Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[SilentKiller]

Unfortunately, It should have been in service by now ..

Even now its outclass BMP-2/3 ..

True but some of are officers, generals, politicians prefer making some money or are subscribed to Defence magazines and this system doesn't looks that good to them.
Its high time to fully replace BMP 2/3.....

 

[sgarg]

I agree that Army lacks a good IFV. Tank force is fine. The tanks have been bought in requisite numbers. But IFVs are needed for manoeuvre warfare. If the strike divisions have to be successful, better IFVs and self-propelled artillery is necessary.

As of today army lacks both good IFVs and SP guns. So Army is good for defensive posture, but offensive capability is limited.

However the big IF is the capability of our great opponent Pakistan. My analysis is that Pakistani front-line units (25%) are quite good but if these collapse, the rest 75% will simply fold. The offensive power is not limited to tanks. The aircrafts - both fighters and helicopters are key components where India is now maintaining a huge lead. Even jeep-borne troops can kills a column of tanks or field guns if personnel carried anti-tank weapons are effective, which are now. So the equations have changed and do not favour offensive mindset of Pakistanis.

The fact remains that Pakistani army can suffer a humiliating defeat (rout like Ukraine forces) in the next war, due to modernization of Indian military.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

@Austin @Twinblade

Of course, the 1000 tank order may just be a rough figure, the actual number could be an odd number above 1000 or below 1000. That makes the total T-90 order to be around 2000, give or take ~50 tanks.

To keep it short,
310 T-90S tanks delivered by 2006.
330 tanks delivered by 2009.
347 tanks delivered by 2013.
235 tanks to be delivered by 2015-16.
418 tanks to be delivered by 2019-20.

354 T-90MS direct purchase by 2018 if the order is made this year.

Anything you guys want to add or remove?

if we can secure some 2000 t90 tanks from the above info the question that bugs me is why MOD or some section of army reluctant to phase out the old T72's and if lucky we can even make money by selling refurbished T72 tanks to countries like Vietnam what do you think

 

[p2prada]

if we can secure some 2000 t90 tanks from the above info the question that bugs me is why MOD or some section of army reluctant to phase out the old T72's and if lucky we can even make money by selling refurbished T72 tanks to countries like Vietnam what do you think

1000+ T-72s are being phased out and replaced with the T-72. We can't really sell those tanks because their service life is over. Nobody will touch them.

The remaining 1500-1600 tanks are being upgraded with new engines, electronics and guns. They should be able to survive for another 10 years, maybe 15. By then FMBT will replace the old T-72s.

We need 3800 tanks in the inventory.

We won't make much money by selling old tanks anyway.

 

[SilentKiller]

1000+ T-72s are being phased out and replaced with the T-72. We can't really sell those tanks because their service life is over. Nobody will touch them.

The remaining 1500-1600 tanks are being upgraded with new engines, electronics and guns. They should be able to survive for another 10 years, maybe 15. By then FMBT will replace the old T-72s.

We need 3800 tanks in the inventory.

We won't make much money by selling old tanks anyway.

Can't we convert some of the T72's into Heavy APC's or Support vehicles?? Israel does it with older tanks.
FMBT has been scrapped if i am correct, DRDO will work on improvements of arjun only as of now. Reason being there is limited tech for FMBT specs in world too.
as we are going to produce 118 MK2's, govt can increase their count to 500 and during this time DRDO can come up with MK3.

 

[Austin]

@Austin @Twinblade

I was trying to assess new numbers for T-90s in the IA. So, let me know what you guys think about this.

2001, we signed a deal for 310 tanks.
India Signs Deal to Buy 310 Russian T-90 Tanks | News | The Moscow Times

2006, we signed a deal for 330 tanks.
India to buy 330 T-90S tanks from Russia | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

2007, we signed a deal for 347 tanks.
..:: India Strategic ::..

That's a total order of 987 tanks on paper until 2008.

