Indian Army Artillery

[abingdonboy]

.Lets hope we get these guns in 1000s to guard our northern borders with the chinese ...

There's no need to have them in those quantities, around 800 such guns (a mix of M777 and domestic ULH most likely) will be more than sufficent.

 

[mayfair]

I thought that M777 production line had closed, so how do we get 500 guns?

I would rather we go for Bharat Forge's desi ULH for our additional needs.

 

[xeaaex]

I thought that M777 production line had closed, so how do we get 500 guns?

I would rather we go for Bharat Forge's desi ULH for our additional needs.

What are the specifications of BFs ULH and how do they fare with M777 in terms of weight, range and money.

 

[mayfair]

I think BFs ULH is still under development.

Their artillery page does not provide any details on the specifications etc.

http://www.kalyanigroup.com/ArtillerySystems.asp

There are a few reports that it is supposed to weigh less than 4500 kgs and make extensive use of Titanium and Aluminium. And that Kalyani exhibited a ULH prototype at DefExpo 2016.

But I would assume they are still some distance away from having a system ready for testing. I also suppose they are fully focussed on ATAGS to get a firm toehold in the defence industry.

 

[PD_Solo]

I thought that M777 production line had closed, so how do we get 500 guns?

Approx $50M were pumped to keep the line open awaiting our order.

 

[abingdonboy]

I thought that M777 production line had closed, so how do we get 500 guns?

I would rather we go for Bharat Forge's desi ULH for our additional needs.

Closed because no new orders were forthcoming but the tooling was kept in place and only 25 guns will be coming to the IA in a fully assembled condition, the remaining 120 (+500) will be assembled in India meaning the old (US) production line doesn't require any further investment.

As for the BS ULH, it is only a protoype right now and by the time it is ready for induction 100s of M777 can/will be in service with the IA.

 

[mayfair]

Closed because no new orders were forthcoming but the tooling was kept in place and only 25 guns will be coming to the IA in a fully assembled condition, the remaining 120 (+500) will be assembled in India meaning the old (US) production line doesn't require any further investment.

So Mahindra will be getting all the tooling then? Either the assembly line or at least the blueprints being transferred to India?

But then if I understand correctly, BAE will not be transferring the barrel technology to India because of US laws to that prohibit the transfer of the advanced Titanium alloy tech that went into making them. Hence if Mahindra wishes to supply the guns with same specifications that those that will be initially flown over from the US? They'll have to import the barrels (and other such tech and components that BAE would not transfer) en masse and rig all of it together here.

But then, if the M777 line is shut, then how will they crank up the barrels for OUR M777s?

 

[Chinmoy]

So Mahindra will be getting all the tooling then? Either the assembly line or at least the blueprints being transferred to India?

But then if I understand correctly, BAE will not be transferring the barrel technology to India because of US laws to that prohibit the transfer of the advanced Titanium alloy tech that went into making them. Hence if Mahindra wishes to supply the guns with same specifications that those that will be initially flown over from the US? They'll have to import the barrels (and other such tech and components that BAE would not transfer) en masse and rig all of it together here.

But then, if the M777 line is shut, then how will they crank up the barrels for OUR M777s?

M777 assembling unit is closed down. But the subcomponent builders are still hot and running. How else you think US army is getting their part of spares. BTW barrel of M777 is manufactured by Watervliet Arsenal and its still up and running.

 

[abingdonboy]

So Mahindra will be getting all the tooling then? Either the assembly line or at least the blueprints being transferred to India?

But then if I understand correctly, BAE will not be transferring the barrel technology to India because of US laws to that prohibit the transfer of the advanced Titanium alloy tech that went into making them. Hence if Mahindra wishes to supply the guns with same specifications that those that will be initially flown over from the US? They'll have to import the barrels (and other such tech and components that BAE would not transfer) en masse and rig all of it together here.

But then, if the M777 line is shut, then how will they crank up the barrels for OUR M777s?

The final assembly will be in India only, the sub-assemblies (including the barrel) will come from the various sub-contractors, you don't need ToT for AIT (assemble, intergrate and test) which is what Mahindra will be doing. For that all relevent tooling and expertise will be given to Mahindra.

 

[Shaitan]

M777 assembling unit is closed down. But the subcomponent builders are still hot and running. How else you think US army is getting their part of spares. BTW barrel of M777 is manufactured by Watervliet Arsenal and its still up and running.

Actually know people that work there, the India order was a big boost for them.

