Indian Army Artillery

Master Chief

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Bad Decision to Import Towed Artillery Gun

The Indian Army has done it again; it has placed the locally made artillery gun (ATAGS) on back burner and has issued a RFI to purchase a towed gun under 15 tons in weight.


The Indian Army hates local stuff, no matter how good it is! One quick reason given is weight of the ATAGS is a ton and half greater than arbitrarily set weight limitations of 15 tons. Although the Army knows that ATAGS has a greater range than any other gun which will participate in this tender……. Shame on the Army as well the civil MOD who is a full participant in this stupidity. Now we know why ATAGS was undergoing such a long trial and evaluation process. It was trying to look for possible defects in order to reject it. Kalyani, TATA and L&T and DRDO must be stunned at this development. Now this RFI process will take at least five years and then it will be re-tendered at least three times and emerging winner will be no better than ATAGS…… Shame on them again.

Don‘t you see the artificial rejection ten years back of highly upgraded Arjun tank in favour of T-90. The rejection of Arjun was based on 4 tons extra weight due to, too many improvements requested by the Army which added weight. It was flimsily argued that Indian rail and road bridges cannot take that extra weight. Now the argument for Indian made artillery is same that it is ton and half heavier and harder to make turn in the mountains; another flimsy argument to favor imports.

Our Atamnirbharta has become a laughing stock.
So, it looks like ATAGS order will be for around 250 systems.. Any further orders might be for ATAGS MGS.
 

Master Chief

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Bharat 52

They should try to export to US in huge numbers, since UKRAINE is gobbling up US artillery systems, and US needs as many systems as it can get its hands on to cater to the scenario, of a NATO-Russia war in the future..
 

jai jaganath

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jai jaganath

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yes but also wanted the longer range too. IA has to pick one not both. Both are mutually exclusive at this point right now.
Point is they are squared and countered from every single side there exists no logic fir this move but if they are going forward then understand how powerful Chandigarh lobby is
 

WolfPack86

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As Army puts in request for towed artillery guns, Israeli ATHOS is back in race for mega deal

In its request, Army specifies weight of gun system should preferably be less than 15 tons. This brings Israeli firm Elbit in reckoning as indigenous ATAGs are well over 18 tons.

New Delhi:
The Indian Army has issued a fresh Request for Information (RFI) to acquire a 155mm/52 caliber towed gun system for modernising artillery regiments as part of a plan drafted in 1999.

However, the RFI opens up a new avenue to Israeli firm Elbit whose Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) was in the reckoning for a mega contract from the Indian Army for over a decade.

This comes even as Indian firms Kalyani Group and TATA have collaborated with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which was used for the ceremonial firing in Independence Day at the Red Fort.

Issued 20 December, the RFI notes that the weight of the gun system “be preferably less than 15 tons”. And this clause is why the Israeli firm, which has a tie up with Adani Group, is back in the race for supplying the ATHOS to the Indian Army.

Given that the ATHOS weighs less than 15 tons while the ATAGS is well over 18 tons, industry sources see the new RFI as an opening for the Israeli weapon system.

The 155mm x 52 caliber towed artillery gun figured in the first negative list of defence imports. While the embargo was to kick in from December 2020, the cut-off date for this specialised gun was subsequently changed to December 2021.

But, a rule was brought in which allowed armed forces to import defence equipment in certain circumstances even if it figures in the negative import list.

The Israeli gun made it to the negative list because the DRDO was working on an indigenous version of towed 155 mm/52 calibre howitzer – ATAGS.

The history of ATHOS
The process for acquiring towed guns began in 2001 as part of the Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which was drawn up in 1999.

Multiple requests for proposal (RFPs) were issued since then, with Elbit along with France’s Nexter participating in the last RFP issued under the UPA government.

The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of the remaining 1,180 guns by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process.

While RFIs are issued to request information from suppliers about goods or services, RFPs are used in a bidding process to solicit offers for a project.

In March 2019, following what was meant to be an exhaustive ‘Field Trial Cum Evaluation Process’ spread over several years, which saw several ups and downs, Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder (L1).

However, the DRDO went on record to oppose any import plans, contending that ATAGS was better than ATHOS and is the gun of the future.

The Army, which backs the ATAGS programme, pitched for 400 of these guns (for 20 regiments) to be procured from Elbit to “overcome operational voids in the medium artillery in high altitude area along the northern borders”, citing the tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

As reported by ThePrint, the Israel firm then wrote to the Ministry of Defence stating that in case, it preferred to acquire only the first 400 towed guns, the related cost corresponding to TOT can be deducted from the total contract price.

In the letter, Elbit Systems had offered the TOT for the future 1,180 guns as an option for India, at the same cost as mentioned in the commercial offer made.

Elbit also said it has finalised the approach and strategy to achieve 70 per cent indigenisation within the contract of the first 400 towed guns, starting from the first set of guns.

The ATHOS is tailored to the special requirements of the Indian Army, it said, adding that it has invested tens of millions of dollars in the design and development of the gun in accordance with Army requirements and in the field trials.

The defence sources said Elbit also promised to supply the guns much earlier than the contract delivery schedule — the first six within 10 months from contract signing, and an additional six within 14 months.

All the remaining guns were promised to be delivered according to an accelerated delivery schedule, not later than 54 months from contract signing, instead of the 72 months stipulated in the draft contract.

In its communications with the Indian defence establishment, Elbit said the ATHOS will end up being an indigenous gun — mass produced, assembled and integrated in India.
 

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Bad Decision to Import Towed Artillery Gun

The Indian Army has done it again; it has placed the locally made artillery gun (ATAGS) on back burner and has issued a RFI to purchase a towed gun under 15 tons in weight.