IA mentioned they wanted 1000 tanks in India.
Russia to supply India with T-90 tanks - News - World - The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

As far as I know, the first 310 tanks were inducted by 2006 and the third order by 2013. Avadi manufactured the third order of 347 tanks by themselves which was the first indent for 300+ tanks from the army. I will leave the second order of 330 for later.

So, that's 1000-347 = 653 tanks pending from indigenous production.

Then Shukla wrote this article.
Broadsword: Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank



Here they were talking about the last order for 1000 tanks out of which 300+ were delivered.

So, we definitely know about the 310 tanks and we know about the 347 tanks. But I am trying to fit the second order for 330 tanks somewhere. Were half of them delivered by Russia, all of them by Russia. And if they were delivered, when was that? We know that the 330 tanks were an emergency purchase because Avadi couldn't start T-90 production in time due to ToT issues.

From Shukla's article,


So we can bet some of the 6 new regiments for the 347 new tanks are being raised today.

Considering this,
(I read an interview where they said it is 85% now)

It is likely that this order for 347 were produced indigenously, with deliveries starting in 2009.
First indigenously built T-90 S rolls out - The Hindu

So, by 2009 we already took delivery of ~700 tanks (310+330) and got the first 10 out of 347 from Avadi.

Naturally, with the ending of the first tranche orders, the army approved a second indent for 235 tanks.
India has approved the manufacture of 235 T-90 main battle tanks under Russian license 1909131�-�Army Recognition

That takes the number from 987 to 1222 tanks. And that leaves a pending order of 418 tanks. These 235 tanks may be in production today.

And at 140 tanks per year. The 235 T-90s should be ready by mid 2015. So what do you think?

Apart from this, MoD approved a new T-90MS contract for 354 tanks.
Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard News

So, total number would be 310+330+347+235+(418)+354 = 1994 tanks.

Of course, the 1000 tank order may just be a rough figure, the actual number could be an odd number above 1000 or below 1000. That makes the total T-90 order to be around 2000, give or take ~50 tanks.

To keep it short,
310 T-90S tanks delivered by 2006.
330 tanks delivered by 2009.
347 tanks delivered by 2013.
235 tanks to be delivered by 2015-16.
418 tanks to be delivered by 2019-20.

354 T-90MS direct purchase by 2018 if the order is made this year.

Anything you guys want to add or remove?

I dont think we are ordering the T-90MS but more like more 354 T-90 for deployment in NE , most of T-90 will be upgrade to a standard package as proposed by Army and something which was posted iirc it includes AC , APS , Power System for silent operation , Indian Built Communication system and Netcenricity.

Most likely the tanks would be upgunned with 125mm gun 2A46M-5 to fire new Long Rods of Sivnets-1 and older Mango and DRDO APFSDS.

The ERA will be Indian DRDO one so we wont see the Relikit system and we wont see the new Kalina FCS of T-90MS.

 

[p2prada]

Can't we convert some of the T72's into Heavy APC's or Support vehicles?? Israel does it with older tanks.

We plan to use the T-72s until the end of their meaningful life. The FICV project will deliver future APCs for us. Just modifying older tanks to APCs would see objections from the companies working on the FICV.

FMBT has been scrapped if i am correct, DRDO will work on improvements of arjun only as of now.

FMBT will progress as planned. It has not been scrapped. CVRDE has already started the design phase of the new engines. Being a strategic project we don't know what's happening with the rest of the project. The army has put a gag order on all related labs. So until MoD reveals it in the Parliament we just have to clutch at straws.

as we are going to produce 118 MK2's, govt can increase their count to 500 and during this time DRDO can come up with MK3.

Production of 118 Arjun Mk2s will take 8 years to finish with 5 years marked for delivery. There is no scope for increasing the numbers as long as the T-90 project is not complete. We currently have the capability to make 20-30 Arjuns a year. So we will have the 118 Arjuns only by 2022. FMBT will be ready for production by then.

