Indian Army Artillery

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Okabe Rintarou

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The excalibur round has performed very well i ukraine. bodes well for us since we can use it both from m777 as well as k9.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1586139647759077376

Basically any stationary tank or SPaG is toast.Not even t-90m level tank can survive.Chinese armour columns on the narrow mountain roads should be easy.
And what about Chinese hitting us with their guided arty munitions? In any case, ISTAR is the most important component.

View attachment 179824
No need sir, let this thing be inducted in service
We will save a lot on forex
Will be a while before we reach Excalibur levels.

Krasnopol?
No. Kanpuropol. Its Indian.
 

The Shrike

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AUSTERLITZ

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The trend that we see is mass mechanization across the board.From infantry to artillery.Reviewing the war in ukraine and lessons from ladakh standoff ,army understood without mechanization(except in very broken mountain terrain) we are essentially an obsolete force.We even saw infantry on electric bikes for broken terrain.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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The trend that we see is mass mechanization across the board.From infantry to artillery.Reviewing the war in ukraine and lessons from ladakh standoff ,army understood without mechanization(except in very broken mountain terrain) we are essentially an obsolete force.We even saw infantry on electric bikes for broken terrain.
Mechanization can only occur with a commensurate increase in logistics and repair units. Indian Army has around 345 Light or Mountain Infantry Battalions. Their strength lies in the fact that they are less dependent on logistics and less of a logistic strain. How protected their mobility will need to be depends as a case by case basis on their tasking. The mechanization you speak of can be carried out to following levels based on threat perception and tasking:-
LevelCapabilityUpgradeVehicle solution
1Complete movement ability restricted strictly to the rear areasFull upgrade with unarmoured mobilityStallion Mk IV and Gypsy
2+
Perform limited recce in Tactical Battle Area (TBA) for much larger formation of troops
+
Provide longer range small scale reinforcement and communications in TBA
+
Provide ability to quickly respond to peacetime skirmishes (Very Important)
Partial upgrade with Protected Infantry Mobility PlatformsMahindra ALSV, Kalyani M4 and TATA QRFV, IPMV (WhAP) in addition to Stallion Mk IV and Gypsy
3+
Provide long range large scale reinforcement and communication in TBA
+
Perform limited maneuver in TBA
+
Hold much longer frontline
Full upgrade with Protected Infantry Mobility PlatformsMahindra ALSV, Kalyani M4 and TATA QRFV, IPMV (WhAP)
4+
Perform almost full scale maneuver in TBA
+
Limited ability to penetrate thin enemy defences and invade enemy rear areas when enemy reserves have already been committed elsewhere
Full upgrade with Wheeled APCs (similar to Stryker BCT of US Army)WhAP family derivatives in configurations of APC, ICV, Mounted Gun, Mortar carrier, etc. (except IPMV)
5+
Perform full scale maneuver in TBA in concert with armour
+
Penetration and maneuver in enemy rear areas
Full upgrade with tracked ICVFICV or BMP-2
^REMEMBER each level adds significantly to additional logistic and maintenance burden along with requiring higher CAPEX and OPEX

Almost all of Indian Army's Light and Mountain Infantry Battalions have already achieved Level 1. Recently Army has started deploying Level 2 at least at the Chinese front. The piecemeal acquisition of Kalyani M4, TATA QRFV and IPMV that has us folks on DFI so irritated is just a precursor to a larger order of Protected Infantry Mobility Platforms (we already know about the large order of 1300 Mahindra ALSV vehicles).

Current acquisitions are being used to create company-sized Quick Reaction Forces for Div sized formations. This is basically limited rollout of level 2. This helps provide good recce and skirmish rapid response capability. Long range small scale reinforcement means reserves can be placed further away from the TBA, enhancing their security while also increasing coverage of the reserves. And the same can be used to provide gradual large-scale reinforcement in TBA by moving one company at a time, piecemeal.

So now we know that IA is looking to go at least level 2. What remains to be seen is how large the orders for these Protected Infantry Mobility Platforms will get and based on that we will know if IA plans to go:-
  • Level 2 across China front
  • Level 2 across China and Pak front
  • Level 3
Level 4 seems unlikely for now, but maybe they could go Level 4 for some units against Pak in the plains and deserts while going Level 3 against China?



In applying lessons from the Ukraine war, we must first realize the differences between those battlefields and the battlefields our Army is going to face. For one, we have a much higher troop concentration (both Indian and enemy) on our fronts than those in the Russo-Ukrainian war. Then there are differences in terrain. And a lot more, but these are all topics for the Russo-Ukrainian war thread. So let us first form conclusions there and then bring those lessons here, instead of derailing this thread with OT posts about Russo-Ukrainian war.