The Indian Army hates local stuff, no matter how good it is! One quick reason given is weight of the ATAGS is a ton and half greater than arbitrarily set weight limitations of 15 tons. Although the Army knows that ATAGS has a greater range than any other gun which will participate in this tender……. Shame on the Army as well the civil MOD who is a full participant in this stupidity. Now we know why ATAGS was undergoing such a long trial and evaluation process. It was trying to look for possible defects in order to reject it. Kalyani, TATA and L&T and DRDO must be stunned at this development. Now this RFI process will take at least five years and then it will be re-tendered at least three times and emerging winner will be no better than ATAGS…… Shame on them again.

Don‘t you see the artificial rejection ten years back of highly upgraded Arjun tank in favour of T-90. The rejection of Arjun was based on 4 tons extra weight due to, too many improvements requested by the Army which added weight. It was flimsily argued that Indian rail and road bridges cannot take that extra weight. Now the argument for Indian made artillery is same that it is ton and half heavier and harder to make turn in the mountains; another flimsy argument to favor imports.

Our Atamnirbharta has become a laughing stock.
Personally speaking, this is the one thing I dislike about the Army, they are always mostly reluctant to induct indigenous systems but will welcome imported products with open arms. I think the airforce is better than the Army when it comes to "indigenisation" & Indian Navy is the best in this regard, that is why Indian Navy is my most favourite of the three services in this regard. Also Army & Navy have the highest and least share of defence budget out of the three services respectively and IN is putting a lot of that budget that it gets into Indian systems (ships, missiles, aircraft etc) which personally I find is something we need to appreciate the Navy for.
 

Hari Sud

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Indian Army is prepared to withstand criticism to order to get Israeli ATHOS gun. Weight and price are excuses, also the Army forgets the range of 48 km for ATAGS. Nobody has been able to point out the cause of barrel failure in ATAGS trial. It is most likely the faulty ammunition but the Army is hell bent on Israeli gun hence would not stop finding faults. The whole idea is to kill the ATAGS.

Before you buy; retire the testing officer who are misleading the testing. Also look carefully at Indian Bofor and other guns and do not get mislead into ATHOS.

 

samsaptaka

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Who is this guy ? What is his sauce except 'trust me vro' ...
What the eff is kadi ninda doing....this RFI should be cancelled and ATAGS should be forced down the throats of these fat ass UN army gernails .
M777 barrel burst - faulty OFB ammo not the fault of imported gun
ATAGS barrel burst - need to redo all trials, huge setback.... meanwhile we need a quick replacement.... import ATHOS !

If I were Baba Kalyani I would get a personnel meeting with NaMo and give him an ultimatum either you do real service to aatmanirbhar or else become a slave to imports.
 

samsaptaka

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What you thought, army ko option Doge to army khus hogi , aree nai army tumhare options ko sabotage karegi .
I am kinda thinking the same. We should not give options to IA and force things down their throats...do away with L1 and instead select 2-3 designs from pvt and psu companies and have a competition and select the winner....RFI should be reviewed by expert panel and illogical shit should expunged from it.
 

samsaptaka

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Political will is there. How many times does Modi/GoI need to talk about atmannirbharat? Modi has personally inaugurated Aero india and DefExpos declaring this as the intent. Everything is being pushed from the top down but without the services buying in this isn’t going to happen

orders are where abstract policy/ideas meet the road. It isn’t the job of civilians to draft SQRs, the first time civilians get involved in the process is when the file is moved from the service HQ to MoD AFTER evaluations have occurred and recommendations made by the uniformed personnel

all these guys know what’s expected of them, in their lexicon they understand the commanders’ intent but are wilfully playing these games with only one desired outcome.
I think I had said this before...the armed forces are THE MOST colonialised and de-racinated institution in Bharath and hence inherently believe that anything foriegn has better quality and if its being used by the white man it has to be excellent . Couple this with corrupt Chandigarh Lobby and career gernails out of touch with reality and you have the perfect poisonous breed of traitors willing to destroy domestic MIC and fund their fat cushy retirements. I can only hope this govt will ignore this RFI and force the Import Army to use ATAGS
 

samsaptaka

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. I think the airforce is better than the Army when it comes to "indigenisation
Oh really ? hohohohahahaha....The same IAF which tried its best to kill Tejas just like HF24 Marut
 

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Oh really ? hohohohahahaha....The same IAF which tried its best to kill Tejas just like HF24 Marut
Tbh, Not every service has been 100% supportive of indigenous weopons but I generally consider IAF better than the Army in regards to indigenisation, the airforce has given orders of 100+ units of Tejas (Mk-1 & Mk-1a both, are committing to induct AMCA & Tejas Mk-2 in future etc). Navy is best in this regard like I already said in past. Not a fan of IA at all in regards to indigenisation.
 

abingdonboy

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I think I had said this before...the armed forces are THE MOST colonialised and de-racinated institution in Bharath and hence inherently believe that anything foriegn has better quality and if its being used by the white man it has to be excellent . Couple this with corrupt Chandigarh Lobby and career gernails out of touch with reality and you have the perfect poisonous breed of traitors willing to destroy domestic MIC and fund their fat cushy retirements. I can only hope this govt will ignore this RFI and force the Import Army to use ATAGS
Colonised in culture for sure (look at their traditions and terminology)

but in these things I think it all comes down to $$$, literally.

remember the countless scams under UPA, these guys didn’t just evaporate post-2014. It would be beyond naive to assume everything is above board now and motivations are entirely transparent.

the ATHOS rumours refused to die and here we are a few years later with an RFI tailor Made for it despite all the progress ATAGS has made.

at this point I’m more disgusted by the PMO for letting these things play out like this, if it’s apparent to us then it must be to them but instead just like with MRFA and P75I the senior most civilian leadership are playing the role of mute spectators to these games which is implicit or explicit condoning such behaviour
 

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