if mr. antony starts building catapults to fire coconuts from his native kerala should another war break out with the chinese or the pakistanis. without any modern artillery the catapult and trebuchets would be the only weapons with the indian army. this congress led UPA govt. is hell bent on deferring the artillery deal ever since it came to power in 2003. first it blacklisted denel on flimsy charges, cancelled the bhim self propelled project, cancelled the nalanda ammunition factory, banned singapore technologies the list is endless. only had the NDA been in power what a powerful artillery force we would have had- with bhim, g6 howitzer etc. but today we have one of the world's weakest and obsolete artillery force. pak's artillery is way ahead of us.

We did get Smerches and developed Pinaka while all this was going on and soon Pinaka 2 should be coming out. It is true every artillery deal since Bofors has been a fiasco but for some reason the goverment dosen't see the urgency??

this going to be some thing political ....with US continuously saying in coming Obama visit to India :India will have 5-10 billions worth of defence deals this might be one of it

yes we did get smerch and pinaka but just in small quantities. just about 80 pinakas and 64 smerch. it's such a small number. but just look at the shortfall in howitzers. the army needs at least 3000 howitzers of various kinds-towed, tracked, self-propelled etc. besides rockets are too expensive and can never be a substitute for howizers on the modern battle field. we desperately need new howitzers.

Let me give you a rough Idea of A single Strike corp..

1 STRIKE CROP have 6 DIVISIONS each Div have +5000 troops..
I wont give the no of equipments though few no like 100 Pinakas and 100 Boforce cant even support a single Strike crop..
And we have 3 of them and another 2 in consideration on northeast sector ( Mountain Infantry are way ill equipped than normal Infantry based in Punjab )

 

[SHASH2K2]

Let me give you a rough Idea of A single Strike corp..

1 STRIKE CROP have 6 DIVISIONS each Div have +5000 troops..
I wont give the no of equipments though few no like 100 Pinakas and 100 Boforce cant even support a single Strike crop..
And we have 3 of them and another 2 in consideration on northeast sector ( Mountain Infantry are way ill equipped than normal Infantry based in Punjab )

How can we even think about COLD strike if our strike Corp is so ill equipped. Cold strike is purely based on numerical and technical superiority of our Strike corp . Unfortunately we have none and yet we dream of implementing COLD start . Kudos to Our Defence minister .
:angry_1::angry_1::angry_1::angry_1:

 

[sayareakd]

Foreign guns are ok, but what about the 105 mm gun on BMP by the OFB, that weapon is great for cold start it will be accompany tank formations, both BMP and 105 mm gun is being made by OFB with the range of 17 km and host of other featurs

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8gXQngrI7x8/S3qly6gzSzI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/FgM70uhmI0Q/s1600-h/16022010909.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8gXQngrI7x8/S3qk_hykOfI/AAAAAAAAAOA/VcJWHBevvzU/s1600-h/16022010907.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8gXQngrI7x8/S3uMKItna3I/AAAAAAAAAV4/lcsMce3JE7s/s1600-h/16022010906.jpg

i strongly think that IA should get as many these guns as OFB can made, till big guns arrives.

 

[sayareakd]

these light guns will be good for chines border too.........

 

[youngindian]

DSCA notifies US Congress of howitzer sale to India


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/S...es+US+Congress+of+howitzer+sale+to+India.html

 

[prateikf]

"Rs 8000 cr artillery gun tender might fail again"
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/07/bae-mahindras-apprehend-retendering-for.html

 

[ajtr]

FMS again?????????????????

 

[sayareakd]

better build our own gun..........

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Gov need to understand that Indian Army cannot fight a war sitting inside a trenches without the support of superior or same category gun which are operational within enemy arty!!

better build our own gun..........

I guess we already have T0T of 155/45cal gun barrels from soltam, and we do have the experience of making 105 guns, why still we don't have any projects for 155mm guns??

 

[sayareakd]

Kunal dont underestimate our babus and politicians and some other elements non one had offer them what they wanted therefore they re dies the tender. Those guns should have been procured on emergency basis, but they are not showing any hurry.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Soltam Up-gradation Kit ( http://ofbindia.gov.in/units/index.php?unit=ofc&page=my_3&lang=en ) of 155mm/45cal used on both major Indian Guns..

1. Bofors 155/39cal to 45CAL

2. M46 130mm TO 155/45 CAL

Note the barrels, they are same..
But, Both Guns showed problems with the kit and the projects were closed with few 155mm/45cal operational....


Now having the kits of 155/45cal we just need to make the rest of the structure ( Very easy Job )..
If drdo made this gun than it can replace all M46 in our Arty Regts..

 

[prateikf]

[email protected]
The above is our esteemed minister's email id. Perhaps we should start an campaign to get the artillery deal through. otherwise who knows we may even have a repeat of the 1962 debacle. i did send an email to our minister asking him to speed up the procurement of desperately needed artillery guns.