(Oh the irony, I am posting about infantry mechanization in Arty thread). Obligatory comment about arty mechanization: IA should order more ATAGS MGS and less ATAGS towed. I mean they have already modified the original Field Arty Rationalization Plan (FARP) by asking for Kalyani's 105mm MGS. Why stop there? When FARP was formulated, India had no indigenous artillery industry offerings, now we have virtually every single type of Arty developed in India. FARP should no longer limit IA's plans.

Eeeeeeeeeee.
We can rig the mountains for land slides
I remember IA and IAF did do that in Kargil, didn't it? Limited effect on target.
 
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omaebakabaka

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Okabe Rintarou

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Is this laser guided via drone or gps/glonass? I wonder how good is our own navic in terms of precision and being jam proof....beidou is almost global in comparison.
GPS/NavIC guided but one line makes me think that they also want SAL guidance in addition to that. NavIC is good in the torrid zone (heard one gentleman say its better than GPS, which is more tuned for temperate zones). Sauce:-
Only 4 Irnss are working for navigation 3 has been either not working or faulty

View attachment 179175
Also 5 no of geo navigation satellites approved for geo constellation. And 7 more Irnss to be launched to extend range of navic which is 1500 km now and proposed to be 3000 in future
I had no idea that satnav system performance degraded when going off the latitude range they are designed for. I still don't understand completely how this works (something to do with signal attenuation? or satellite orbits and therefore position?). So he says that GPS is tuned to temperate region and GLONASS is tuned to polar region and so NavIC was created for torrid zone? But doesn't that make most Precision Guided Munitions inaccurate in the torrid zone since they mostly rely on either GPS or GLONASS?
.
I have a rudimentary understanding of how satnav works and I do vaguely remember reading how its predecessor systems (like LORAN hyperbolic navigation system) were only accurate upto a couple thousand km. But I thought that was a limitation of ground-based systems and satnav didn't have the same issue. What exactly causes it?
.
Also, I had no idea NavIC = IRNSS + GAGAN to cover torrid and temperate zone in same package! I thought NavIC was just operational name of IRNSS.
.
NavIC as a tracking service is being offered as a sovereign solution to all countries, so instead of the servers being in India, we are offering them the entire equipment in their own country so data resides with that country and not with India, unlike GPS, GLONASS, etc. That could be a USP for NavIC in many cases.
.
After feedback from users, ISRO is planning to add a third signal to NavIC, instead of just the two standard and precision services. Infact, he says that both the existing signals are precision services, which I don't understand.
.
For corporate users, NavIC is already a cheaper solution than GPS and the savings in operational costs are more than 50% (sometimes doubles or triples profits as well) after their company consults on how to leverage NavIC for the job. Examples like Jindal steel, mining , Chennai port, etc.
.
Users abroad are also being offered some demonstrations, trials ongoing in Africa, Indonesia and one study done for Italy as well. In future, they expect their GPS-NavIC integrated solutions to spread in Australia, Middle East and ASEAN. But why Australia though? Isn't that in temperate region?




But its capability is degraded right now due to 3 out of 7 satellites failing (not sure but likely a failure of the atomic clock. earlier sats had imported atomic clocks that failed in orbit, newer ones have indigenous atomic clocks). In terms of precision and jam proof, I think it'll be similar to GPS once the next batch of IRNSS satellites are placed in orbit with an additional band.
 

Fatalis

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Mechanization can only occur with a commensurate increase in logistics and repair units. Indian Army has around 345 Light or Mountain Infantry Battalions. Their strength lies in the fact that they are less dependent on logistics and less of a logistic strain. How protected their mobility will need to be depends as a case by case basis on their tasking. The mechanization you speak of can be carried out to following levels based on threat perception and tasking:-
LevelCapabilityUpgradeVehicle solution
1Complete movement ability restricted strictly to the rear areasFull upgrade with unarmoured mobilityStallion Mk IV and Gypsy
2+
Perform limited recce in Tactical Battle Area (TBA) for much larger formation of troops
+
Provide longer range small scale reinforcement and communications in TBA
+
Provide ability to quickly respond to peacetime skirmishes (Very Important)
Partial upgrade with Protected Infantry Mobility PlatformsMahindra ALSV, Kalyani M4 and TATA QRFV, IPMV (WhAP) in addition to Stallion Mk IV and Gypsy
3+
Provide long range large scale reinforcement and communication in TBA
+
Perform limited maneuver in TBA
+
Hold much longer frontline
Full upgrade with Protected Infantry Mobility PlatformsMahindra ALSV, Kalyani M4 and TATA QRFV, IPMV (WhAP)
4+
Perform almost full scale maneuver in TBA
+
Limited ability to penetrate thin enemy defences and invade enemy rear areas when enemy reserves have already been committed elsewhere
Full upgrade with Wheeled APCs (similar to Stryker BCT of US Army)WhAP family derivatives in configurations of APC, ICV, Mounted Gun, Mortar carrier, etc. (except IPMV)
5+
Perform full scale maneuver in TBA in concert with armour
+
Penetration and maneuver in enemy rear areas
Full upgrade with tracked ICVFICV or BMP-2
^REMEMBER each level adds significantly to additional logistic and maintenance burden along with requiring higher CAPEX and OPEX