 

[captscooby81]

Why to waste time doing assembleinindia instead we can simply import them directly from USA ..How ever we need to rely on them for the spares as the crucial parts ToT is not going to happen with this current deal ..We could save some time in getting them directly instead baby feeding mahindra to learn assembly of Guns ..Or we could have partnered with KSSL they already made some prototype artillery for this assembling bolt screw tightening job

The final assembly will be in India only, the sub-assemblies (including the barrel) will come from the various sub-contractors, you don't need ToT for AIT (assemble, intergrate and test) which is what Mahindra will be doing. For that all relevent tooling and expertise will be given to Mahindra.

 

[abingdonboy]

Why to waste time doing assembleinindia instead we can simply import them directly from USA ..How ever we need to rely on them for the spares as the crucial parts ToT is not going to happen with this current deal ..We could save some time in getting them directly instead baby feeding mahindra to learn assembly of Guns ..Or we could have partnered with KSSL they already made some prototype artillery for this assembling bolt screw tightening job

The final assembly plant simply doesn't exist in the US anymore on a scale that would allow it to fulfil this order (5 guns/month), right now they are cobbling together to deliver 2-3 guns/year. So India had the option to invest its money in creating jobs in the US to build back up its final assembly plant's capacity OR to invest the money in India, get some jobs and expertise built in India as well as having full through-life support be provided by an Indian entity. This way Mahindra may be able to leverage its experise later down the line for other projects.

The goal is to build up India's defence industry, is it not?

As far as timelines go, there won't be much difference between setting up the Mahindra assembly plant and final assembly line in the US.

 

[captscooby81]

I was just wondering why to give it to mahindra when we have Kalyani group who are already building or built Arty guns prototype ..They also have expertise in ammunition's and Arty guns which would have been one stop solutions ..

Well fair enough we public may know little information on why the govt went with Mahindra they would have done the due diligence and taken a wise decision only ..

The final assembly plant simply doesn't exist in the US anymore on a scale that would allow it to fulfil this order (5 guns/month), right now they are cobbling together to deliver 2-3 guns/year. So India had the option to invest its money in creating jobs in the US to build back up its final assembly plant's capacity OR to invest the money in India, get some jobs and expertise built in India as well as having full through-life support be provided by an Indian entity. This way Mahindra may be able to leverage its experise later down the line for other projects.

The goal is to build up India's defence industry, is it not?

As far as timelines go, there won't be much difference between setting up the Mahindra assembly plant and final assembly line in the US.

 

[Chinmoy]

I was just wondering why to give it to mahindra when we have Kalyani group who are already building or built Arty guns prototype ..They also have expertise in ammunition's and Arty guns which would have been one stop solutions ..

Well fair enough we public may know little information on why the govt went with Mahindra they would have done the due diligence and taken a wise decision only ..

Errrr............ Actually its BAE who partnered with Mahindra to build it for India. Govt just asked the vendor to tie up with an Indian firm and BAE went for Mahindra instead of Kalyani.

 

[abingdonboy]

I was just wondering why to give it to mahindra when we have Kalyani group who are already building or built Arty guns prototype ..They also have expertise in ammunition's and Arty guns which would have been one stop solutions ..

Well fair enough we public may know little information on why the govt went with Mahindra they would have done the due diligence and taken a wise decision only ..

It is entirely up to the OEM (BAE) who they decide to tie up with,the GoI plays no part in that process other than conducting an audit of the proposed JV before giving a contract.

Kalyani are focusing more on their own R&D and likely wouldn't want to become just an assembler for a foreign company but a OEM in their own right with their own portfolio.

 

[abingdonboy]

Nexter systems at Eurosatory 2017:




Pretty much entire focus was on Indian requirements although I think the Trajan towed arty system doesn't stand a chance in India now thanks to Dhanush amd ATAGS

 

[Bornubus]

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[Cutting Edge 2]

The first batch of the 155mm/52 calibre tracked self- propelled (SP) gun -- K9 VAJRA-T -- will be delivered later this year and the entire supply will be made within next 42 months.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...00-howitzers-to-army/articleshow/58784792.cms

 

[shankyz]

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/indian-artillery-defence-procurement-howitzer-guns/story/1/17370.html


Watch out! India set to have world's most fearsome artillery

Our surveillance, target acquisition and retaliatory capabilities are climbing a 'never before' path.

POLITICS

| 5-minute read | 23-05-2017

LT-GEN PR SHANKAR (RETD)



6

Total Shares

A few days ago, the arrival of the first two 155mm M777 ultra-light howitzers on Indian soil was hailed by the media. This was preceded by signing of a contract for the purchase of 100 self-propelled tracked 155 mm howitzers from L&T.

On Republic Day, the indigenous 155mm Dhanush gun and the indigenous ATAGS (advanced towed artillery gun system) were paraded on Rajpath.

These moments are a source of pride for old gunners like me. Clearly, the transformative path of Indian artillery is a visible and palpable reality.