 

[p2prada]

I dont think we are ordering the T-90MS but more like more 354 T-90 for deployment in NE , most of T-90 will be upgrade to a standard package as proposed by Army and something which was posted iirc it includes AC , APS , Power System for silent operation , Indian Built Communication system and Netcenricity.

Most likely the tanks would be upgunned with 125mm gun 2A46M-5 to fire new Long Rods of Sivnets-1 and older Mango and DRDO APFSDS.

The ERA will be Indian DRDO one so we wont see the Relikit system and we wont see the new Kalina FCS of T-90MS.

That's some interesting development. Is that the upgrade planned for the first 600 odd T-90s also? The gun and the ERA?

I'm sure BEL can deliver India-specific electronics. Any information whether they plan to fit a radar on the T-90?

 

[Austin]

Without the new Gun they wont be able to fire longer APFSDS at higher chamber pressure , The gun 2A46M we use on T-90 is the same we first conducted the trial on since mid 90's since then there was atleast 2-3 gun models seen on T-90 2A46M-4/M-5 that has quite a few improvements including chrome plating , higher chamber pressure and LRF

As far as ERA goes I think its logical that we would use DRDO develop ERA and standardise on Upgrade T-72 and T-90.

There was an interview with DGMF that gave some details on proposed upgrade for T-90 and that what I remember he said.

 

[p2prada]

Without the new Gun they wont be able to fire longer APFSDS at higher chamber pressure , The gun 2A46M we use on T-90 is the same we first conducted the trial on since mid 90's since then there was atleast 2-3 gun models seen on T-90 2A46M-4/M-5 that has quite a few improvements including chrome plating , higher chamber pressure and LRF

As far as ERA goes I think its logical that we would use DRDO develop ERA and standardise on Upgrade T-72 and T-90.

There was an interview with DGMF that gave some details on proposed upgrade for T-90 and that what I remember he said.

2A46M4 is meant for the T-80. It would be great if the army opts for the 2A82 instead.

Any idea if they have chosen an APS for both T-72 and T-90? If they are making one for Arjun then we may see this system on the T types too I suppose. We may eventually see a lot of DRDO developed gear on the T types; APS, AC, ERA, APU, TI, BMS, radios and assorted electronics.

 

[bhramos]

 

[cobra commando]

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Army Tenders for BMP-1 ICV Reengining with Indigenous 400+ HP Automatic Transmission Powerpack

 

[p2prada]

Please read Press Information Bureau English Releases

The takeaways from this article:

1. "As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer)."

Is the same done for T-90. Doubt it. Nobody should advise band-aid approach, buy a defective equipment and then keep on patching it.

Yes, the same was done for T-90. The only difference is Arjun failed repeatedly and trials had to be conducted repeatedly until it cleared. Even in 2008, the Arjun's engines failed 4 times in just one run. T-90 cleared trials the first time without any problems.

It took only 1.5 years for Mk2 to clear all trials, T-90 was put under trials from 1998 and 2000, both in Russia and in India. Following that, the T-90 was purchased in few numbers and put through trials again, that's when teething problems showed up, like the Catherine failing. Once those problems were fixed, massive orders were placed.

2. Separate assembly line was built for Arjun. So there is no interference with T-90 production.

Yes.

3. 124 tanks were delivered between 2007 and 2010. So we can take the higher end of your 20-30 estimate. At 30 per year, the delivery should take 4 years. Can you provide any references for your 8 year figure.

The first tank is to be delivered 2-3 years after contract signature, followed by production of 20-30 tanks a year. You took the best case scenario of 30 tanks a year, but Mk1 was delivered at 20 odd a year. By Feb 2011, only 85 tanks were delivered.

If you look at this link,
Livefist: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

With the orders likely to be finalized towards the end of the year, the first Mk-2 tank will enter operational service in 2016. With HVF Avadi looking at a production rate of 30 tanks a year, all 116 tanks will be delivered by 2020.