Almost all of Indian Army's Light and Mountain Infantry Battalions have already achieved Level 1. Recently Army has started deploying Level 2 at least at the Chinese front. The piecemeal acquisition of Kalyani M4, TATA QRFV and IPMV that has us folks on DFI so irritated is just a precursor to a larger order of Protected Infantry Mobility Platforms (we already know about the large order of 1300 Mahindra ALSV vehicles).

Current acquisitions are being used to create company-sized Quick Reaction Forces for Div sized formations. This is basically limited rollout of level 2. This helps provide good recce and skirmish rapid response capability. Long range small scale reinforcement means reserves can be placed further away from the TBA, enhancing their security while also increasing coverage of the reserves. And the same can be used to provide gradual large-scale reinforcement in TBA by moving one company at a time, piecemeal.

So now we know that IA is looking to go at least level 2. What remains to be seen is how large the orders for these Protected Infantry Mobility Platforms will get and based on that we will know if IA plans to go:-
  • Level 2 across China front
  • Level 2 across China and Pak front
  • Level 3
Level 4 seems unlikely for now, but maybe they could go Level 4 for some units against Pak in the plains and deserts while going Level 3 against China?



In applying lessons from the Ukraine war, we must first realize the differences between those battlefields and the battlefields our Army is going to face. For one, we have a much higher troop concentration (both Indian and enemy) on our fronts than those in the Russo-Ukrainian war. Then there are differences in terrain. And a lot more, but these are all topics for the Russo-Ukrainian war thread. So let us first form conclusions there and then bring those lessons here, instead of derailing this thread with OT posts about Russo-Ukrainian war.

(Oh the irony, I am posting about infantry mechanization in Arty thread). Obligatory comment about arty mechanization: IA should order more ATAGS MGS and less ATAGS towed. I mean they have already modified the original Field Arty Rationalization Plan (FARP) by asking for Kalyani's 105mm MGS. Why stop there? When FARP was formulated, India had no indigenous artillery industry offerings, now we have virtually every single type of Arty developed in India. FARP should no longer limit IA's plans.


I remember IA and IAF did do that in Kargil, didn't it? Limited effect on target.
Sir ji, your knowledge on these matters and topics is really amazing. I always feel delighted after reading all of your response.
.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Sir ji, your knowledge on these matters and topics is really amazing. I always feel delighted after reading all of your response.
.
Do note, I am talking with my limited understanding of the subject. Its not like I have studied these topics formally, so viewer discretion advised. Members like @Bhadra @rvats and @mist_consecutive are more informed on these things.
 

omaebakabaka

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GPS/NavIC guided. NavIC is good in the torrid zone (heard one gentleman say its better than GPS, which is more tuned for temperate zones). Sauce:-




But its capability is degraded right now due to 3 out of 7 satellites failing (not sure but likely a failure of the atomic clock. earlier sats had imported atomic clocks that failed in orbit, newer ones have indigenous atomic clocks). In terms of precision and jam proof, I think it'll be similar to GPS once the next batch of IRNSS satellites are placed in orbit with an additional band.
Ya, for local India and near India coverage 6 and a spare in two inclinations is probably precise enough. As far as jamming goes, its probably possible in areas closer to China with their huge space network in Yunnan or somewhere close in their south west? Hmm, all sats carry atomic clocks right? 3 fail for that reason would be a batch defect or sabotage
 

omaebakabaka

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The excalibur round has performed very well i ukraine. bodes well for us since we can use it both from m777 as well as k9.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1586139647759077376

Basically any stationary tank or SPaG is toast.Not even t-90m level tank can survive.Chinese armour columns on the narrow mountain roads should be easy.
Well that really depends on whether gps gets blocked and even works accurately in that terrain, laser may be less optimal but excaliber atleast few versions do have ins guidance? Its accuracy seems to 4m with 92% success rate in real world...so bases and command points are toast for sure if with in range but requires good intel iobviously
 

jackhammer2

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View attachment 179824
No need sir, let this thing be inducted in service
We will save a lot on forex
If that was my bottle, meri mummy ne mujhe jaan se maar dena tha.

(query for everyone) What advantage does gps guided rounds hold over laser guided ones ? Interms of direct infantry support laser guided sounds like a much better solution.
 

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