As things unfold we will have multiple capabilities across the tactical, operational and strategic spectrum. In future, artillery will be the mainstay of India’s combat capabilities, which will deter its adversaries. It will be one of the most fearsome artilleries of the world.

Our adversaries will have to seriously think before they attempt any misadventure. More importantly, we will be a truly “Made in India” artillery with the most critical technologies being indigenous.

The Make in India and self-reliance dream of Prime Minister Narendra Modi is being realised. The full import of this will be lost if one does not understand the larger picture.

The troika of 155 mm guns which are on the verge of induction into the Army have ranges varying from 30-38 km, giving us great reach. The 155mm 45 calibre Dhanush gun system being produced by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is fully indigenised. It is undergoing user exploitation in the deserts and high altitudes.

It should go into full scale production soon. It is a cutting-edge top of the line gun system based on the Bofors platform. The 155mm 39 calibre M777 ultra-light howitzer, procured from the US on government-to-government basis, is a lightweight gun with high air and ground mobility.

It gives India huge operational and strategic capability in mountainous terrain. The gun is going to be assembled in the country by Mahindra Defence Systems. In the times to come, spares for this gun are poised to be made in India for the international market. That gives us the capability to make this gun fully in India in the future.

The 52 calibre tracked self-propelled K9 Vajra gun system is to be produced in India by M/s L&T in their Talegaon unit in collaboration with their Korean partner. For the first time, we will be building a major self-propelled gun hull in India.

The desi Bofors.

This gun will not only give major capability fillip to India’s armoured formations, but also to our defence industry. The ATAGS which is under development by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is showing a lot of promise.

Besides guns, tremendous strides are being made in rockets and missiles. Brahmos, the long-range cruise missile, is already being manufactured in India as a joint venture between India and Russia.

The strategic value of this system came from a reaction from China when their media raised concerns. Extension of range of the missile is being evaluated already through trials.

The second system is the DRDO-designed Pinaka rocket system. This is a marvel of Indian design, development and manufacture. This devastating system is being manufactured by M/s Tatas and L&T and ammunition is being manufactured by the OFB.

Again, very importantly, the DRDO has a strong programme underway to extend the range of this rocket. Initial trials have been encouraging. Both systems will change certain perceptions of our adversaries. They need to look out.

The “Swati” weapon locating radar (WLR) is a fully indigenised WLR- designed and developed by DRDO and manufactured by BEL. It has capabilities better than the US-made ANTPQ37. It has entered service and is doing well.

In the field of unarmed aerial vehicles (UAVS), the DRDO designed Rustam 2, a medium altitude long endurance aircraft, which has made its maiden flight. The Army has already started talking to IITs for design and development of short range UAVS. Results will be forthcoming in due course. Our surveillance, target acquisition and retaliatory capabilities are climbing a “never before” path.

The Make in India story of artillery will not be complete without mention of the strides made in net centricity. Thanks to the efforts of DRDO and BEL. The Shakti system, a major force multiplier which is wholly indigenous, is getting rapidly deployed. It integrates firepower sans barriers in a formation in a networked manner. Simultaneously, an indigenous battlefield surveillance system is poised for entry. Very few countries have these net-centric capabilities.

In fact, the Make in India story of artillery also encompasses self sufficiency of ammunition. Multiple sources have been identified and developed for indigenous procurement of fuses, shells and charge systems with high indigenisation content. The days when a letter of a COAS made an appearance in the media, bemoaning shortage of artillery ammunition, are of the past.

When viewed holistically, it emerges that in the Army, Indian artillery is spearheading the Make in India dream of our nation. The drive of Manohar Parrikar, former defence minister, needs a special mention. His clarity of thought and push ensured such capability enhancement. However, hisabsence is now hampering many programmes. It needs the attention of the PM.

Notwithstanding, we are proud of the Made in India artillery. Gunners are eagerly looking forward to their preordained role of destroying the enemy when needed. A net assessment of this story indicates that these developments herald an era of strategic independence for India.

They will enhance self-sufficiency, provide alternate options should an odd programme fail, save foreign exchange, create jobs and even have export potential in the future. Needless to say, they will add huge capability to national defence preparedness.

This capability has been realised due to the dedicated team effort of a lot of people - present and past. The defence ministry, the Army, defence PSUs, DRDO, OFB and the industry acting in unison as one team have had a huge hand in this story.

It was all about learning from mistakes and having faith that we can do it despite pitfalls; which were many. Last but not the least, what has been outlined is the tip of the iceberg.

For the full iceberg to surface, India needs to stay the course and guard against disruptive thinking if its dreams are to be realised.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

[TPFscopes]

Any information about revival of DRDO BHIM SPH.