The author has assumed contract will be signed in 2012 and all the tanks delivered by 2020. That's 8 years. However the contract was signed this year, 2014, so 8 years from now is 2022.

It was no different with Mk1. Production started in 2004 and ended in 2012.

4. With the war like conditions at Russian periphery, and the need for Russian army to modernize, the situation with T-90 is no longer comfortable. It is more than likely that Russian factories will give preference to local demand.

That war doesn't affect anything, it's over anyway. And the Russian T-90 line is not producing anything for Russia. They can build up very large capacity in a short while, but it doesn't matter since the T-90 is produced in India anyway. We make T-90s at 130-150 a year.

The Russian military is modernizing with a new tank development under the Armata UCP. They plan to produce 500 tanks a year.

So this doesn't affect the T-90 in anyway. Eventually we plan on replacing the Arjun and T-90 lines with the FMBT.

 

[Guest]

@Austin @Twinblade

To keep it short,
235 tanks to be delivered by 2015-16.
418 tanks to be delivered by 2019-20.

354 T-90MS direct purchase by 2018 if the order is made this year.

Anything you guys want to add or remove?

I would doubt the highlighted part- T-90S is already due for upgrade-

And Arjun mk3 with smooth bore gun would be ready by 2019-

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

FMBT will progress as planned. It has not been scrapped. CVRDE has already started the design phase of the new engines. Being a strategic project we don't know what's happening with the rest of the project. The army has put a gag order on all related labs. So until MoD reveals it in the Parliament we just have to clutch at straws.

DRDO has specfied that the engne and transmssion project is being taken on by DRDO on self mission mode basis
Till now ARMY has not issued any SQRs for FMBT nor for Engines transmssions

FMBT will be ready for production by then.

How Tll now Army has not finalised the SQR so how will it be developed ?

Or is the Army agan planning to do another Arjun - It is late - it s not ready our req are urgent - lets import armata / abrams

 

[p2prada]

I was referring to T-90 components that still come from Russia. What is the % of indigenisation in T-90?

85%. Some electronics are imported. Very little or nothing comes from Russia as far as the rest of the tank is concerned. Gun, engine, transmission etc is made in India on license. Armor used is the same as the one in the Arjun. So it's ours. We have been making the same hull for the last 4 decades, so that's fine too.

The new upgrade will replace all the French/Russian/Belarus electronics with Indian/Israeli.

The flaw in Arjun tank story is that it should have never made by HVF. The whole public sector suffers from lack of productivity.

And who is going to make it? TATA? Mahindra? Let them make the FICV first, then we will talk about tanks.

Why does it take 4 years to deliver first tank after order is placed.

It's 3 years. That's how long it takes to gather materials and start cutting metal, followed by construction.

T-90 order was placed in 2006, the first T-90 was delivered in 2009. And this is after most of the facilities were already prepared for its production.

I am surprised that an aircraft - Tejas (which is more complex than a tank) can be delivered 11 months after placing order. Imported components cannot be a problem as Germany is very good in flexible manufacturing (source of engine and transmission).

LCA's production cycle is also 3 years. The order for LCA wasn't placed 11 months ago, it was placed in 2004. Construction of SP-1 and SP-2 began more than 3 years ago, just after IOC-I was given. The same production cycle for MKI is 34 months. It takes 7 months for LCA's assembly versus MKI's 11 months. Rafale's production cycle is also 3 years.

 

[p2prada]

I would doubt the highlighted part- T-90S is already due for upgrade-

The upgrade and the numbers to be built are independent.

And Arjun mk3 with smooth bore gun would be ready by 2019-

Most of the T-90s are meant for the strike corps, so the number of T-90 orders won't decrease. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, T-90 orders are set to increase with new orders for 6 regiments for the NE region and 3 in Ladakh. T-90 is the main battle tank of the army, so its value is greater.

Arjun Mk3 doesn't exist yet. Regardless, FMBT is the future.

 

[Guest]

The upgrade and the numbers to be built are independent.



Most of the T-90s are meant for the strike corps, so the number of T-90 orders won't decrease. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, T-90 orders are set to increase with new orders for 6 regiments for the NE region and 3 in Ladakh. T-90 is the main battle tank of the army, so its value is greater.

Arjun Mk3 doesn't exist yet. Regardless, FMBT is the future.

T-90S require extensive upgrades- and their number is huge-
New T-90S can only be for new strike crops WRT Pakistan border-
Since upgraded T-90S would be about 52 ton- using them in NE would be a logistical mistake-
A Tank vs Tank battle is highly unlikely on the Chinese fronts- so a T-72 would be ideal choice as it has been for a long time-
Long term solution for Chinese front would be FICVs with APS-

Arjun with 120mm smoothbore gun, and other advancements over Mk2 version would be Arjun mk3- It would be able to enter towns and survive town warfare(like Merkava mk4)- Any big T-90S order would only happen If the mk3 version is late- last known to me was that the design is ready and army being consulted on number of crew 3 or 4-

True FMBT which is a concept of 2 crew in capsule with unmanned turret would be ready only by 2025-

 

[sgarg]

85%. Some electronics are imported. Very little or nothing comes from Russia as far as the rest of the tank is concerned. Gun, engine, transmission etc is made in India on license. Armor used is the same as the one in the Arjun. So it's ours. We have been making the same hull for the last 4 decades, so that's fine too.

The new upgrade will replace all the French/Russian/Belarus electronics with Indian/Israeli.

And who is going to make it? TATA? Mahindra? Let them make the FICV first, then we will talk about tanks.

It's 3 years. That's how long it takes to gather materials and start cutting metal, followed by construction.

T-90 order was placed in 2006, the first T-90 was delivered in 2009. And this is after most of the facilities were already prepared for its production.

LCA's production cycle is also 3 years. The order for LCA wasn't placed 11 months ago, it was placed in 2004. Construction of SP-1 and SP-2 began more than 3 years ago, just after IOC-I was given. The same production cycle for MKI is 34 months. It takes 7 months for LCA's assembly versus MKI's 11 months. Rafale's production cycle is also 3 years.

If 85% is made in India as you say, then the time of three years is simply too long. This is also surprising that the government cannot plan acquisitions properly so that unnecessary delays are avoided.

I can assure you that a Tata or Mahindra or and even an Eicher Motors can make a far better tank much faster than HVF any day. Have you ever seen a large public sector company. I have. Poor usage of machines, poor materials management, militant labour, poor quality of outsourced work due to corruption are the highlights of public sector.

 

[p2prada]

T-90S require extensive upgrades- and their number is huge-
New T-90S can only be for new strike crops WRT Pakistan border-

MoD has already approved new T-90s for NE and Ladakh.

Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase | Business Standard News

Since upgraded T-90S would be about 52 ton- using them in NE would be a logistical mistake-

That's BS. The T-90 weighs 48 tons. And what is your take on what we should be using there? The lighter 67 tonnes Arjun Mk2?

A Tank vs Tank battle is highly unlikely on the Chinese fronts- so a T-72 would be ideal choice as it has been for a long time-

You shouldn't make sweeping statements without knowing facts first. 150 T-72s are already being moved to Ladakh. The new tank contract will be for Sikkim.

Long term solution for Chinese front would be FICVs with APS-

Light tanks and APCs have no stopping power.

Arjun with 120mm smoothbore gun, and other advancements over Mk2 version would be Arjun mk3- It would be able to enter towns and survive town warfare(like Merkava mk4)- Any big T-90S order would only happen If the mk3 version is late- last known to me was that the design is ready and army being consulted on number of crew 3 or 4-

There is no Arjun Mk3.